We have more to fear in regards to loss of freedom from our own government than from foreign nations. IJS...FEOS wrote:
So long as we have people who strive to take away those freedoms that define the the natural state of man, we will continue to remember this day.
Daughter's school had a very nice program this morning. I felt the guest speaker's speech was inappropriate for an audience of elementary school children. And he implied that rights are somehow earned. Plus liberal use of the word "hero" and public recognition for voluntary service makes me very uncomfortable.
Heroes do extraordinary things...things that not everyone can do. There's nothing extraordinary about military service. It merely takes the decision to do it--anyone can make that decision.
/soapbox
Yet rights are earned. Perhaps not on an individual basis, but they're a constant development of human history. Voluntary service at least deserves some measure of respect. People who join up help keep the country draft-free. But military service isn't particularly extraordinary until someone does something extraordinary.FEOS wrote:
So long as we have people who strive to take away those freedoms that define the the natural state of man, we will continue to remember this day.
Daughter's school had a very nice program this morning. I felt the guest speaker's speech was inappropriate for an audience of elementary school children. And he implied that rights are somehow earned. Plus liberal use of the word "hero" and public recognition for voluntary service makes me very uncomfortable.
Heroes do extraordinary things...things that not everyone can do. There's nothing extraordinary about military service. It merely takes the decision to do it--anyone can make that decision.
Rights aren't earned. They exist and can only be curtailed or taken away. They must be defended...but they aren't earned. If they were, then not everyone would have the same rights from the start, which we do...at least in this country.unnamednewbie13 wrote:
Yet rights are earned. Perhaps not on an individual basis, but they're a constant development of human history. Voluntary service at least deserves some measure of respect. People who join up help keep the country draft-free. But military service isn't particularly extraordinary until someone does something extraordinary.FEOS wrote:
So long as we have people who strive to take away those freedoms that define the the natural state of man, we will continue to remember this day.
Daughter's school had a very nice program this morning. I felt the guest speaker's speech was inappropriate for an audience of elementary school children. And he implied that rights are somehow earned. Plus liberal use of the word "hero" and public recognition for voluntary service makes me very uncomfortable.
Heroes do extraordinary things...things that not everyone can do. There's nothing extraordinary about military service. It merely takes the decision to do it--anyone can make that decision.
I agree. The reason veteran unemployment is higher than the general rate is because the vast majority of people who go into the military don't have much other opportunities in the first place.But military service isn't particularly extraordinary until someone does something extraordinary.
Yes, because everyone signs up to fight foreign wars. You do understand that the vast majority of people serve during peacetime to act as a deterrent from invasion, yes? If you don't want to grant them respect for the sacrifice they make for you, fine, but understand that your ability to hold that opinion in a free state rests on those sacrifices.Macbeth wrote:
I agree. The reason veteran unemployment is higher than the general rate is because the vast majority of people who go into the military don't have much other opportunities in the first place.But military service isn't particularly extraordinary until someone does something extraordinary.
Furthermore, all of the post cold war wars we fought had nil to do with defending the people of America but instead holding together the empire. I don't have a problem with that but I don't think we should put our vets on a stool and pretend they did anything else than collect a pay check for defending economic interest and empire.
Pre cold war vets I can respect and admire more but beyond that...it feels like a national circle jerk.
I could've finished school via student loans with no problem. I made the choice to enlist instead. I also didn't do it for a paycheck. The $1900 pre-tax income I earned every month is laughably small compared to what I made as a waiter after I got out. A lot of people I met, mostly Southerners joined out of patriotic duty. The army was a viable option for me precisely because I grew up in a family where both of my grandfathers, and my father served in the army and I was raised on war stories. So kindly stop stereotyping because you don't have a clue what you are talking about.Macbeth wrote:
I didn't say they sign up for wars. I said they sign up for the pay check. We don't need bases all over the world to prevent an invasion. Troops in Uzbekistan aren't a threat to China. Our ICBMs are.
As for the coward line...if I recall correctly you didn't join out of national pride so I don't see where you can get off calling me a coward for not needing to drink from the cup of the U.S. tax payer.
Last edited by Jay (2011-11-11 14:06:54)
People join the armed forces for all kinds of reasons. I think it's silly to think everyone joins the military for altruistic reasons. I don't agree with the rationale that people in the armed forces today protect our freedoms. Certainly you could make that argument for world war veterans, and I would agree with that, bu not so much for recent soldiers. That's not a slight against the armed forces either, because by and large they don't make the decisions. If you think our standing peacetime forces are the main deterrent against foreign invasion than you definitely need a lesson in geopolitics.Jay wrote:
Yes, because everyone signs up to fight foreign wars. You do understand that the vast majority of people serve during peacetime to act as a deterrent from invasion, yes? If you don't want to grant them respect for the sacrifice they make for you, fine, but understand that your ability to hold that opinion in a free state rests on those sacrifices.Macbeth wrote:
I agree. The reason veteran unemployment is higher than the general rate is because the vast majority of people who go into the military don't have much other opportunities in the first place.But military service isn't particularly extraordinary until someone does something extraordinary.
Furthermore, all of the post cold war wars we fought had nil to do with defending the people of America but instead holding together the empire. I don't have a problem with that but I don't think we should put our vets on a stool and pretend they did anything else than collect a pay check for defending economic interest and empire.
Pre cold war vets I can respect and admire more but beyond that...it feels like a national circle jerk.
Also, they have every right to call you a coward because you chose not to serve. Deal with it.
Because everyone that joins is a poor kid from Alabama. You do understand that a large portion of the military is college graduates? Do you think the military was their only option? No. Was the military my only option? No. I didn't drop out of community college, I caught pneumonia in my second semester and missed too many classes to complete the term. Regardless, I too had other options. Everyone has options. Some just choose to serve in the military. I never once met anyone that said they joined because they wanted the paycheck though. 18-19-20 year olds generally don't have a difficult time finding work that pays more than the military.Macbeth wrote:
So you didn't drop out if community college and join the military out of frustration? I could have sworn you said that in Jords "life stories".
But whatever. Please come up with something other than "i knew patriots!" and provide some reason why most of our military is drawn from the poor, especially in the south, and also explain all of the great opportunities available in Alabama. Thanks.
Oh, so World War vets deserve respect, but everyone else can piss off? So all the soldiers that served during the Cold War and were always one step away from war with the USSR deserve no respect? What a load of bullshit. The people who originally pushed the opinion you hold did so because they didn't like being looked down on by veterans. Resentment bred marginalization as a reaction.KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
People join the armed forces for all kinds of reasons. I think it's silly to think everyone joins the military for altruistic reasons. I don't agree with the rationale that people in the armed forces today protect our freedoms. Certainly you could make that argument for world war veterans, and I would agree with that, bu not so much for recent soldiers. That's not a slight against the armed forces either, because by and large they don't make the decisions. If you think our standing peacetime forces are the main deterrent against foreign invasion than you definitely need a lesson in geopolitics.Jay wrote:
Yes, because everyone signs up to fight foreign wars. You do understand that the vast majority of people serve during peacetime to act as a deterrent from invasion, yes? If you don't want to grant them respect for the sacrifice they make for you, fine, but understand that your ability to hold that opinion in a free state rests on those sacrifices.Macbeth wrote:
I agree. The reason veteran unemployment is higher than the general rate is because the vast majority of people who go into the military don't have much other opportunities in the first place.
Furthermore, all of the post cold war wars we fought had nil to do with defending the people of America but instead holding together the empire. I don't have a problem with that but I don't think we should put our vets on a stool and pretend they did anything else than collect a pay check for defending economic interest and empire.
Pre cold war vets I can respect and admire more but beyond that...it feels like a national circle jerk.
Also, they have every right to call you a coward because you chose not to serve. Deal with it.
Last edited by Jay (2011-11-11 14:30:54)
Fair enough.KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
I never said everyone else can piss off. Add reading comprehension to that geopolitics lesson. I said the world wars were actually to combat aggression. Did the nation of Afghanistan attack us? Iraq? Vietnam? There's a difference, I think you are smart enough to know this. Let's celebrate veterans and current service members -you'll never see an argument from me against that. Why didn't we attack Kenya after the embassy bombings?
I'm sure I've been around more service members and military than the average joe, and I've never been disrespectful to individuals. My complaints are always with the system itself. Please don't pull a lowing and make my arguments for me.
troops aren't in Uzbekistan anymore, IIRC. And when they were, it wasn't to counter China.Macbeth wrote:
I didn't say they sign up for wars. I said they sign up for the pay check. We don't need bases all over the world to prevent an invasion. Troops in Uzbekistan aren't a threat to China. Our ICBMs are.
This is where you're wrong. Cowardice is an assumption made about non-joiners with no evidence other than that they never volunteered. Should I call my dentist a coward because he went to college instead? Abso-fucking-lutely irrelevant.Jay wrote:
Also, they have every right to call you a coward because you chose not to serve. Deal with it.
No, this is why they're earned. As I said, not on an individual bases, but on the part of society as a whole. As long as, for example, Americans resist the curtailing of one right, they'll have earned its continued existence. There are no hard-coded guarantees of personal rights in the universe. It's all on paper and in the minds of people.FEOS wrote:
Rights aren't earned. They exist and can only be curtailed or taken away. They must be defended...but they aren't earned. If they were, then not everyone would have the same rights from the start, which we do...at least in this country.unnamednewbie13 wrote:
Yet rights are earned. Perhaps not on an individual basis, but they're a constant development of human history. Voluntary service at least deserves some measure of respect. People who join up help keep the country draft-free. But military service isn't particularly extraordinary until someone does something extraordinary.FEOS wrote:
So long as we have people who strive to take away those freedoms that define the the natural state of man, we will continue to remember this day.
Daughter's school had a very nice program this morning. I felt the guest speaker's speech was inappropriate for an audience of elementary school children. And he implied that rights are somehow earned. Plus liberal use of the word "hero" and public recognition for voluntary service makes me very uncomfortable.
Heroes do extraordinary things...things that not everyone can do. There's nothing extraordinary about military service. It merely takes the decision to do it--anyone can make that decision.
No they don't.Jay wrote:
Also, they have every right to call you a coward because you chose not to serve. Deal with it.
