Nixon the last great President?

2011-11-04 15:05:51

#1

Macbeth: Banned; +2,444|5825

I think the last really solid President the U.S. had was Nixon. He's really the last one were both the left and right can agree that he did well in his tenure. Everyone agrees he was a bad person but he did get things done in a manner that no president after was able to. Reagan may have had some success but his presidency was way too decisive and to be quite fair I don't exactly see many great accomplishments. I think Reagan is much like Clinton. They both rode positive waves and could best be credited for not fucking things up. Reagan with the fall of the USSR and Clinton with the 90's economy. Now about the cold war...

I also read an argument from a International relations Phd holder which argued that opening up relations with China was the start of the Soviet Unions terminal decline in international importance and by extension the end of the USSR. Now before someone tries to be cute by pointing out the Soviet Union collapsed economically, the argument made was that normalized relations between the U.S. and the PRC effectively limited Soviet influence to within their own already declining spheres. Yes, they ultimately collapsed economically but the threat of the USSR and communism eating the world ended in '72. In a nutshell- Nixon had the more to do with ending the Soviet Union than any other President.

I also think the end of Nixon could be used as marker for deep shift in U.S. political discourse but that's another issue...

2011-11-04 15:33:33

#2

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5598|London, England

Wage and price controls, destruction of the gold standard, both of which caused the hyperinflation that sank Carter... Created the EPA, which while good in concept, has lately become a bureaucratic tool of the environmental movement to wage war on business... Pushed the expansion of HMOs...

But, he did finally end Vietnam and he did open up trade with China. On balance, I feel that he did far more harm than the good provided by those two events. He basically sucked, but he sucked less than Johnson or Ford or Carter, so like Clinton, he looks good in comparison to his peers.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2011-11-04 15:57:02

#3

Macbeth: Banned; +2,444|5825

We recovered well from the ('73 was it?) recession. The gold standard was going to go eventually and overall it's for the best. The dollar couldn't be the worlds reserve currency if we still held onto the gold standard. The only real argument against fiat currency is the ability for people to easily devalue currency for political purposes. That's not really an issue if you have a responsible political culture. So nope, not holding that against him.

The other event you point to as the thing that destroys the legacy of Nixon was the creation of the EPA...seriously? The thing you just called "good in theory" post Nixon expansion doesn't come anywhere near as much of a world changer as Nixon's other actions. That's like saying Teddy Roosevelt is a horrible President because he created the National park services. Don't be ridiculous.

Last edited by Macbeth (2011-11-04 15:57:45)

2011-11-04 18:49:22

#4

Spearhead: Gulf coast redneck hippy; +731|6929|Tampa Bay Florida

About the whole Watergate thing,

does anyone honestly think that every president does not engage in some illegal activity in one way or the other? Had they never been caught, or had they succeeded in the cover-up, what would we think of Nixon today? The guy who ended the war in Vietnam and defeated the Soviet Union. But nope, he was a crook, so naturally they give the credit to Reagan.

Last edited by Spearhead (2011-11-04 19:07:30)

2011-11-04 19:01:50

#5

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,815|6345|eXtreme to the maX

Jay wrote:
the EPA, which while good in concept, has lately become a bureaucratic tool of the environmental movement to wage war on business...

LOL OK

Fuck Israel

2011-11-04 19:27:45

#6

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5598|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:
Jay wrote:
the EPA, which while good in concept, has lately become a bureaucratic tool of the environmental movement to wage war on business...
LOL OK

Is it sheer coincidence that America lost almost its entire manufacturing sector after it and OSHA passed? Between massive government regulation and unions that fought productivity increases tooth and nail, the flight of manufacturers was inevitable. There was a time when this nation paid the highest wages in the world and still produced the cheapest quality goods in the world. High wages don't preclude low prices when those wages are tethered to productivity. The government from the time of Teddy Roosevelt in small part, and FDR in the extreme, has done everything possible to insert itself into the affairs of private business under the cover of doing so 'in the name of the people' when in reality they've just played on old jealousies in order to gain election. Our economy is fucked because of a series of political hacks coming to power over the past century. This mess isn't Bush's fault, or Obama's fault, it's been building for decades and the OSHA and EPA regulations that Nixon signed off on are just a symptom of the overall problem. He was a shit president, but so are they all.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2011-11-04 21:41:10

#7

Spark: liquid fluoride thorium reactor; +874|6914|Canberra, AUS

Jay wrote:
Wage and price controls, destruction of the gold standard, both of which caused the hyperinflation that sank Carter... Created the EPA, which while good in concept, has lately become a bureaucratic tool of the environmental movement to wage war on business... Pushed the expansion of HMOs...

But, he did finally end Vietnam and he did open up trade with China. On balance, I feel that he did far more harm than the good provided by those two events. He basically sucked, but he sucked less than Johnson or Ford or Carter, so like Clinton, he looks good in comparison to his peers.

Hardly fair for that to count against him, surely?

EDIT: Unless it's a lack of foresight you're decrying.

Last edited by Spark (2011-11-04 21:45:13)

The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
^{~ Richard Feynman}

2011-11-05 05:48:29

#8

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5598|London, England

Spark wrote:
Jay wrote:
Wage and price controls, destruction of the gold standard, both of which caused the hyperinflation that sank Carter... Created the EPA, which while good in concept, has lately become a bureaucratic tool of the environmental movement to wage war on business... Pushed the expansion of HMOs...

But, he did finally end Vietnam and he did open up trade with China. On balance, I feel that he did far more harm than the good provided by those two events. He basically sucked, but he sucked less than Johnson or Ford or Carter, so like Clinton, he looks good in comparison to his peers.
Hardly fair for that to count against him, surely?

EDIT: Unless it's a lack of foresight you're decrying.

There were plenty of examples of autocratic bureaucracies run amok prior to him signing the legislation. All politicians care about are short term chances to gain votes. After that it becomes someone else's problem.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2011-11-05 05:55:29

#9

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,815|6345|eXtreme to the maX

Jay wrote:
Is it sheer coincidence that America lost almost its entire manufacturing sector after it and OSHA passed? Between massive government regulation and unions that fought productivity increases tooth and nail, the flight of manufacturers was inevitable. There was a time when this nation paid the highest wages in the world and still produced the cheapest quality goods in the world. High wages don't preclude low prices when those wages are tethered to productivity. The government from the time of Teddy Roosevelt in small part, and FDR in the extreme, has done everything possible to insert itself into the affairs of private business under the cover of doing so 'in the name of the people' when in reality they've just played on old jealousies in order to gain election. Our economy is fucked because of a series of political hacks coming to power over the past century. This mess isn't Bush's fault, or Obama's fault, it's been building for decades and the OSHA and EPA regulations that Nixon signed off on are just a symptom of the overall problem. He was a shit president, but so are they all.

Handled properly there would have been no problem, simply make foreign comapanies toe the line on environmental production or don't let them sell in your market. Products sold in the US have meet a whole set of other (mostly daft) standards, this would just be one more.

Corporations don't like unions or expensive labour - when there's cheaper labour available elsewhere - and consumers have been educated to prefer cheapness over quality.
These are the reasons production has moved offshore, EPA is virtually irrelevant.

Fuck Israel

2011-11-05 06:05:50

#10

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5598|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:
Jay wrote:
Is it sheer coincidence that America lost almost its entire manufacturing sector after it and OSHA passed? Between massive government regulation and unions that fought productivity increases tooth and nail, the flight of manufacturers was inevitable. There was a time when this nation paid the highest wages in the world and still produced the cheapest quality goods in the world. High wages don't preclude low prices when those wages are tethered to productivity. The government from the time of Teddy Roosevelt in small part, and FDR in the extreme, has done everything possible to insert itself into the affairs of private business under the cover of doing so 'in the name of the people' when in reality they've just played on old jealousies in order to gain election. Our economy is fucked because of a series of political hacks coming to power over the past century. This mess isn't Bush's fault, or Obama's fault, it's been building for decades and the OSHA and EPA regulations that Nixon signed off on are just a symptom of the overall problem. He was a shit president, but so are they all.
Handled properly there would have been no problem, simply make foreign comapanies toe the line on environmental production or don't let them sell in your market. Products sold in the US have meet a whole set of other (mostly daft) standards, this would just be one more.

Corporations don't like unions or expensive labour - when there's cheaper labour available elsewhere - and consumers have been educated to prefer cheapness over quality.
These are the reasons production has moved offshore, EPA is virtually irrelevant.

You can have both. John D Rockefeller cornered the market of oil refining with his company Standard Oil back in the late 1800s and into the 1900s. At his peak, he controlled 90% of the domestic oil market, and he did so without a single government subsidy. His entire business philosophy was based on increasing productivity and efficiency. Instead of cornering the market by lowering quality and prices, he raised the quality and still lowered the prices. His competitors hated him because they could not compete with him, so they badmouthed him in the press and Teddy Roosevelt, who had ran on the populist idea of 'Trust Busting' saw to it that the company was broken up by the Sherman Anti-Trust Act, even though his market share at this point had dwindled into the 60% range due to his competitors learning from his actions. So you can have cheap, quality goods, made by high paid employees. It's been proven.

As for people being educated to prefer cheapness... false. When there is no discernible difference between two products, people should choose the lower priced one. To do otherwise is asinine. If there is a marked difference in quality, people will choose the quality every time. People shop with their eyes first, not their wallets.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2011-11-05 06:23:08

#11

Cybargs: Moderated; +2,285|6956

Yeah I read up how Standard Oil would lose its monopoly status anyway regardless of Sherman anti-trust act. What about the actions Teddy took against the meat packing industry? I've read nothing but good in raising the quality and standards of meat on that part. Yeah rockefeller was really hated, but that guy was a smart ass businessman.

https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png

2011-11-05 06:33:08

#12

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5598|London, England

The meat packing was a popular reaction to "The Jungle" by Upton Sinclair. He wrote it as a Marxist manual to get people to sympathize with the plight of the workers, but instead, his graphic depictions of workers losing limbs in meat grinders is what people focused on which led to the creation of the FDA. I'm not saying that all regulation is bad. Regulation that prevents or punishes fraud or theft is good. The meat packers would fall under what I would characterize fraud.

Sinclair was pissed off that his Marxist message was completely ignored btw

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2011-11-05 07:03:38

#13

Spearhead: Gulf coast redneck hippy; +731|6929|Tampa Bay Florida

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Sta … ef_scandal

As a result, most of the meat arriving in Cuba was found to be so poorly preserved, chemically adulterated and/or spoiled that it was toxic and dangerous to consume. The meat caused an unrecorded number of illnesses and death from dysentery and food poisoning, having an especially deadly effect on the thousands already weakened by the epidemics of malaria and yellow fever which were ravaging the unprotected American troops and would eventually kill twice as many men as the bullets of the Spanish.

2011-11-05 10:46:05

#14

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6650|'Murka

I'd say Nixon is under appreciated for his foreign policy acumen due to the overshadowing of the Watergate scandal.

The last great POTUS? That's a stretch.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

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