Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5598|London, England
Cancer treatment has made great progress in recent decades, but the tragedy is that so much of our effort to combat this scourge is just that: treatment. Once a disease appears, there is only so much that can be done. It would be far cheaper, more effective, and less traumatic to prevent it.

A vaccine for cancer would be a triumph for public health. Did I say "would be"? Actually, it is. Such a vaccine exists for one of the biggest killers of women. But Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-Minn.) is against it, and she's not alone.

Two different vaccines block transmission of the human papillomavirus (HPV), which causes 70 percent of all cervical cancer in this country, as well as most anal cancers and some cancers of the throat, vagina, and penis.

Each year, says the National Cancer Institute, more than 12,000 American women are diagnosed with cervical cancer alone, and some 4,000 will die of it. That's not counting the genital warts HPV can cause.

It's a nasty but very common bug that the world would be better off without. Universal inoculation would be a huge step toward eradicating it and the suffering it causes.

But there is a big impediment to its use: HPV is sexually transmitted, which makes the vaccine controversial—especially because to achieve maximum effectiveness, it has to be administered before the recipient becomes sexually active. And in this country, 6 percent of youngsters have sex by the age of 13.

So the federal Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices recommends that females get the vaccine no later than age 12. As governor of Texas, Rick Perry required that girls be immunized.

He defended then the mandate as "responsible health and fiscal policy that has the potential to significantly reduce cases of cervical cancer and mitigate future medical costs." Bad for cancer, boon for the budget. What's not to like? But Perry has retreated under attack from fellow conservatives.

One allegation is that he made the decision to repay drug maker Merck, a longtime campaign contributor. That might explain his unusual willingness to mandate the vaccine even though public health groups were not in favor of compulsion.

But Bachmann also accuses him of heartless cruelty. "To have innocent 12-year-old girls be forced to have a government injection through an executive order is just flat-out wrong," said Bachmann.

Oh? Children are routinely subjected to "government injections" when they get compulsory inoculations for polio, diphtheria, measles, and other illnesses. Most states require kids to be immunized against hepatitis B, which is commonly contracted sexually. What's cruel about being protected from cancer?

Bachmann insists the vaccine is "a very dangerous drug." After the debate, she reported, she met a woman whose daughter developed mental retardation in reaction to the shot.

Would she believe someone who told her the vaccine came from space aliens? The head of the American Academy of Pediatrics, made up of physicians who devote their lives to protecting innocent children, said of Bachmann's claim, "There is absolutely no scientific validity to this statement." It notes that the vaccine has "an excellent safety record."

Social conservatives also fear that the inoculation condones and encourages adolescent sex. But if the danger of pregnancy, AIDS, and other diseases is not enough to deter a teenager, we can assume HPV will not be a deal-breaker.

Bachmann and others detest the mandate as an invasion of parental rights. But we don't leave it to parents to decide whether to inoculate against other diseases. We require immunization to protect children (and everyone else) from the consequences of bad parental choices. As early as 1905, the Supreme Court has rejected the notion that anyone has a constitutional right not to be vaccinated.

Parents are entitled to preach, demand, and enforce chastity for their children. But if a child spurns that option, the penalty should not be a deadly, avoidable disease. Besides, even abstinent youngsters can be infected -- through sexual assault.

The mandate is hardly beyond criticism. When Perry signed his order, I faulted him for taking the compulsory approach, not because it was an outrageous violation of liberty, but because voluntary efforts had not been given time to succeed and the mandate might provoke resistance. That fear turned out to be accurate, but it doesn't make him a Big Government bully.

Perry was overzealous in combating a real danger. Bachmann is overzealous in hyping phony ones.
http://reason.com/archives/2011/09/15/b … cine-panic

Basically her argument boils down to two things: 1) it's bad for the government to mandate innoculations because it's a form of Big Government and takes away the right to choose and 2) because it has to do with sexually transmitted diseases, and she's a religious loon that believes that abstinence only education and waiting for marriage before sex are the ideal, that the vaccine is morally wrong.

Normally I'm in the rah rah government is bad camp, but on this topic, I feel that what Perry did was the right thing. If we have the chance to eradicate certain diseases we should take those steps required to do so. It also plays into the whole 'limiting people from damaging others' part of libertarian philosophy. Even without a philosophical basis, it just makes too much damned sense.

As for the second bit, well, that lunacy stands on its own and really needs no explanation. The woman is a fucking idiot.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5825


relevant
13urnzz
Banned
+5,830|6737

Jay wrote:

I feel that what Perry did was the right thing.
i don't. by executive decree, he enriched a special interest that at the time was the sole provider. he may have admitted it years later, running for president ( in the last debate he admitted so) he could have at the time legislated it rather than decreeing it.

O'Bachman is an idiot, recounting how a bystander told her the story of mental retardation as a result of allegedly inoculating. she would've served her cause better by having facts, or hammering Bush 2 on his Imperial Act.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5598|London, England

13urnzz wrote:

Jay wrote:

I feel that what Perry did was the right thing.
i don't. by executive decree, he enriched a special interest that at the time was the sole provider. he may have admitted it years later, running for president ( in the last debate he admitted so) he could have at the time legislated it rather than decreeing it.

O'Bachman is an idiot, recounting how a bystander told her the story of mental retardation as a result of allegedly inoculating. she would've served her cause better by having facts, or hammering Bush 2 on his Imperial Act.
Regardless of the money involved for the manufacturer, I still think it was the right thing to do.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
13urnzz
Banned
+5,830|6737

Jay wrote:

Regardless of the money involved for the manufacturer, I still think it was the right thing to do.
i don't. you don't get the public to get behind a major health issue by decree, you enlist their support.

you sir, are not the libertarian we were looking for.
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6914|Canberra, AUS
haha big call
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5598|London, England

13urnzz wrote:

Jay wrote:

Regardless of the money involved for the manufacturer, I still think it was the right thing to do.
i don't. you don't get the public to get behind a major health issue by decree, you enlist their support.

you sir, are not the libertarian we were looking for.
Meh, when it prevents a communicable disease it becomes a common issue, not a personal one. I have no problem with mandated MMR shots either
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6840|132 and Bush

How do you feel about the FDA?
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5598|London, England

Kmar wrote:

How do you feel about the FDA?
I think they're overzealous to the point of being retarded in some cases, but I'm glad someone is inspecting the beef I put on my grill. Could it be done by supermarkets themselves? Yes, probably, and a better, more thorough job would probably be done because they would eat the blame (and lawsuits) if they sold tainted meat.

Same goes for drugs. I don't trust drug manufacturers to have an ounce of morals when it comes to the garbage they pedal.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5825

Jay wrote:

Yes, probably, and a better, more thorough job would probably be done because they would eat the blame (and lawsuits) if they sold tainted meat.
In a rational world. Otherwise, nope.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6840|132 and Bush

The FDA spends the majority of their time covering their asses.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5598|London, England

Kmar wrote:

The FDA spends the majority of their time covering their asses.
I'm aware. I still like the scientific buffer between what people sell and what people consume though.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6840|132 and Bush

Covering your ass can be a good thing if it is reasonably proactive and not reactive. It means there is accountability.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
13urnzz
Banned
+5,830|6737

Jay wrote:

13urnzz wrote:

Jay wrote:

Regardless of the money involved for the manufacturer, I still think it was the right thing to do.
i don't. you don't get the public to get behind a major health issue by decree, you enlist their support.

you sir, are not the libertarian we were looking for.
Meh, when it prevents a communicable disease it becomes a common issue, not a personal one. I have no problem with mandated MMR shots either
i was vaccinated at an early age, and certainly wouldn't argue the benefits of vaccination.

despite a motorcycle wreck that almost took my left ear off, i voted No when California passed a helmet law.

when California framed the debate about the helmet law, they said it was to indemnify the State against health costs. they did not plead for the unity of the whole, they mandated against the freedom of the individual.

Parry was wrong, and O'Bachman was right to call him out on it.

btw, how much is Parry going for these days?
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6840|132 and Bush

Have you guys seen the vaccination episode of Penn and Teller's Bullshit? It really destroys the idea that you should not vaccinate.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Trotskygrad
бля
+354|6239|Vortex Ring State

Kmar wrote:

Have you guys seen the vaccination episode of Penn and Teller's Bullshit? It really destroys the idea that you should not vaccinate.
when the major spokesman for the "vaccine/autism" link is a former playmate it really destroyed the credibility.

Didn't even go into med school, went into nursing

Last edited by Trotskygrad (2011-09-15 19:46:38)

Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6840|132 and Bush

Trotskygrad wrote:

Kmar wrote:

Have you guys seen the vaccination episode of Penn and Teller's Bullshit? It really destroys the idea that you should not vaccinate.
when the major spokesman for the "vaccine/autism" link is a former playmate it really destroyed the credibility.

Didn't even go into med school, went into nursing
Well, you'd certainly think so. However, in a culture of celebrity worship that is not always the case.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Trotskygrad
бля
+354|6239|Vortex Ring State

Kmar wrote:

Trotskygrad wrote:

Kmar wrote:

Have you guys seen the vaccination episode of Penn and Teller's Bullshit? It really destroys the idea that you should not vaccinate.
when the major spokesman for the "vaccine/autism" link is a former playmate it really destroyed the credibility.

Didn't even go into med school, went into nursing
Well, you'd certainly think so. However, in a culture of celebrity worship that is not always the case.
considering most people I know come from an academic background, I really have doubts about the intelligence of most celebrities.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6840|132 and Bush

Trotskygrad wrote:

considering most people I know come from an academic background, I really have doubts about the intelligence of most celebrities.
Well check you out.

lol
Xbone Stormsurgezz
CC-Marley
Member
+407|7068

Jay wrote:

13urnzz wrote:

Jay wrote:

Regardless of the money involved for the manufacturer, I still think it was the right thing to do.
i don't. you don't get the public to get behind a major health issue by decree, you enlist their support.

you sir, are not the libertarian we were looking for.
Meh, when it prevents a communicable disease it becomes a common issue, not a personal one. I have no problem with mandated MMR shots either
Prevents 4 of over 30 types of HPV.
13urnzz
Banned
+5,830|6737

CC-Marley wrote:

Prevents 4 of over 30 types of HPV.
lol, as a 40+ yr old man, i'll gladly trade my rights for the HPV vaccine!

seriously, i think when you*re a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Ben Franklin wrote:

Those that would trade freedom for security, lose both, and deserve neither
disclaimer - i voted against those that voted for the Patriot Act.
Cheeky_Ninja06
Member
+52|6972|Cambridge, England

Jay wrote:

13urnzz wrote:

Jay wrote:

I feel that what Perry did was the right thing.
i don't. by executive decree, he enriched a special interest that at the time was the sole provider. he may have admitted it years later, running for president ( in the last debate he admitted so) he could have at the time legislated it rather than decreeing it.

O'Bachman is an idiot, recounting how a bystander told her the story of mental retardation as a result of allegedly inoculating. she would've served her cause better by having facts, or hammering Bush 2 on his Imperial Act.
Regardless of the money involved for the manufacturer, I still think it was the right thing to do.
Completely agree. Its a no brainer.

Not doing it just to play politics is retarded.

Last edited by Cheeky_Ninja06 (2011-09-16 04:49:25)

13urnzz
Banned
+5,830|6737

Cheeky_Ninja06 wrote:

Completely agree. Its a no brainer.
We are all in 100% agreement!

Cheeky_Ninja06 wrote:

Not doing it just to play politics is retarded.
Until you realize how it was done. Cervical cancer is not a communicable disease, the HPV is. To mandate by executive decree that 12 year old girls be vaccinated against a sexually transmitted disease is going to cause some  . . . on second thought, you*re right. the government does know what's best for us, and to exclude the Legislature was exactly the right move.

we should abolish state legislatures and do everything by Executive order. fuck the states' Supreme Courts too. from now on, our ballots could have just two names on them, voting would be easier, and we could cut costs by just employing a Governor in the state. everyone would be represented, less red tape, and once a year he could invite the populace into the capitol to kiss the ring on his finger.
Cheeky_Ninja06
Member
+52|6972|Cambridge, England
meh mentioning 12 year old girls and sexual disease is emotive politicising. Its irrelevant, a vaccination that can significantly reduce cancer that has been tested as being safe should be enforced.

The very 1st vaccine was developed for small pox and involved injecting a disease found in cows into people (hence the name vaccine ) This wasn't very popular and feeling was that people would turn into cows, it was wrong to mix animals and people etc etc etc. Ultimately im pretty sure it became illegal to refuse the vaccine because of the consequences on society.

I know the square root of sod all about the US electoral / legislative process but throwing out the vaccine because the boxes were ticked in the wrong order is plain dumb.

Last edited by Cheeky_Ninja06 (2011-09-16 09:02:43)

FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6650|'Murka

As posted earlier in another thread, 12 is the optimum age for efficacy. It's also (generally) before kids start becoming sexually active, which would obviate the whole purpose of the vaccine. Additionally, it was made mandatory (with an opt out) to ensure that insurance would have to pay for it, making it more broadly available, particularly to lower-income families.

The method of implementation (executive order vs legislation) is the real problem...not the science or the motive.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

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