The paying issue is coming up on the other end of the argument. We're paying for a war on Iraq that's very very expensive, we're paying for tons of services out there that don't benifit the american people in any way shape or form. We have the worst deficentcy we have ever had and we go and forgive alot of countries outstanding debts. Our country is a business and it's making mistakes that might put us in line for what happened to Russia.
We'd better do something - those baby boomers are going to get awefully heavy (on our backs) in a few years... I don't know what the answer is, but I would like a choice... Universal scares me because (by definition) it limits choice to 1.cpt.fass1 wrote:
It is becoming an issue because alot of other countries are going this route and more corperations are moving to those countries because it cuts operation costs. Lower operation costs for companies means more profit more money just to help people out. Majority of the people out their don't pay fully for their health insurance anyway. It's a company cost and if we cut those costs there should be higher saleries for and more of a compitition in the world market.
But do you see my point for this whole discusion it's a truth alot of other countries are going to A universal plan and we should really be leading the pack. We should be the worlds superpower and lead by example, get some working government systems in place.
OK all, I guess its time for a healthcare worker to get into this fray. I work as a paramedic at one of the top 5 pediatric hospitals in the USA. Interestingly, we’re ranked the same in the country as in the world. Perhaps the healthcare here isn’t on the downhill slide some here would like to think it is.
I work on transport, and in the ER. When on transport, I fly or drive all over the country (and lately, North America) to pick up or deliver patients. My hospital is one of 2 in the country that has both helicopters AND airplanes that are capable of transporting a patient on ECMO. Wiki.
The treatments we develop and protocols we implement on a daily basis are setting the standard for the world with regards to pediatric patients. We are not world class, we are the class of the world.
The US has, without doubt, the best healthcare system on the planet. Sure, its more expensive. We can afford it. The breakthroughs that we make here are duplicated in hospitals everywhere else. Its just like a computer. The newest gadgets are the most expensive. There’s no difference, comparatively, between a top of the line video card and a top of the line MRI. You pay a premium for the best in either case.
Now, about socialized medicine. As a practitioner, I think it’s a horrible idea. We already have such a severe shortage of nurses and other medical personnel in this country, we need to do everything we can to encourage people to enter the field. In this wonderful capitalist system of ours, that means money. If an ER or ICU nurse could make the same amount of money doing something less stressful, like, say, a bank teller, then they will.
An RN in Canada makes about $35K US a year. Link. Here in the US, that same RN will make $45K. Link. The pay difference is the same for medics, profusionists, CRNA’s, and every other medical profession. Why, you ask? Is the work any different? No, but here, we reward innovation and hard work. In Canada, your hallowed model, salaries are artificially capped to keep the government from having to increase taxes. I personally know RNs who make $80K a year. They’re good at what they do, and they have an impetus to make themselves better.
Those surgeons you complain about making a half million dollars a year? Those guys are at the pinnacle of their profession. Students come from all over the world to learn from them, so that they can go back to France, or Russia, or Japan, or wherever and practice. The average medical student graduates over $200K in debt from medical school. How on earth is he or she going to pay that kind of sum off AND provide for his or her family when his starting salary is artificially capped at $75K a year? I know WELDERS who make more than that! Do you really want the guy cutting open your chest to make less than a good welder?
OK, that’s enough for now. Just think guys. Competition is a good thing.
I work on transport, and in the ER. When on transport, I fly or drive all over the country (and lately, North America) to pick up or deliver patients. My hospital is one of 2 in the country that has both helicopters AND airplanes that are capable of transporting a patient on ECMO. Wiki.
The treatments we develop and protocols we implement on a daily basis are setting the standard for the world with regards to pediatric patients. We are not world class, we are the class of the world.
The US has, without doubt, the best healthcare system on the planet. Sure, its more expensive. We can afford it. The breakthroughs that we make here are duplicated in hospitals everywhere else. Its just like a computer. The newest gadgets are the most expensive. There’s no difference, comparatively, between a top of the line video card and a top of the line MRI. You pay a premium for the best in either case.
Now, about socialized medicine. As a practitioner, I think it’s a horrible idea. We already have such a severe shortage of nurses and other medical personnel in this country, we need to do everything we can to encourage people to enter the field. In this wonderful capitalist system of ours, that means money. If an ER or ICU nurse could make the same amount of money doing something less stressful, like, say, a bank teller, then they will.
An RN in Canada makes about $35K US a year. Link. Here in the US, that same RN will make $45K. Link. The pay difference is the same for medics, profusionists, CRNA’s, and every other medical profession. Why, you ask? Is the work any different? No, but here, we reward innovation and hard work. In Canada, your hallowed model, salaries are artificially capped to keep the government from having to increase taxes. I personally know RNs who make $80K a year. They’re good at what they do, and they have an impetus to make themselves better.
Those surgeons you complain about making a half million dollars a year? Those guys are at the pinnacle of their profession. Students come from all over the world to learn from them, so that they can go back to France, or Russia, or Japan, or wherever and practice. The average medical student graduates over $200K in debt from medical school. How on earth is he or she going to pay that kind of sum off AND provide for his or her family when his starting salary is artificially capped at $75K a year? I know WELDERS who make more than that! Do you really want the guy cutting open your chest to make less than a good welder?
OK, that’s enough for now. Just think guys. Competition is a good thing.
I don't understand this argument. You talk about how bad the deficit is in a thread where you want the gov't to pay for "free" health care for everyone. That would just increase the deficit or cause our taxes to be increased, which would mean the health care isn't free anymore. Then you couldn't choose (as you do now) to not get insurance and spend that money on other things like debt. Instead you would be forced into a gov't plan that will probably be a lot more inefficient than our current system (generally anything taken over by the government is). Plus you will pay for other people's health care in addition to yours. I think I would prefer to keep the system we have, where I pay for my insurance and no one else's.cpt.fass1 wrote:
The paying issue is coming up on the other end of the argument. We're paying for a war on Iraq that's very very expensive, we're paying for tons of services out there that don't benifit the american people in any way shape or form. We have the worst deficentcy we have ever had and we go and forgive alot of countries outstanding debts. Our country is a business and it's making mistakes that might put us in line for what happened to Russia.
Good point, plus our hospitals have lots of Canadians coming down to " Visit ". Why is that?wanderlost wrote:
I realize you may think I'm new - but I'm actually a reformed "lurker" (since December), I just can't sit idly by anymore while 12 year olds keep making fools out of themselves talking about topics like this... So here it goes...
There are laws in the United States which require hospitals and doctors to provide treatment regardless of one's ability to pay. I believe that most would say that this is generally a good idea. In addition to these laws, the US has medicare and medicaid to ensure old/poor people still receive basic care. Medicaid, and Medicare would be considered (to most) a form of socialized medicine.
If that isn't enough for you, then please ask your self what would a "more" socialized medicine add to our current situation? Even if you agree with the notion that a citizen has a "right" to basic health care - where does that end - elective surgery? Define elective... (breast implants, sex changes, how about a tonsillectomy, or getting your tubes tied)?
Wouldn't it be fair to say that anyone who really wants treatment in the US can get it? No? Go visit Detroit Receiving hospital and take a look at the people receiving treatment in this facility. Less than 40% of the emergency room / urgent care patients you see here will pay a penny (or more) towards the bill. (Interesting side note - Detroit Receiving is one of many hospitals that the USMC use to train their corpsmen in GSW treatment)
One last point for those noobs who feel that medical insurance companies earn Exxon Mobil-like profits... Did you know that Blue Cross Blue Shield is a non-profit company? They are, since 1972 (at least in Michigan). Visit HAP's website and download their annual report... What was their profit margin? Now compare this to a company like Geico... Still think medicine is profitable for anyone other than doctors (and lawyers)? Besides, what does profit have to do with one's perceived right to universal care?
** edited "e" in "Mobil" - spell check added that by mistake **
Well is not that Reason enough to let hillary clinton " make it even better "?blisteringsilence wrote:
We are not world class, we are the class of the world.
The US has, without doubt, the best healthcare system on the planet. Sure, its more expensive. We can afford it. The breakthroughs that we make here are duplicated in hospitals everywhere else. Its just like a computer. The newest gadgets are the most expensive. There’s no difference, comparatively, between a top of the line video card and a top of the line MRI. You pay a premium for the best in either case.
.
Look at the track record of results that liberal programs have produced.
Name your three favorite ones ! Parol, Public Housing, Welfare,
They all help elevate those in need and run like clock work.
Last edited by Horseman 77 (2006-05-19 08:18:04)
Didnt Bill Clinton try to pass a bill for federalized healthcare? If its the same thing, in my opinion it would be insane. I would rather pay bills and when I go to the doctor, pay for services, and pay my insurance premium every month, rather than go to a hospital that is run by the government, where chances are, the healthcare that I pay for probably wont be as good. If youve ever heard stories of military hospitals and doctors, they arent the best. And guess who theyre owned by. I dont want hospitals to be federalize and my taxes go through the roof. Its cheaper to pay for insurance premiums that it would be to pay taxes to the goverment to run a shit hospital.
the answer to qeus. 3 was what ? " a sort of government health insurance " ?KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
I never said they were new ideas. Original thought and new ideas are two different thingsDarth_Fleder wrote:
KEN-JENNINGS,
1. These are not NEW ideas.
2. It is easier to promote socialism than it is to be responsible for yourself, it puts your burden onto society.
3. Come up with better alternatives and I'll give all kinds of credit.
It is easier to promote socialism than be responsible? And what are you basing this on? Its easier to be irresponsible than responsible, no doubt, but how does promoting socialism mean I'm not responsible?
This idea is an alternative. I never said it was the best way, but I am sick of people supporting the status quo for no other reason than that it is what we have now. Socialized Healthcare could work. It would take a massive government and public effort, something that would not happen overnight, but it could work. We could have a sort of government health insurance, and a private service both at once. And before you provide the link to the Canadian case study, I read it already. There are good points that it makes, and there are also presuppositions that the author makes about socialized healthcare not relating to the Canadian case study.
EDIT: I pay for my own healthcare. I am not some person who does not have real-life experience in this sort of thing. I don't want to support freeloaders more than anyone else does. However, I believe it should be a right to get basic health coverage for everyone.
Would this actually work or be an other useless, over staffed, top heavy, agency, a bottemless pit for tax dollars,
that just needs " One tax to fix it once and for all "
( repeat every four years )
I say proceed with extreme caution
Last edited by Horseman 77 (2006-05-19 08:16:58)
Yes, they do have problems, but the so called "conservatives" do the same thing, it's just called corporate welfare.Horseman 77 wrote:
Well is not that Reason enough to let hillary clinton " make it even better "?blisteringsilence wrote:
We are not world class, we are the class of the world.
The US has, without doubt, the best healthcare system on the planet. Sure, its more expensive. We can afford it. The breakthroughs that we make here are duplicated in hospitals everywhere else. Its just like a computer. The newest gadgets are the most expensive. There’s no difference, comparatively, between a top of the line video card and a top of the line MRI. You pay a premium for the best in either case.
.
Look at the track record of results that liberal programs have produced.
Name your three favorite ones ! Parol, Public Housing, Welfare,
They all help elevate those in need and run like clock work.
Well with that argument i was stateing how we need to prioritise our current budget, we need to stop trying to control third world countries and let them come into their own. I understand that there would be a cost for health care and if we wantted to keep it at the top it would be expensive, but probably not as expensive as rebuilding a country.atlvolunteer wrote:
I don't understand this argument. You talk about how bad the deficit is in a thread where you want the gov't to pay for "free" health care for everyone. That would just increase the deficit or cause our taxes to be increased, which would mean the health care isn't free anymore. Then you couldn't choose (as you do now) to not get insurance and spend that money on other things like debt. Instead you would be forced into a gov't plan that will probably be a lot more inefficient than our current system (generally anything taken over by the government is). Plus you will pay for other people's health care in addition to yours. I think I would prefer to keep the system we have, where I pay for my insurance and no one else's.cpt.fass1 wrote:
The paying issue is coming up on the other end of the argument. We're paying for a war on Iraq that's very very expensive, we're paying for tons of services out there that don't benifit the american people in any way shape or form. We have the worst deficentcy we have ever had and we go and forgive alot of countries outstanding debts. Our country is a business and it's making mistakes that might put us in line for what happened to Russia.
that was my point that there's crazy amounts of spending on other country's and it seems like more and more of our tax money isn't being recycled into our own country.
mealy mouthed blather.Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:
Yes, they do have problems, but the so called "conservatives" do the same thing, it's just called corporate welfare.Horseman 77 wrote:
Well is not that Reason enough to let hillary clinton " make it even better "?blisteringsilence wrote:
We are not world class, we are the class of the world.
The US has, without doubt, the best healthcare system on the planet. Sure, its more expensive. We can afford it. The breakthroughs that we make here are duplicated in hospitals everywhere else. Its just like a computer. The newest gadgets are the most expensive. There’s no difference, comparatively, between a top of the line video card and a top of the line MRI. You pay a premium for the best in either case.
.
Look at the track record of results that liberal programs have produced.
Name your three favorite ones ! Parol, Public Housing, Welfare,
They all help elevate those in need and run like clock work.
Corperations hire people who pay taxes who become consumers who boost the economy so cooperations do better and hire more people who pay taxes, etc. A rising tide lifts all boats.
Money spent on welfare and housing is squanderd and wasted and never shows a return.
This money is wasted. It must END.
Again I ask, were is their resume' ?