Until the US wants to do more to intervene in the internal disaster Mexico's going through, it really has no place to criticize laws like that.
Make the penalties (and enforcement) against the applicable crimes that much stronger.Superior Mind wrote:
Because they are especially targeted. It is more of an offense to a society to continue a bad trend, rather than to commit a less common crime that doesn't feed such a bloated endemic.
But word it such that it applies to all possible victims - not just women.
Thus, the law provides enhanced protection to the Mexican women, yet avoids future discrimination.
Two separate ideas there.unnamednewbie13 wrote:
Until the US wants to do more to intervene in the internal disaster Mexico's going through, it really has no place to criticize laws like that.
One is whether or not we should intervene in Mexico's internal disaster.
Two is whether or not we are permitted to have an objective opinion on the matter.
"Having little place to criticize" only means what it means. I have little place to criticize a ton of the things that I've spoken against, so go ahead and keep your opinions on that. I'm not trying to stop you.
If you read it again, it's more one idea than two. "Until A is met, B is silly." Also,
If you read it again, it's more one idea than two. "Until A is met, B is silly." Also,
it really has
Any experts on Mexican law or culture here? Or are we just sitting back judging their system and laws by our own American standards?
It's easy to bitch about legal discrimination against men in another country when the one you live in has the two genders on equal footing. In Mexican, Hispanic, other non-American, and non-Western cultures the world over, women don't have the de facto equality they enjoy here and in Europe. That's why a law increasing the penalty for committing a crime against a women in a country where crime against women is a cultural norm is fine. Think of the law as plugging a hole in the system.
As for "why not just raise penalties across the board?" Probably for the same reasons it isn't done here in regards to our own hate crime laws. Either the political will doesn't exist or there are cultural blocks still in place.
Finally since none of us our Mexican legal experts how do we even know that there are any gender related crimes laws in Mexico that resemble our hate crime laws in the U.S.? The only hint we have of anything like that is the following lines in the article.
Hell, a google search for "gender crime law mexico" just links me to page after page after page of the OP's news article. The whole OP the subsequent debate over gender crime laws could just be for all we know a debate over an AP reporter's choice of words and our willingness to jump to conclusions that conform to our narrow world view.
But we will never know because non of us are Mexican legal experts.
fuck
It's easy to bitch about legal discrimination against men in another country when the one you live in has the two genders on equal footing. In Mexican, Hispanic, other non-American, and non-Western cultures the world over, women don't have the de facto equality they enjoy here and in Europe. That's why a law increasing the penalty for committing a crime against a women in a country where crime against women is a cultural norm is fine. Think of the law as plugging a hole in the system.
As for "why not just raise penalties across the board?" Probably for the same reasons it isn't done here in regards to our own hate crime laws. Either the political will doesn't exist or there are cultural blocks still in place.
Finally since none of us our Mexican legal experts how do we even know that there are any gender related crimes laws in Mexico that resemble our hate crime laws in the U.S.? The only hint we have of anything like that is the following lines in the article.
It could be that there are no gender crime laws in Mexico and the police are just looking into whether the two naked female victims were targeted because they were women and ticked off a serial killers fetish or because they were reporters with a business.Authorities are investigating the killings of two women as gender crimes after their bound, naked bodies were found in a Mexico City park, the capital's chief prosecutor said Friday.
Mexico City law requires prosecutors to investigate such crimes involving women as gender-related, said Miguel Mancera.
But investigators will not ignore other potential motives, including possible connections to a money-exchange business owned by one of the victims or the fact that both women had been journalists.
Hell, a google search for "gender crime law mexico" just links me to page after page after page of the OP's news article. The whole OP the subsequent debate over gender crime laws could just be for all we know a debate over an AP reporter's choice of words and our willingness to jump to conclusions that conform to our narrow world view.
But we will never know because non of us are Mexican legal experts.
fuck
Last edited by Macbeth (2011-09-04 14:14:13)
unnamednewbie13 wrote:
"Having little place to criticize" only means what it means. I have little place to criticize a ton of the things that I've spoken against, so go ahead and keep your opinions on that. I'm not trying to stop you.
If you read it again, it's more one idea than two. "Until A is met, B is silly." Also,
One place you're saying "has no place", in the other "has little place".unnamednewbie13 wrote:
Until the US wants to do more to intervene in the internal disaster Mexico's going through, it really has no place to criticize laws like that.
And it's still two separate ideas conflated into one.
We are perfectly justified in our criticisms, while at the same time we are also justified in not wanting to take it upon ourselves to fix their problems.
Calling attention to an issue is one thing.
Taking responsibility to fix the issue is another.
It is not our job to unfuck their problems.
To put it another way, just because you suck in bed, doesn't mean it's my job to screw your wife.
Yeah.Macbeth wrote:
Any experts on Mexican law or culture here?
Place is fucked up.
Don't get involved, unless you want to take responsibility for everything that is wrong with Mexico.
Yeah. I don't really feel like continuing an argument about semantics and other irrelevant minutiae on this thread. You know what I meant. I'm not going to spell it out for you.
Not wanting to parse semantics, I can agree on that much.unnamednewbie13 wrote:
Yeah. I don't really feel like continuing an argument about semantics and other irrelevant minutiae on this thread. You know what I meant. I'm not going to spell it out for you.
I'm just not a big fan of sending in the Americans to solve other people's problems.
First Gulf War, we should've gone straight to Baghdad, deposed Saddam, eliminated his army as an effective fighting force, handed Kuwait back to the Kuwaitis, and billed the UN for our expenses.
Mexico's problems cannot be solved by an army.
Their problems are part of their culture, and cannot be solved by outside hands.
Let the people of that country fix themselves.
A foreign power trying to fix systemic problems in another nation's culture will never work.
Somehow, all the ills of that nation then fall at the feet of the 'invader.
If you're arguing that the authorities prosecute crimes against men and women differently--off of the same statute--and that somehow making a different statute will fix THAT...you're high. That speaks to a deeper, societal bias (as pointed out by Macbeth) that no amount of law will overcome.Superior Mind wrote:
Because they are especially targeted. It is more of an offense to a society to continue a bad trend, rather than to commit a less common crime that doesn't feed such a bloated endemic.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Could be, but it says they are investigating the crimes as a "gender crime" suggesting there is such a category of crime.Macbeth wrote:
Any experts on Mexican law or culture here? Or are we just sitting back judging their system and laws by our own American standards?
It's easy to bitch about legal discrimination against men in another country when the one you live in has the two genders on equal footing. In Mexican, Hispanic, other non-American, and non-Western cultures the world over, women don't have the de facto equality they enjoy here and in Europe. That's why a law increasing the penalty for committing a crime against a women in a country where crime against women is a cultural norm is fine. Think of the law as plugging a hole in the system.
As for "why not just raise penalties across the board?" Probably for the same reasons it isn't done here in regards to our own hate crime laws. Either the political will doesn't exist or there are cultural blocks still in place.
Finally since none of us our Mexican legal experts how do we even know that there are any gender related crimes laws in Mexico that resemble our hate crime laws in the U.S.? The only hint we have of anything like that is the following lines in the article.It could be that there are no gender crime laws in Mexico and the police are just looking into whether the two naked female victims were targeted because they were women and ticked off a serial killers fetish or because they were reporters with a business.Authorities are investigating the killings of two women as gender crimes after their bound, naked bodies were found in a Mexico City park, the capital's chief prosecutor said Friday.
Mexico City law requires prosecutors to investigate such crimes involving women as gender-related, said Miguel Mancera.
But investigators will not ignore other potential motives, including possible connections to a money-exchange business owned by one of the victims or the fact that both women had been journalists.
Hell, a google search for "gender crime law mexico" just links me to page after page after page of the OP's news article. The whole OP the subsequent debate over gender crime laws could just be for all we know a debate over an AP reporter's choice of words and our willingness to jump to conclusions that conform to our narrow world view.
But we will never know because non of us are Mexican legal experts.
fuck
and if we are going to relegate our discussions to only those issues we are all experts on, it should get awful quiet in here.
- Superior Mind
- (not macbeth)
- +1,755|6932
That's the truth. But maybe the laws would help just a handful of ladies. Which is good. At the cost of a couple of dead beats in jail. What's more important to us, the lives of a few women, or the political dreams of tomorrow?FEOS wrote:
That speaks to a deeper, societal bias (as pointed out by Macbeth) that no amount of law will overcome.
Why get involved at all?rdx-fx wrote:
First Gulf War, we should've gone straight to Baghdad, deposed Saddam, eliminated his army as an effective fighting force, handed Kuwait back to the Kuwaitis, and billed the UN for our expenses.
A large part of their problem is Americans like ramming powder up their nose - and are willing to pay almost any price.Their problems are part of their culture, and cannot be solved by outside hands.
Last edited by Dilbert_X (2011-09-05 02:55:50)
Fuck Israel
Ah yes. It's all America's fault. Didn't take too long for Dilbert to take us there.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular