BF2S Forums Moody’s Sounds the Alarm on Student Borrowing

Jay wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

Shocking wrote:

What needs to be done is raising the standards for all the other degrees. That and making it so that the degree is more focused on the job market rather than academic purposes only.

This is what I've been saying.

Raise academic standards required for degrees. But everyone keeps trying to claim I'm saying the government should be enforcing all these changes. I have no interest in who implements the changes, but would like to see higher academic standards.

You would see higher academic standards if the government didn't make it so easy to attend college via loan.

Uzique wrote:

and you're right about science and math and applied subjects dying out in the west. that's because we've reached a situation where our society doesn't actually really need many of them-- they're all outsourced to indians and chinese that are far more assiduous, far more disciplined and far more eager to get into the applied sciences/maths. when a society becomes advanced and comfortable people are no longer pushed to get a degree with a concrete payoff to society. and as macbeth is saying as a devil's advocate... if you think you're special (stimey) because you're a big fish in an extremely small, shallow high-school shaped pond, then wait til you mean my buddy dennis wong and his side-kick harry manpreet, who will ace you on every test because their society is in the stage where it urges young able-minded men to geek out on science/math.

Jay wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

Shocking wrote:

What needs to be done is raising the standards for all the other degrees. That and making it so that the degree is more focused on the job market rather than academic purposes only.

This is what I've been saying.

Raise academic standards required for degrees. But everyone keeps trying to claim I'm saying the government should be enforcing all these changes. I have no interest in who implements the changes, but would like to see higher academic standards.

You would see higher academic standards if the government didn't make it so easy to attend college via loan.

Uzique wrote:

Shocking wrote:

Uzique wrote:

and you're right about science and math and applied subjects dying out in the west. that's because we've reached a situation where our society doesn't actually really need many of them-- they're all outsourced to indians and chinese that are far more assiduous, far more disciplined and far more eager to get into the applied sciences/maths. when a society becomes advanced and comfortable people are no longer pushed to get a degree with a concrete payoff to society. and as macbeth is saying as a devil's advocate... if you think you're special (stimey) because you're a big fish in an extremely small, shallow high-school shaped pond, then wait til you mean my buddy dennis wong and his side-kick harry manpreet, who will ace you on every test because their society is in the stage where it urges young able-minded men to geek out on science/math.

The vast majority of all scientific breakthroughs still happen in the west. I don't see the subjects dying out at all, in fact I believe the amount of people studying them is increasing, just that the demand is increasing more.

currently, yes. that accounts for the last 200-300 years of history. modern industrial society. india and china are catching up. the next 25-50 years is going to be very very interesting as far as the balance of power and influence goes. i think you're taking a lot of western supremacy for granted on this matter. these countries are churning out millions of engineers, math geniuses and applied scientists every single year. they have a huge demand and are gearing up extremely fast, essentially going through the same changes that we went through a century ago, only at warp-speed. the market is international and very soon will be truly global, as these rising powers (BRIC) compete on the same level and equal footing. in the space of a lifetime your "by default the best" western standing will be seriously challenged and undermined by a huge demographic surge of people who are just as intelligent, just as well qualified, and twice as willing to better themselves and work. have fun with your certainties.

Duke University adjunct professor Vivek Wadhwa recently testified before a House Committee about a study he conducted on outsourcing and competitiveness of U.S. engineering colleges. He undertook the study after getting feedback from students that they were worried about having their jobs outsourced, and that many engineering students were accepting positions outside the engineering field.

Quantity of graduates studied

The first finding was that the disparity in the numbers between U.S., Chinese, and Indian graduates is not as great as most people think. Despite the fact that the population of China and India is roughly four times that of the U.S., in 2004 they found that the U.S. graduated 137,437 engineers vs. 112,000 from India and 351,537 from China (including information technology and related majors). Additionally, Wadhwa says the Chinese numbers are suspect:

    We had to rely on information provided by the Chinese Ministry of Education and could not gain comfort with their method of collecting information or the rigor in validating data. … There were also questions about what qualifies as an engineering program in China. It appeared that any bachelor’s or short-cycle degree with “engineering” in its title was included in their numbers regardless of the degree’s field or the academic rigor associated with it. This means that the reported number of engineers produced may very well include the equivalent of motor mechanics and industrial technicians.

Quality of graduates

Although his study did not cover the question of the quality of the graduates, Wadhwa cited evidence in his testimony that "all available data indicates that the vast majority of Indian and Chinese graduates are not close to the standards of US graduates". In particular, he says, the Chinese educational focus is on quantity vs. quality. Duke researcher, Ben Rissing says that the number of technical schools in China actually fell from 4098 to 2884 in the 1999-2004 period, and the number of teachers and staff at these institutions fell 24%.

India is fairing a little better, but all is not rosy there either:

    India’s most respected educational institution is the Indian Institute of Technology (IIT). Over the years, it has graduated many successful entrepreneurs and leaders. Anecdotal evidence indicates that IIT graduates are exceptional, but so are the graduates of top U.S. schools. Biomedical Engineering Professor Barry Myers says that he has always been impressed with IIT graduates to come to study in the U.S. But these students are only as good as the average American students that he teaches at Duke.

Jay wrote:

Uzique wrote:

Shocking wrote:

The vast majority of all scientific breakthroughs still happen in the west. I don't see the subjects dying out at all, in fact I believe the amount of people studying them is increasing, just that the demand is increasing more.

currently, yes. that accounts for the last 200-300 years of history. modern industrial society. india and china are catching up. the next 25-50 years is going to be very very interesting as far as the balance of power and influence goes. i think you're taking a lot of western supremacy for granted on this matter. these countries are churning out millions of engineers, math geniuses and applied scientists every single year. they have a huge demand and are gearing up extremely fast, essentially going through the same changes that we went through a century ago, only at warp-speed. the market is international and very soon will be truly global, as these rising powers (BRIC) compete on the same level and equal footing. in the space of a lifetime your "by default the best" western standing will be seriously challenged and undermined by a huge demographic surge of people who are just as intelligent, just as well qualified, and twice as willing to better themselves and work. have fun with your certainties.

Duke University adjunct professor Vivek Wadhwa recently testified before a House Committee about a study he conducted on outsourcing and competitiveness of U.S. engineering colleges. He undertook the study after getting feedback from students that they were worried about having their jobs outsourced, and that many engineering students were accepting positions outside the engineering field.

Quantity of graduates studied

The first finding was that the disparity in the numbers between U.S., Chinese, and Indian graduates is not as great as most people think. Despite the fact that the population of China and India is roughly four times that of the U.S., in 2004 they found that the U.S. graduated 137,437 engineers vs. 112,000 from India and 351,537 from China (including information technology and related majors). Additionally, Wadhwa says the Chinese numbers are suspect:

    We had to rely on information provided by the Chinese Ministry of Education and could not gain comfort with their method of collecting information or the rigor in validating data. … There were also questions about what qualifies as an engineering program in China. It appeared that any bachelor’s or short-cycle degree with “engineering” in its title was included in their numbers regardless of the degree’s field or the academic rigor associated with it. This means that the reported number of engineers produced may very well include the equivalent of motor mechanics and industrial technicians.

Quality of graduates

Although his study did not cover the question of the quality of the graduates, Wadhwa cited evidence in his testimony that "all available data indicates that the vast majority of Indian and Chinese graduates are not close to the standards of US graduates". In particular, he says, the Chinese educational focus is on quantity vs. quality. Duke researcher, Ben Rissing says that the number of technical schools in China actually fell from 4098 to 2884 in the 1999-2004 period, and the number of teachers and staff at these institutions fell 24%.

India is fairing a little better, but all is not rosy there either:

    India’s most respected educational institution is the Indian Institute of Technology (IIT). Over the years, it has graduated many successful entrepreneurs and leaders. Anecdotal evidence indicates that IIT graduates are exceptional, but so are the graduates of top U.S. schools. Biomedical Engineering Professor Barry Myers says that he has always been impressed with IIT graduates to come to study in the U.S. But these students are only as good as the average American students that he teaches at Duke.

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/burnette/us-v … eering/125

Uzique wrote:

i think like 60%+ of the science/math students (especially at graduate level) here are international. and that's pretty normal.

Macbeth wrote:

Shocking wrote:

Personally I hope the BRICs will make us get back at the top of our game again.

China is the only BRIC worth anything. Even so I'm doubtful they will unseat the west anytime soon.

I'm talking about in importance.

Uzique wrote:

doctors and lawyers are different, though, because they are vocational/professional degrees that are basically direct-links into a lifetime profession. they are pretty exceptional as far as normal degree-awarding academia is concerned - almost like a separate subset of qualifications that operate completely independent of normal education. regardless of funding arrangements or standards or government interventionism, the medical, veterinary and legal professions will always do fine in picking up as new people as they need. engineering, maths and sciences are a little more vulnerable to outside market/education forces, because they are nowhere near as historically stable and safe. that is all im questioning... as long as you certainly aren't "gloating" about your degrees paybacks, and realize that many people have to make a smart decision re: payback on science/math degrees, too. there are a lot of degree-awarding institutions that are not worth any amount of loan money, tbh, whether or not you take math.

Uzique wrote:

engineers don't enjoy such a high status over here. they're on par with architects, who have their own organisations and standards, but certainly aren't considered on scale in terms of prestige and historical reliability as law/medi/vet. it's a 'professional career' based education, sure, but then again so is an MBA, and fucking utter morons get MBA's.