Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6841|132 and Bush

https://i.imgur.com/fWO2J.jpgVia: Discovery Space
Imagine surfing to your favorite science news website tomorrow to see headlines announcing the detection of a radio signal coming at us from an extraterrestrial civilization.

Impossible? Not really.

Yes, it’s true that over the past 50 years approximately 100 SETI (Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence) programs have come up empty handed. But veteran SETI scientist Jill Tarter has pointed out that in terms of the volume of the Milky Way, we have only surveyed the equivalent volume of a Starbucks cup of coffee as compared to the volume of Earth’s oceans. The galaxy in a big place. Or, as 19th century Scottish essayist Thomas Carlyle put it, potentially a "sad spectacle, . . . for misery and folly."

Assuming there are other technological civilizations in our galaxy, and that some subset of them attempt interstellar communication via radio beacons, then detecting a signal is only a matter of when, not if.

For example, the planned Square Kilometer Array radio telescope being built by an international consortium could detect a powerful pulsed beacon anywhere in the galaxy. But such beacons might simply be overlooked as anomalous pulsating neutron stars.

But an unequivocally artificial transmission should eventually pop up. Once the shock and awe of at last realizing we're not alone in the universe has settled in, there will be a spirited debate over whether we should send a response to the aliens.

https://i.imgur.com/DLLLf.jpg
But who speaks for Earth?

John Billingham of the SETI Institute, and James Benford of Microwave Sciences in Lafayette, Calif., say that in anticipation of such a “Day the Earth Stood Still” moment, we need to establish an international symposium now to reach a consensus on how and if we should respond to E.T.

They would like to see a moratorium on any METI (Message to Extraterrestrial Intelligence) broadcasts until such discussions take place.

What’s been transmitted to the stars so far is pretty innocuous: musical melodies performed on the Theremin, binary bilingual Russian and English greetings, Facebook message style text files, and modern day hieroglyphics.

At first glance I think the worry about talking to aliens is melodramatic considering that their signal would probably come from hundreds or even thousands of light-years away. Like it or not, the sheer size of the galaxy imposes heavy duty roaming charges that make it implausible that extraterrestrials will ever engage in a two-way conversation with us. That is, unless the science fiction dream of faster-than-light “subspace” chatter is realized. The paradox is that you would receive an answer from E.T. before you transmitted a question.

Equally melodramatic is the authors’ concern that a broadcast from Earth might endanger our species. Astrophysicist Stephen Hawking made world headlines last year when he warned that contact with extraterrestrials would be dangerous.

Hawking cited anthropological examples where an advanced culture crushes an inferior culture. But this is horribly simplistic when applied to alien minds evolved under alien suns.

Hawking doesn’t know any more about the mindset and mores of extraterrestrial civilizations that anyone else on Earth does. It’s naïve to think that they would be bellicose or altruistic.

My best guess is that they are at least curious -- or else they wouldn't blow their science budget on building a transmitter. But curious in an aloof sort of way. This is as H.G. Wells described the Martians in his 1898 classic “The War of the Worlds,” as possessing minds that are “vast, cool, and unsympathetic.”

Finally, I would argue that any number of curious civilization already know we are here by observing Earth passing in front of the sun, just as NASA’s Kepler space observatory is now doing in search of Earth clones across the galaxy.

Alien astronomers who are not much more technologically advanced than us may have already spectroscopically sniffed Earth’s atmosphere and found that it screams of a planet covered with life -- especially methane polluting cows.

More advanced alien observations might measure the glow of our city lights on the nighttime side of our planet. And, monstrous radio antenna arrays the size of the city of Chicago might have already picked up the faint whisper of TV, radio and radar signals leaking off of our planet.

Bear in mind that this latter experiment can only work to a range of several dozen light years -- the length of time our civilization has had telecommunications. And, the leak off signals get so weak and jumbled they are quickly lost in galactic radio noise. It would be like trying to hear the sound of a penny dropped inside a bustling airport terminal.

Finally, if E.T. has the same worries that Billingham, Benford, and Hawking have, then maybe nobody’s transmitting and everyone’s only listening.

That said, one text message now headed for the stars reads:
“You are cordially invited to an interplanetary barbeque 6:00 p.m. 4, October 2452 at my place. BYO beer and meat. RSVP.”
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unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|7012|PNW

At which point we'd have no political choice but to accept. However, they'd need to send a space taxi for our dignitaries. But if aliens that advanced are sitting around the galaxy and are halfway responsible entities, they'd do their best to avoid contact with us until it's pretty much given that we're able to leave the system.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6841|132 and Bush

Why no choice? What if they too are blindly sending out radio signals?
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unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|7012|PNW

If they're sending something back, chances are they'd be able to roughly estimate how far away we are by the deteriorated radio signal and not bother sending an RSVP unless we could receive the invitation (and be able to travel) in time. I suppose it does bring up the thought that by the time they'd pick it up and send something back that either they, we or both species would be advanced enough to transport ourselves to said beer/BBQ party.
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6393|what

No.

Imagine something like when Cortes met the Aztecs except the technology would be even more futher advanced.

I don't want to be given any pox ridden blankets.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6841|132 and Bush

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

If they're sending something back, chances are they'd be able to roughly estimate how far away we are by the deteriorated radio signal and not bother sending an RSVP unless we could receive the invitation (and be able to travel) in time. I suppose it does bring up the thought that by the time they'd pick it up and send something back that either they, we or both species would be advanced enough to transport ourselves to said beer/BBQ party.
Well..
That is, unless the science fiction dream of faster-than-light “subspace” chatter is realized. The paradox is that you would receive an answer from E.T. before you transmitted a question.
But yea. It's much more likely that we would be the first to receive a signal. This is because we have only been broadcasting for a very very short amount of time. However, an alien civilization may have evolved much sooner than us. Other civilizations could have developed hundreds of millions of years ago ..or more. This means that even at great the galactic distances we must deal with there may be radio signals out there to be found.
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Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6841|132 and Bush

AussieReaper wrote:

No.

Imagine something like when Cortes met the Aztecs except the technology would be even more futher advanced.

I don't want to be given any pox ridden blankets.
One would think that an advanced civilization must have moved past the exploitative nature of 16th century conquistadors. Still quite a gamble though.
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AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6393|what

Kmar wrote:

AussieReaper wrote:

No.

Imagine something like when Cortes met the Aztecs except the technology would be even more futher advanced.

I don't want to be given any pox ridden blankets.
One would think that an advanced civilization must have moved past the exploitative nature of 16th century conquistadors. Still quite a gamble though.
Plenty of nice resources here on Earth, small though we are. You don't give a second thought to destroying an ants nest that near your picnic.

Ever see that South Park episode with the space cash?
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6841|132 and Bush

True.. that is one of the arguments Hawking made. But are we to assume Earth is extremely unique? Earth's "resources" are replicated every time a star explodes. I believe it's only because we are so young, in relation to the universe, that we have trouble finding the stuff we know as necessary for life.
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AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6393|what

Kmar wrote:

True.. that is one of the arguments Hawking made. But are we to assume Earth is extremely unique? Earth's "resources" are replicated every time a star explodes. I believe it's only because we are so young, in relation to the universe, that we have trouble finding the stuff we know as necessary for life.
"Liquid" water is harder to find.

But water teeming with life holds plenty of potential for bioengineering. Tank algae to produce oil for example. We've no idea what another race looking at Earth would want.

If we discovered an alien species on one of Jupiters moons, caveman primitive, we would study them without any interaction. Certainly would kidnap a few for study. But dropping down to say hello would achieve nothing for us. Same could be said for a species more advanced then ours.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6841|132 and Bush

AussieReaper wrote:

Kmar wrote:

True.. that is one of the arguments Hawking made. But are we to assume Earth is extremely unique? Earth's "resources" are replicated every time a star explodes. I believe it's only because we are so young, in relation to the universe, that we have trouble finding the stuff we know as necessary for life.
"Liquid" water is harder to find.

But water teeming with life holds plenty of potential for bioengineering. Tank algae to produce oil for example. We've no idea what another race looking at Earth would want.

If we discovered an alien species on one of Jupiters moons, caveman primitive, we would study them without any interaction. Certainly would kidnap a few for study. But dropping down to say hello would achieve nothing for us. Same could be said for a species more advanced then ours.
Early man in the desert probably thought rain was very rare. However, the Amazonian living in a rainforest fights the rain all the time. The fact that we have yet to stretch our galactic legs doesn't make something rare. What may be hard for us to find may be very common to aliens. We haven't even explored our own neighborhood in depth yet. "Liquid' water was necessary for the common ancestor of all earthbound creatures. That's what we know, and that is why we consider it vitally important. That isn't to say that life across the universe is dependent on it. If you factor in even the smallest change of evolutionary variables things drastically change.

We've no idea what another race looking at Earth would want.
Now this is what I think it comes down to. We have a basic fear of the unknown. For our survival this cautious characteristic has been beneficial. And looking over our history and chosen path that fear is seemingly justified. 

If the natural law of the universe is for all creatures to consume as much energy as possible then it's reasonable to think that all alien races are a threat. But again, we're counting on Earths uniqueness for this to be a genuine threat. Everything that we value on earth should be available in exceedingly greater quantities throughout the galaxy.
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get that 5 gig torrent /physics books
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6841|132 and Bush

I've read a good deal on the subject. It's interesting to interact with people and get their opinions on the fly also.
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Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7050|Nårvei

There will always be war over religion and resources ... if it's locally here on earth or between earth and another planet doesn't matter ...

With that said I fear the day we make contact, not because I fear the "visitors" that much, I fear the reaction we would give them depending on where and how they make contact ...

I don't believe a friendly encounter would just show up without taking some sort of contact first through radio or similar ...

The day we wake up without water we know we are fucked
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|7012|PNW

AussieReaper wrote:

No.

Imagine something like when Cortes met the Aztecs except the technology would be even more futher advanced.

I don't want to be given any pox ridden blankets.
If a race more advanced than us decides to pull us into galactic society, what choice do we have? Throw primitive temper tantrums and embarrass our species even more than we've already done? Invite intervention?

Varegg wrote:

There will always be war over religion and resources ... if it's locally here on earth or between earth and another planet doesn't matter ...
Religion, perhaps. Resources? Perhaps not. Matter mining technology would probably be so advanced by the time a species goes interstellar that a war over a planet would be like invading Mexico for a handful of pebbles.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6841|132 and Bush

Varegg wrote:

There will always be war over religion and resources ... if it's locally here on earth or between earth and another planet doesn't matter ...
I believe the conflicts we endure over global resources is a consequence of us having to deal with a our limited supply, locally. We are stuck on this rock, left to ration those resources out to our ever growing population. Since we've established that a signal would almost certainly have to come from a civilization considerably more advanced than ours, it's not out the question to believe that they have mastered "tapping in" to the Universe's seemingly infinite amount of resources. Remember where the table of periodic elements comes from?

We will "wake up" one day without water. The question is will we have developed the capability to extract water from foreign worlds or even create water before then... Yes I said create .
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Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6841|132 and Bush

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

If a race more advanced than us decides to pull us into galactic society, what choice do we have? Throw primitive temper tantrums and embarrass our species even more than we've already done? Invite intervention?
Grab those ankles. Those fucking birds aren't going to save us again ..lol
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Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6346|eXtreme to the maX
Aliens will either gas the whole planet or send killer-bots to wipe out just the humans.

You can kid yourself otherwise.
Fuck Israel
Cheeky_Ninja06
Member
+52|6972|Cambridge, England

Kmar wrote:

Varegg wrote:

There will always be war over religion and resources ... if it's locally here on earth or between earth and another planet doesn't matter ...
I believe the conflicts we endure over global resources is a consequence of us having to deal with a our limited supply, locally. We are stuck on this rock, left to ration those resources out to our ever growing population. Since we've established that a signal would almost certainly have to come from a civilization considerably more advanced than ours, it's not out the question to believe that they have mastered "tapping in" to the Universe's seemingly infinite amount of resources. Remember where the table of periodic elements comes from?

We will "wake up" one day without water. The question is will we have developed the capability to extract water from foreign worlds or even create water before then... Yes I said create .
I dont see that they have to be more advanced than us. Sure it is certainly possible but it is not the only possibility. What about a mirror civilization to our own that has just sent out a few beacons and we manage to locate one of these. It is a completely different situation to your star trek arguments.

dilbert wrote:

Aliens will either gas the whole planet or send killer-bots to wipe out just the humans.

You can kid yourself otherwise.
Paranoid much?
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6841|132 and Bush

Cheeky_Ninja06 wrote:

Kmar wrote:

Varegg wrote:

There will always be war over religion and resources ... if it's locally here on earth or between earth and another planet doesn't matter ...
I believe the conflicts we endure over global resources is a consequence of us having to deal with a our limited supply, locally. We are stuck on this rock, left to ration those resources out to our ever growing population. Since we've established that a signal would almost certainly have to come from a civilization considerably more advanced than ours, it's not out the question to believe that they have mastered "tapping in" to the Universe's seemingly infinite amount of resources. Remember where the table of periodic elements comes from?

We will "wake up" one day without water. The question is will we have developed the capability to extract water from foreign worlds or even create water before then... Yes I said create .
I dont see that they have to be more advanced than us. Sure it is certainly possible but it is not the only possibility. What about a mirror civilization to our own that has just sent out a few beacons and we manage to locate one of these. It is a completely different situation to your star trek arguments.
If it is our technological mirror then it has to be very very close. Our radio signals have only traveled 0.1% across the Milky way.
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Cheeky_Ninja06
Member
+52|6972|Cambridge, England

Kmar wrote:

If it is our technological mirror then it has to be very very close. Our radio signals have only traveled 0.1% across the Milky way.
Noted, ill rephrase, a civilisation that were sending out beacons but could not easily leave their system.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6841|132 and Bush

For those signals to reach us they would have had to have developed radio technology long long before us.. and thus began broadcasting early enough for those signals to traverse across incredible distances to reach earth. Or like I said, they're very close (within 0.1% of the Galaxy).

btw, Voyager one hasn't even left our solar system yet (although it is getting close). It's about 16 hrs light-travel time from earth..
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unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|7012|PNW

Slightly wandering away from topic, but:

Recalculating the Distance to Interstellar Space
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6841|132 and Bush

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Slightly wandering away from topic, but:

Recalculating the Distance to Interstellar Space
I saw that. That is actually what I was recalling when I said it is getting close .
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Kampframmer
Esq.
+313|5082|Amsterdam
When i think about an alien lifeform thats capable of physically reaching us or communicating with us without the decades (or even centuries) of delay, i always think that see us the same way we see ants. Given the technological and probably biological/genetic differences we have.
Maybe not ants, but also any other more 'advanced' creature we have here, like apes.

And lets face it, when you see a colony of ants would you bother trying to communicate with them? No, of course not, because ants dont understand you due to the huge difference in intellect.
We always think that when aliens get here, that they'll walk out of their ship and will try to talk to us and teach us about the universe, but i personally think that whatever they would try to teach us, we wouldnt understand, simply because were like a bunch of dumb monkeys compared to them.

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