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2006-05-17 09:28:30
Marconius
One-eyed Wonder Mod
+368|6923|San Francisco
vjs, it really comes down to credibility.  This is the Internet, and anyone can say anything.  Even if your mother really was a direct eye witness, it's her against the others that saw it as a missile, or heard the explosion/flight and related it to something other than a plane.  For those of us that didn't see it, we just can't go around accepting everything people say until we start seeing some facts.  The video brings up questions that just were never answered.

This would all just go away if the government would be transparent enough to allow us to see what happened, and not be so clandestine.  Confiscating footage, covering pieces up and noticing a mismatch of parts in the debris is enough of a collection of odd situations to call it into question when you haven't witnessed it first hand.

Again, back yourself up, or expect to have your information taken with an extreme grain of salt.
2006-05-17 10:06:39
batman_psu
Member
+3|6980
true, but the popular mechanics article cited a very credible witness account and still no one on this topic has accepted it.  so in reality, its NOT about credibility is it?  its about what you believe in no matter what.   WHO are all these people that saw it as a missile?  where are all these witnesses?  you're basing your outlandish questions on pure hearsay b/c it intrigues you, not because you have any evidence to the fact that it was something other than a 747.

see, the impetus is on you guys who belive it wasn't a jet to PROVE that it wasn't.  its like a trial.  its already accepted that a jet flew in there.  you guys have to prove that it wasn't a jet.  and so far, no CREDIBLE witnesses have evidence that it was something.  its all pure speculation.  i remember the morning of 9/11.  the tv was rampant with misinformation and false reports.  there were supposedly car bombs at the capitol building and everything.  all of it was nonsense and hearsay. 

and you wanna talk about credibility?  maybe you shouldn't have a quote from Karl Marx, the father of Communism in your sig.  that casts you in a very negative light with regards to the system of government in this country.
2006-05-17 13:03:30
vjs
Member
+19|7000

Marconius wrote:

vjs, it really comes down to credibility.  This is the Internet, and anyone can say anything.  Even if your mother really was a direct eye witness, it's her against the others that saw it as a missile, or heard the explosion/flight and related it to something other than a plane.  For those of us that didn't see it, we just can't go around accepting everything people say until we start seeing some facts.  The video brings up questions that just were never answered.

This would all just go away if the government would be transparent enough to allow us to see what happened, and not be so clandestine.  Confiscating footage, covering pieces up and noticing a mismatch of parts in the debris is enough of a collection of odd situations to call it into question when you haven't witnessed it first hand.

Again, back yourself up, or expect to have your information taken with an extreme grain of salt.
Yeah, I was waiting for bullshit responses like this. It just wasn't expecting it to be so well written.

What do you think was covered up with those blankets etc? I guess that must have been the guidance system for the cruise missle... that makes so much more sence than the decapitated corpse was someones mon, dad, uncle, wife, child...

Burnden here is not on me, I know enough and have a personal personal link.  Second hand fact sure, but I have to reason to doubt it. When I asked her about it... the long stare at the floor with no direct eye contact while she spoke in very mono tone voice about what she saw... I learned to never as again.

Who fills you with this crap anyways? Think for yourself that's all I ask.

Sorry I just can't respond or read this anymore its too much so feel free to slash me in the upcoming post and discredit what I said. I wish it didn't happen either I'm sure 


whatever
2006-05-17 13:24:49
Marconius
One-eyed Wonder Mod
+368|6923|San Francisco
I am thinking for myself, thank you very much.  I am choosing to look at all the evidence here and am trying to form my own answers.  Seeing Loose Change, watching the events unfold on TV back in 2001, reading the PNAC report, reading through the Popular Science articles and related information, all I can say is that there is more evidence leaning towards it all being an inside job. 
As soon as hard evidence comes up that proves me wrong, such as just One Frame from any of the cameras that were confiscated that gives a better view of the Pentagon (and isn't obscured by a traffic stop or a lens flare), then we'll all know.  This administration has lost all credibility with me, especially as they are enacting the PNAC doctrine at the moment, so I will take anything from their side with a tablespoon of salt...
2006-05-17 13:46:54
skratch-x
Member
+25|6866|NY, USA
Spot on Marconius.  I thin it's incredibly important for people to raise questions.  If no one's asking about what's going on, the government can do basically anything it wants to.  Regardless of how valid this conspiracy theory is, I feel that its existence is vital to the wellbeing of our nation.  If I were standing by the Pentagon and could tell you with 100% certainty that it was a commercial flight, I would still be glad people are questioning it.  Know what I mean?
2006-05-17 14:10:16
-F8-Scotch
Member
+43|6798
You mean there are actually people who still believe that a plane did not hit the Pentagon? Wow, so did Lee Harvey Oswald have help?

Look, I don't mean to rain on your parade and untill I started looking at the evidence I could've believed that there were possibilities. If you don't want to believe the truth, plane hit pentagon on Sept. 11th, it's your beef I guess. There is an extreme difference between looking at the facts to deduce the most practical answer and looking at the facts to make up stories for what isn't present in the evidence.

When has the government ever been transparent with it's evidence? TWA 800 still has critics believing it could be a missle, or a bomb. Final report says, no. If you are waiting for "evidence" that points the direction you'd like, or believe in, you'll be waiting for a long time.

We're not only talking about a plane, and whether it hit a building or not. The wreckage, pieces from the pentagon, bodies or body parts...there's got to be some reverence here. There are lives that were lost, or was that a conspiracy too? People died, the least we can do is have the guts to swallow our pride in an attempt to give them and thier families some kind of peace.

9/11 taught us alot of things, it showed us many horrors both from external forces and internal strife. Yet for at least 1 whole day, we all acted in concert. Caring about those that lost thier lives, wondering if we are safe and hoping for a brighter tomorrow. Conspiracy theorists who attack the events around 9/11 with less than tastefull rhetoric, misdquotes and pseudo truths, tarnish the reputation of those that lost thier lives because of some angry, evil men. So bring me facts, truth, honest evidence to prove that either the twin towers or pentagon had anything to do with anyone else besides Al-Qaeda and I'll support it. Unfortnately it's not going to happen no matter how much evidence is brought forth. I'm not talking about 40 year old documents or pictures with nothing in them, or why didn't so and so see such and such. Concrete, complete and undeniable. Untill then I'll stick with the video of a giant firey explosion engulfing the pentagon, wreckage of debris side by side with boeing comparisons, witness accounts that aren't chopped and I'll think of those who died that day.

Scotch
2006-05-17 15:21:56
UON
Junglist Massive
+223|6882
To me, knowing whether or not it was a jet is a side issue, and one which may never be resolved.  I think alot of time has been devoted to it because if it wasn't it would be fairly conclusive proof of an inside job, but even if it was it wouldn't disprove some kind of government involvement/complicity/prior knowledge.  It is one unknown factor in a series of inconsistancies, omissions, smoke and mirrors.  Bring me facts, truths, honest evidence to prove that either the twin towers or Pentagon was the work of Osama Bin Laden and I'll support it.  For me demanding anything less would be a disservice to those that lost their lives and the families they left behind.
2006-05-17 15:39:44
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6880|USA

skratch-x wrote:

Spot on Marconius.  I thin it's incredibly important for people to raise questions.  If no one's asking about what's going on, the government can do basically anything it wants to.  Regardless of how valid this conspiracy theory is, I feel that its existence is vital to the wellbeing of our nation.  If I were standing by the Pentagon and could tell you with 100% certainty that it was a commercial flight, I would still be glad people are questioning it.  Know what I mean?
nope
2006-05-17 15:46:34
Marconius
One-eyed Wonder Mod
+368|6923|San Francisco
And I think of all of those that died that day and how it was allowed to happen by the Bush administration to advance their agenda.  Until someone can post anything that refutes the PNAC report, I will remain bitterly angry at the lies, deception and inaction of this administration that resulted in the deaths of 2,996 Americans.  These deaths being fuel for the administration to propel everyone into a wartime state.  This information is all over this forum, so I'll stop threadjacking here.

I want more proof.  I need an uncensored 9/11 Commission report.
2006-05-17 15:49:36
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6880|USA

UnOriginalNuttah wrote:

To me, knowing whether or not it was a jet is a side issue, and one which may never be resolved.  I think alot of time has been devoted to it because if it wasn't it would be fairly conclusive proof of an inside job, but even if it was it wouldn't disprove some kind of government involvement/complicity/prior knowledge.  It is one unknown factor in a series of inconsistancies, omissions, smoke and mirrors.  Bring me facts, truths, honest evidence to prove that either the twin towers or Pentagon was the work of Osama Bin Laden and I'll support it.  For me demanding anything less would be a disservice to those that lost their lives and the families they left behind.
Although, I am quite certain Al Queda admitted planning and carrying out the attacks...Jusy what support would you be prepared to offer??......Ya know.....to prevent "disservice to those that lost their lives and the families they left behind"??
2006-05-17 16:01:50
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6880|USA

Marconius wrote:

And I think of all of those that died that day and how it was allowed to happen by the Bush administration to advance their agenda.  Until someone can post anything that refutes the PNAC report, I will remain bitterly angry at the lies, deception and inaction of this administration that resulted in the deaths of 2,996 Americans.  These deaths being fuel for the administration to propel everyone into a wartime state.  This information is all over this forum, so I'll stop threadjacking here.

I want more proof.  I need an uncensored 9/11 Commission report.
I absolutely die laughing everytime I read how you and unorginalnuttah only seek the truth......You seek no such thing. All you seek are bigger and better ways to discredit this president. You are not objective on anything. You accept nothing as truth or fact unless it is slamming this administration. then you jump on the Bush bashing band wagon just like this BS of a conspirecy theory of flt 77. I ask you what happened to the flt then if it didn't crash and you ignore it, and only respond by calling me immature. LOL.....You yourself stated that you are going to trust information provided by Al Jeezera. ( if ya want I will find the thread). This proves that you are not interested in truth at all. Now, continue with your ignoring me......and unoriginalnuttah, don't forget to - karma me, I think it has been 24 hours now. LOL
2006-05-17 16:04:47
Major_Spittle
Banned
+276|6884|United States of America

lowing wrote:

UnOriginalNuttah wrote:

To me, knowing whether or not it was a jet is a side issue, and one which may never be resolved.  I think alot of time has been devoted to it because if it wasn't it would be fairly conclusive proof of an inside job, but even if it was it wouldn't disprove some kind of government involvement/complicity/prior knowledge.  It is one unknown factor in a series of inconsistancies, omissions, smoke and mirrors.  Bring me facts, truths, honest evidence to prove that either the twin towers or Pentagon was the work of Osama Bin Laden and I'll support it.  For me demanding anything less would be a disservice to those that lost their lives and the families they left behind.
Although, I am quite certain Al Queda admitted planning and carrying out the attacks...Jusy what support would you be prepared to offer??......Ya know.....to prevent "disservice to those that lost their lives and the families they left behind"??
So are you saying that Al Queda contracted the US government to blow up the pentagon and say it was a plane when in fact it wasn't.  Yeah, I will only beleive it when Micheal Moore does a movie on it and tells me what to think.

Perhaps someone should recreate the plane hitting the building senerio on BF2 and record one video at say 80fps and another at 2 fps and show us the results.  Make sure the person standing looking at the building to record the video notes weather he heard the plane or not and what kind of damage it made to the building.  Were their any debris and was the grass still green?
2006-05-17 16:09:12
batman_psu
Member
+3|6980
what is the PNAC report? 

and IF this administration let it happen, what was their point?  To have a war?  For what reasons?  and if the reason that everyone always says it is, then WHY AM I PAYING $3.00 PER GALLON FOR GAS!?!?!?   

UnOriginalNuttah wrote:

Bring me facts, truths, honest evidence to prove that either the twin towers or Pentagon was the work of Osama Bin Laden and I'll support it.  For me demanding anything less would be a disservice to those that lost their lives and the families they left behind.
read the 9/11 Commission Report.  Look at the evidence presented in the Mossaoui case when it comes out.  If you want to ask questions about the events, why not ask these:

-why kill 3000 people?
-why allow others to kill 3000 people?
-who benefitted?
-how did they benefit?
-what are those benefits?

there's gotta be a reason for allowing this to happen.  you tell me what it is.
2006-05-17 16:09:14
HisInfernalDeath
Member
+23|6953|Belgium

lowing wrote:

Marconius wrote:

And I think of all of those that died that day and how it was allowed to happen by the Bush administration to advance their agenda.  Until someone can post anything that refutes the PNAC report, I will remain bitterly angry at the lies, deception and inaction of this administration that resulted in the deaths of 2,996 Americans.  These deaths being fuel for the administration to propel everyone into a wartime state.  This information is all over this forum, so I'll stop threadjacking here.

I want more proof.  I need an uncensored 9/11 Commission report.
I absolutely die laughing everytime I read how you and unorginalnuttah only seek the truth......You seek no such thing. All you seek are bigger and better ways to discredit this president. You are not objective on anything. You accept nothing as truth or fact unless it is slamming this administration. then you jump on the Bush bashing band wagon just like this BS of a conspirecy theory of flt 77. I ask you what happened to the flt then if it didn't crash and you ignore it, and only respond by calling me immature. LOL.....You yourself stated that you are going to trust information provided by Al Jeezera. ( if ya want I will find the thread). This proves that you are not interested in truth at all. Now, continue with your ignoring me......and unoriginalnuttah, don't forget to - karma me, I think it has been 24 hours now. LOL
Marconius is right. Nough said m8. Open your eyes a bit, and you'll see better.
2006-05-17 16:10:32
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6880|USA

HisInfernalDeath wrote:

lowing wrote:

Marconius wrote:

And I think of all of those that died that day and how it was allowed to happen by the Bush administration to advance their agenda.  Until someone can post anything that refutes the PNAC report, I will remain bitterly angry at the lies, deception and inaction of this administration that resulted in the deaths of 2,996 Americans.  These deaths being fuel for the administration to propel everyone into a wartime state.  This information is all over this forum, so I'll stop threadjacking here.

I want more proof.  I need an uncensored 9/11 Commission report.
I absolutely die laughing everytime I read how you and unorginalnuttah only seek the truth......You seek no such thing. All you seek are bigger and better ways to discredit this president. You are not objective on anything. You accept nothing as truth or fact unless it is slamming this administration. then you jump on the Bush bashing band wagon just like this BS of a conspirecy theory of flt 77. I ask you what happened to the flt then if it didn't crash and you ignore it, and only respond by calling me immature. LOL.....You yourself stated that you are going to trust information provided by Al Jeezera. ( if ya want I will find the thread). This proves that you are not interested in truth at all. Now, continue with your ignoring me......and unoriginalnuttah, don't forget to - karma me, I think it has been 24 hours now. LOL
Marconius is right. Nough said m8. Open your eyes a bit, and you'll see better.
Marconius is right about what??....Only trusting Al Jeezera for information??

My eyes are open wide enough to see the agenda of people like marconius and unorginalnuttah.

Cancer could be cured under the Bush administration and these 2 would post conspiracy theories about how he knew of the cure years before, but kept it from the American citizens to boost insurance profits.

Last edited by lowing (2006-05-17 16:59:55)

2006-05-17 16:23:50
Marconius
One-eyed Wonder Mod
+368|6923|San Francisco
I answered your question, lowing.  You must have missed it.
2006-05-17 16:27:33
HisInfernalDeath
Member
+23|6953|Belgium

batman_psu wrote:

what is the PNAC report? 

and IF this administration let it happen, what was their point?  To have a war?  For what reasons?  and if the reason that everyone always says it is, then WHY AM I PAYING $3.00 PER GALLON FOR GAS!?!?!?   

UnOriginalNuttah wrote:

Bring me facts, truths, honest evidence to prove that either the twin towers or Pentagon was the work of Osama Bin Laden and I'll support it.  For me demanding anything less would be a disservice to those that lost their lives and the families they left behind.
read the 9/11 Commission Report.  Look at the evidence presented in the Mossaoui case when it comes out.  If you want to ask questions about the events, why not ask these:

-why kill 3000 people?
-why allow others to kill 3000 people?
-who benefitted?
-how did they benefit?
-what are those benefits?

there's gotta be a reason for allowing this to happen.  you tell me what it is.
Do you want it printed on a piece of paper...?
Can u try a bit harder, and think man. Just think about everything that goes on in this world. What does a life mean to your government ? Do you really think your government gives a damn how many did die that day ? Its just a footnote in their own agenda.
Why the secrecy ? Why all that. If they got nothing to hide, the commision report would not have been that vague.

Oh and i want to meet a pilot who can fly this kind of boeing at this low altitude, straight trough traffic signs, buildings, etc in their way, and let it crash in that kind of angle, while they were coming out of that specific direction. Just watch the flight reports. Not one single human being could have done this. Not even Tom Cruise in Top Gun.
And what about your nations securety system, radars.. Not one single radar picked up this huge plane. Did they not see that a little aircraft was changing flight scheme ?
Man, there are lots and lots of examples to give.
But i think we will never ever know the truth of what really happened that day.

My thoughts goes out to all who died that day, may they rest in peace, no matter what we are all discussing here.
Peace
2006-05-17 16:31:15
Marconius
One-eyed Wonder Mod
+368|6923|San Francisco
Once again, for the umpteenth time:
THE PNAC REPORT

It's a long read, but don't even think of discrediting it because of its length.  Their entire agenda is all there in black and white.  Pay attention to the top of page 51.
2006-05-17 16:32:08
HaywoodJablowme
Baltimore Blowfish
+46|6809
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2006/03/2 … 0#comments

Read some of the posts on that thread, some of those guys have some decent theories..

Oh yeah, and for the guys who don't think our government could do something like this, look up "Operation Nortwoods".  They even laid a plan out, with a remote controlled passenger plane to be blown up in Cuban airspace to incite an invasion against Fidel.

Last edited by HaywoodJablowme (2006-05-17 16:35:15)

2006-05-17 16:37:00
HisInfernalDeath
Member
+23|6953|Belgium

HaywoodJablowme wrote:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2006/03/23/charlie-sheen-911-feel_n_17746.html?p=20#comments

Read some of the posts on that thread, some of those guys have some decent theories..

Oh yeah, and for the guys who don't think our government could do something like this, look up "Operation Nortwoods".  They even laid a plan out, with a remote controlled passenger plane to be blown up in Cuban airspace to incite an invasion against Fidel.
WORD !!
2006-05-17 16:50:49
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6880|USA

Marconius wrote:

I answered your question, lowing.  You must have missed it.
Calling me names is hardly an answer to my question. lol......or are you referring to the theory that the govt. gassed all the passengers and whisked them away??
2006-05-17 16:55:43
vjs
Member
+19|7000
Sorry I said I wasn't going to post but I got this negative Karma from someone... here. I guess if you can't win an arguement may as well smear someones rep, classic last ditch effort, must be a liberal democrat.

Here was his reason...

"Study some facts of the mind concerning people who were certain they saw something, but wasnt even there. Then come back later. "

Well I suggest you should refresh yourself as well, substitute mind with brain and you actually now have a vaild point now. So I'll discuss it.

He is talking about false memories? Yup, I know all about it my roommate is doing his PhD on nerological activity and memory functions.

Your talking about effects of associate memory, where people hear and think they see something but they never really saw it. Then after talking about it enough they actually believe it to be true. Like the only american idiot CNN could find when the concord crashed... He said "it looked like the propellers were not turning correctly"...

So let me refresh you on how this actually happens checmically in the brain.

What happens is people don't see everything yet they think they see something and can't explain what it was or is. The brain has problems with this b/c it needs to complete a though process. So it tries to associate the event object person with what they know could/would have been. In doing so they stimulate portions of the brain "memory" that it might be in order to act rationally.

Since those portions of memory associate with each other the brain runs through them. A false memory is then easily developed, the more its repeated in the short term the more the memory solidifies as long term memory. Now its a long term memory that was totally baseless but very real to the person since they put it together from previous memories.

Well is it a false memory sure possible. But she was close enough to see the plane and certainly she would have been looking for planes in the sky. Had it not been a plane she would have noticed since it would have been more tramatic.

Last edited by vjs (2006-05-17 16:59:22)

2006-05-17 16:55:53
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6880|USA

Major_Spittle wrote:

lowing wrote:

UnOriginalNuttah wrote:

To me, knowing whether or not it was a jet is a side issue, and one which may never be resolved.  I think alot of time has been devoted to it because if it wasn't it would be fairly conclusive proof of an inside job, but even if it was it wouldn't disprove some kind of government involvement/complicity/prior knowledge.  It is one unknown factor in a series of inconsistancies, omissions, smoke and mirrors.  Bring me facts, truths, honest evidence to prove that either the twin towers or Pentagon was the work of Osama Bin Laden and I'll support it.  For me demanding anything less would be a disservice to those that lost their lives and the families they left behind.
Although, I am quite certain Al Queda admitted planning and carrying out the attacks...Jusy what support would you be prepared to offer??......Ya know.....to prevent "disservice to those that lost their lives and the families they left behind"??
So are you saying that Al Queda contracted the US government to blow up the pentagon and say it was a plane when in fact it wasn't.  Yeah, I will only beleive it when Micheal Moore does a movie on it and tells me what to think.

Perhaps someone should recreate the plane hitting the building senerio on BF2 and record one video at say 80fps and another at 2 fps and show us the results.  Make sure the person standing looking at the building to record the video notes weather he heard the plane or not and what kind of damage it made to the building.  Were their any debris and was the grass still green?
LOL. to really drive them crazy we could put a shadowy figure in the grassy knoll on Wake Island..
2006-05-17 16:59:30
Marconius
One-eyed Wonder Mod
+368|6923|San Francisco

lowing wrote:

Marconius wrote:

I answered your question, lowing.  You must have missed it.
Calling me names is hardly an answer to my question. lol......or are you referring to the theory that the govt. gassed all the passengers and whisked them away??
You could also go back to where I answered it and read it for yourself:
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?pid=355678#p355678
2006-05-17 17:07:11
batman_psu
Member
+3|6980
and of course you guys failed to answer any of my questions.  all you did was tell me to open my eyes.  real persuasive fellas.  great argument. 

HisInfernalDeath wrote:

Oh and i want to meet a pilot who can fly this kind of boeing at this low altitude, straight trough traffic signs, buildings, etc in their way, and let it crash in that kind of angle, while they were coming out of that specific direction. Just watch the flight reports. Not one single human being could have done this. Not even Tom Cruise in Top Gun.
And what about your nations securety system, radars.. Not one single radar picked up this huge plane. Did they not see that a little aircraft was changing flight scheme ?
Man, there are lots and lots of examples to give.
But i think we will never ever know the truth of what really happened that day.

My thoughts goes out to all who died that day, may they rest in peace, no matter what we are all discussing here.
Peace
the FAA couldn't track the plane BECAUSE THE TRANSPONDER WAS TURNED OFF!  and are you some sort of pilot that knows the aeronautics of a Boeing 747?  do you KNOW FOR A FACT that a 747 can NOT, under any circumstances, fly low enough to hit a building such as the Pentagon?  if you do, prove it. 

i'm sure none of you guys saw United 93, b/c it would fly in the face of the theories you subscribe to.  yeah its a movie, but i'll bet they've done more research on this subject than anyone of us has.  they definitely cover the FAA's tracking of planes that day.

 

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