BF2S Forums A boom in corporate profits, a bust in jobs, wages

AussieReaper wrote:

lowing wrote:

AussieReaper wrote:

Promoting smaller businesses to increase competition shouldn't be classed as favouritism, when clearly they are the businesses that need assistance.

Local businesses hire local staff and are often family run businesses. How do you expect them to compete with a company like Amazon or MacDonalds?

So what do you do for the start up business who is trying to compete with the small business who already operates with 50 people? and why should the 50 employee small business sit back and EXPECT to lose customer base and market share, and suffer stifled growth all in an effort for the govt. to prop up another business to promote equal results as opposed to equal opportunity?

I don't think you understand what a monopoly is. A small business with 50 people is not a monopoly. But those small businesses competing with a company that operates throughout many states for example, deserves incentives to hire local, produce local and remain active in the industry, rather than be gobbled up but a large chain.

eg a local coffee shop that employes 50 people should be given a chance to compete against the starbucks on every city corner.

Do you understand why that is important?

ummm maybe you don't know what a monopoly is. It has nothing to do with the size of a company only its market share, and if you have a local community where a 50 employee small business is operating solely, say the local movie theater. You are trying to tell me that a start up movie theater should get special treatment from the govt. in order to help it steal market share and customer base from the more established business. In order to do this, the govt. MUST by default, show favoritism and implement special treatment and consideration to the start up business. I can not support that.

Lets see.

Large companies can set up cheap foreign supply chains and buy up govt with the profits.

Small companies can't.

A better plan is needed.

So your socialist leanings have expanded so far you think US employment law should apply abroad?

Health and safety doesn't really cost much, in fact often its self funding.
It wouldn't change the fundementally lower costs of manufacturing or doing other business abroad.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2011-07-23 21:50:54)

Dilbert_X wrote:

So your socialist leanings have expanded so far you think US employment law should apply abroad?

Health and safety doesn't really cost much, in fact often its self funding.
It wouldn't change the fundementally lower costs of manufacturing or doing other business abroad.

not necessarily US laws, but laws agreed to by countries involved, and any country not participating would be off the list for any, in our case, US company from setting up shop there.

Dilbert_X wrote:

lowing wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

So your socialist leanings have expanded so far you think US employment law should apply abroad?

Health and safety doesn't really cost much, in fact often its self funding.
It wouldn't change the fundementally lower costs of manufacturing or doing other business abroad.

not necessarily US laws, but laws agreed to by countries involved, and any country not participating would be off the list for any, in our case, US company from setting up shop there.

That all happened about ten years ago, China has basic OHS now.
Low cost is still the same.

Didn't know that, it is not a topic I keep track of. Then I guess we all need to stop buying shit made in China. Ready to dump your Iphone?

Last edited by lowing (2011-07-24 02:49:35)

Dilbert_X wrote:

Don't have an iPhone.

One option is increasing personal taxation for wealthy business owners - thus encouraging them to reinvest profit in the business.
Its worth a try, think about it.

You're right, taking money from someone else is always the better option.

lowing wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Don't have an iPhone.

One option is increasing personal taxation for wealthy business owners - thus encouraging them to reinvest profit in the business.
Its worth a try, think about it.

You're right, taking money from someone else is always the better option.

Encouraging them to keep their money you mean?

I see you didn't think about it.

Dilbert_X wrote:

lowing wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Don't have an iPhone.

One option is increasing personal taxation for wealthy business owners - thus encouraging them to reinvest profit in the business.
Its worth a try, think about it.

You're right, taking money from someone else is always the better option.

Encouraging them to keep their money you mean?

I see you didn't think about it.

No what when you tax someone that is not encouraging them to keep it. I do understand what you mean however, it is hardly fair to tell someone you had better reinvest YOUR money in YOUR company or you will lose rights to YOUR money, and it will then become OUR money.

DrunkFace wrote:

Companies remain reluctant to spend the $1.9 trillion in cash they've accumulated, especially in the United States. They're unconvinced that consumers are ready to spend again with the vigor they showed before the recession

The exact reason trickle down econ does not work. Doesn't matter how much money you have or doesn't get "stolen" from you. You're never going to invest in a market with no consumers. On the contrary, you create consumers, you create investment.

lowing wrote:

Would you choose to build a business in a country whee the govt. was going to rape you in taxes, over a country where the govt. will let you keep more of what you earn?

Tax rate is near on irrelevant. The country which has the market to support my business is all that matters. I'd rather keep 50% of something then 100% of nothing.

it would appear taxes are not irrelevant.
http://www.americasbestcompanies.com/bl … m-usa.aspx

Poseidon wrote:

lowing wrote:

Poseidon wrote:

Most (if not all) Apple products are created by Foxconn in China. Just because they were designed in California does not mean they were made there. If a car is designed in a room in Texas, but assembled by a factory in Detroit, that doesn't mean it was made in Texas.

I thought Apple was an American company, along with intel and microsoft. all the little shit that makes your iphone an iphone. Apple is a Chinese company? Ok I stand corrected. Cheap plastic slapped together in China makes an iphone Chinese.

Why do you have such a difficult time admitting when you're wrong? It doesn't matter if the company itself is based in America, the actual products are made in China. The parts are assembled in China, it leaves the factory and is shipped to stores from China, so yes, Apple products are made in China. Doesn't matter where the company is headquartered. Headquarters =/= factories.

Not true at all. The profits all go back to HQ.

Kmar wrote:

The question is how do we encourage them to create jobs at home?

You can't really. Give them tax breaks and you fuck the local tax base up. My hometown has for years attempted to lure in businesses with property tax exemptions under the premise that the new businesses will bring in new taxpayers in the form of employees. Has never worked as planned. Instead, the town ends up making a net loss on the land because hey, there was zero guarantee the employees would live in the town now was there?

As far as at the macro level... Nothing. There's nothing you can do short of throwing up a wall of tariffs and isolating yourself economically from the rest of the world. Every jump in the price of fuel is followed by a jump by the transportation companies in efficiency. Fuel price higher? Build a bigger ship. The manufacturing line jobs are gone and never coming back (unless our economy falls off a cliff and our quality of life goes with it). There's simply no way to compete on a global level with places that can manufacture products at a fraction of the price because of their near zero standard of living. It's just not possible.

The only way for a country like America to regain any sort of foothold in manufacturing would be to go the route of Japan and Germany: make quality products. If you walked into a store today and looked at the COO tag on three items, would you pick the item manufactured in Germany, Japan or the USA? If you say USA then you're either a fool or a liar. We make trash. Our cars suck. Our airplanes are second rate. We have no chemicals industry to speak of. Hell, we judge our economy by a single manufacturing company, Caterpillar. How sad is that? We arrived in this position largely because of the culture that grew up in factory towns. Zero ambition in life? Coast through high school and have your dad's buddy get you a cushy job with the union. When those factory towns originally were built, they were full of hungry people looking for work and wanting to make a better life for themselves and their families. Over time, the jobs were taken for granted and the quality of the products suffered with it. Take a look at places like Tennessee and North Carolina where new manufacturing plants keep popping up. They're fucking ecstatic to have the new jobs. Do you think they take the jobs for granted? Next time we have campaign season, watch the townhall meetings in the Midwest. They're full of the offspring of those hungry job seekers and all they do is whine and beg politicians to bring jobs to their town. To reopen the old factory. The last place I'd ever want to build a factory is in a town where the residents are too damn lazy to even move to where they can find work.

TLDR rant: the only way for America to ever bring manufacturing back is to up the quality of work that we produce. When the choice is between a high school dropout in Detroit making $40 an hour and an unschooled Chinese person working for $1 an hour, and the difference in their quality of work produced better be 40:1. But it's not. The differences are marginal. If Americans ever reached a stage where they actually cared about their work and didn't view it as something that gets in the way of beer and football, the manufacturers would undoubtedly be thrilled to build here. But we don't give a fuck, so neither should they.

lowing wrote:

Jay wrote:

Kmar wrote:

The question is how do we encourage them to create jobs at home?

You can't really. Give them tax breaks and you fuck the local tax base up. My hometown has for years attempted to lure in businesses with property tax exemptions under the premise that the new businesses will bring in new taxpayers in the form of employees. Has never worked as planned. Instead, the town ends up making a net loss on the land because hey, there was zero guarantee the employees would live in the town now was there?

As far as at the macro level... Nothing. There's nothing you can do short of throwing up a wall of tariffs and isolating yourself economically from the rest of the world. Every jump in the price of fuel is followed by a jump by the transportation companies in efficiency. Fuel price higher? Build a bigger ship. The manufacturing line jobs are gone and never coming back (unless our economy falls off a cliff and our quality of life goes with it). There's simply no way to compete on a global level with places that can manufacture products at a fraction of the price because of their near zero standard of living. It's just not possible.

The only way for a country like America to regain any sort of foothold in manufacturing would be to go the route of Japan and Germany: make quality products. If you walked into a store today and looked at the COO tag on three items, would you pick the item manufactured in Germany, Japan or the USA? If you say USA then you're either a fool or a liar. We make trash. Our cars suck. Our airplanes are second rate. We have no chemicals industry to speak of. Hell, we judge our economy by a single manufacturing company, Caterpillar. How sad is that? We arrived in this position largely because of the culture that grew up in factory towns. Zero ambition in life? Coast through high school and have your dad's buddy get you a cushy job with the union. When those factory towns originally were built, they were full of hungry people looking for work and wanting to make a better life for themselves and their families. Over time, the jobs were taken for granted and the quality of the products suffered with it. Take a look at places like Tennessee and North Carolina where new manufacturing plants keep popping up. They're fucking ecstatic to have the new jobs. Do you think they take the jobs for granted? Next time we have campaign season, watch the townhall meetings in the Midwest. They're full of the offspring of those hungry job seekers and all they do is whine and beg politicians to bring jobs to their town. To reopen the old factory. The last place I'd ever want to build a factory is in a town where the residents are too damn lazy to even move to where they can find work.

TLDR rant: the only way for America to ever bring manufacturing back is to up the quality of work that we produce. When the choice is between a high school dropout in Detroit making $40 an hour and an unschooled Chinese person working for $1 an hour, and the difference in their quality of work produced better be 40:1. But it's not. The differences are marginal. If Americans ever reached a stage where they actually cared about their work and didn't view it as something that gets in the way of beer and football, the manufacturers would undoubtedly be thrilled to build here. But we don't give a fuck, so neither should they.

gotta applaud you on this post.

Except for one thing......How in the world do you arrive at the conclusion that we build second rate airplanes?

Trends.

Last edited by Jay (2011-07-24 19:12:05)

Yeah I don't see how how that graph says anything about airplane quality.