A boom in corporate profits, a bust in jobs, wages

2011-07-23 05:14:09

#76

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,815|6346|eXtreme to the maX

We're intentionally "devaluing our currency"?

Reckon so.

If not why all the griping about China keeping their currency pegged to the dollar as it falls relative to everything else?

Your govt wants your currency devalued, is taking steps to do so and is griping that the Chinese are preventing it from happening.

It passes the duck test, it works for me.

Those of us that are forced to deal with reality know that a nation of consumers is not just going to decide to pay more for a product in order to influence geopolitical politics.

Bad luck then. Like bacteria in a jar.

Fuck Israel

2011-07-23 05:14:53

#77

Jaekus: I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose; +957|5419|Sydney

lowing wrote:
Jaekus wrote:
lowing wrote:

I can not think of a single legitimate consumer product that was not a cheap POS made in china or some novelty item.
I'm posting this from my iPhone 4.

On the back it reads "Designed by Apple in California. Assembled in China"
Then buy a Motorola?

Why?

2011-07-23 05:17:52

#78

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5598|London, England

AussieReaper wrote:
Jay wrote:
AussieReaper wrote:

Then don't complain that your economy can't compete globally.
Holy fuck could you be more backwards? How would I be competitive globally if I have a $3000 tariff on imports? How is that company going to sell anything on the global level at $7000 when it's competition can only sell for $3000. Essentially what you're advocating is a closed system with no global trade. Let me know how that works out for your little island nation there. Do you have large oil deposits?
You've clearly missed the point on this one. Compete globally, as in job creation at home, since the price factor is diminished consumers are going to buy the better quality rather than simply cheaper. Slapping a tariff on imports will increase the local demand, increase jobs, increase wages, better wages equals higher consumer confident and buying power.

You're not going to be the Chinese and Indians if you think the free market is the way to go, because they do not play fairly in terms of employer health and safety, wages, etc

If you intend to compete globally, the US is going to have to cut job conditions to those levels. Is that what you would prefer? China manipulates is dollar and interest rates through the government, not market forces. The compete 1 on 1, you would have to do the same. That's not going to happen.

No, I didn't miss the point on anything. You're clueless when it comes to economics.

If I slap a tariff on Chinese cars, they'll slap an export tariff on steel and tires which in turn raises the price of the domestically created cars. Or they slap an export tariff on rare earth minerals and the electronics industry takes a hit. You can't protect industries without global ramifications. Each country is not it's own island independent of everyone else, we're all linked and interdependent.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2011-07-23 05:19:52

#79

Kmar: Truth is my Bitch; +5,695|6841|132 and Bush

Dilbert_X wrote:
We're intentionally "devaluing our currency"?
Reckon so.

If not why all the griping about China keeping their currency pegged to the dollar as it falls relative to everything else?

Your govt wants your currency devalued, is taking steps to do so and is griping that the Chinese are preventing it from happening.

It passes the duck test, it works for me.
Those of us that are forced to deal with reality know that a nation of consumers is not just going to decide to pay more for a product in order to influence geopolitical politics.
Bad luck then. Like bacteria in a jar.

The sagging dollar is a negative mark against any politician. Common sense dictates that. It causes gas to go up, which in turn cause virtually every product that is shipped to go up. That means less purchasing power. The motivation for printing money was to stimulate job growth. Intent matters here.

Xbone Stormsurgezz

2011-07-23 05:20:15

#80

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,815|6346|eXtreme to the maX

Germany seems to have it figured out, a high standard of living and great balance of trade.

What are they doing right?

Fuck Israel

2011-07-23 05:22:50

#81

Kmar: Truth is my Bitch; +5,695|6841|132 and Bush

Dilbert_X wrote:
Germany seems to have it figured out, a high standard of living and great balance of trade.

What are they doing right?

Germany and Japan are joining the U.S. in pressuring Beijing to let the yuan appreciate to prevent an international currency war from spiraling out of control. Still, China remains firm that a gradual rate change is all it will allow.

German Economy Minister Rainer Bruederle warned yesterday (Wednesday) that a trade war could erupt if China didn't float its currency for a more fair value. As the China-U.S. currency tensions have heated up, other countries are saying China's unfair trade advantage is threatening export-driven recoveries around the globe.

"We have to take care that the currency war doesn't become a trade war," Bruederle told German business paper Handelsblatt. "China bears a lot of responsibility for ensuring that it doesn't come to an escalation."

http://www.nuwireinvestor.com/articles/ … 56250.aspx

Xbone Stormsurgezz

2011-07-23 05:23:38

#82

AussieReaper: ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°); +5,761|6393|what

Jay wrote:
AussieReaper wrote:
Jay wrote:

Holy fuck could you be more backwards? How would I be competitive globally if I have a $3000 tariff on imports? How is that company going to sell anything on the global level at $7000 when it's competition can only sell for $3000. Essentially what you're advocating is a closed system with no global trade. Let me know how that works out for your little island nation there. Do you have large oil deposits?
You've clearly missed the point on this one. Compete globally, as in job creation at home, since the price factor is diminished consumers are going to buy the better quality rather than simply cheaper. Slapping a tariff on imports will increase the local demand, increase jobs, increase wages, better wages equals higher consumer confident and buying power.

You're not going to be the Chinese and Indians if you think the free market is the way to go, because they do not play fairly in terms of employer health and safety, wages, etc

If you intend to compete globally, the US is going to have to cut job conditions to those levels. Is that what you would prefer? China manipulates is dollar and interest rates through the government, not market forces. The compete 1 on 1, you would have to do the same. That's not going to happen.
No, I didn't miss the point on anything. You're clueless when it comes to economics.

If I slap a tariff on Chinese cars, they'll slap an export tariff on steel and tires which in turn raises the price of the domestically created cars. Or they slap an export tariff on rare earth minerals and the electronics industry takes a hit. You can't protect industries without global ramifications. Each country is not it's own island independent of everyone else, we're all linked and interdependent.

You understand that they are already heavily manipulating their economy? You've got to do something to balance that fact. That interdependancy is the reason that the largest single holder of U.S. government debt is China.

2011-07-23 05:24:00

#83

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5598|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:
Germany seems to have it figured out, a high standard of living and great balance of trade.

What are they doing right?

They've been exporting jobs since the Berlin Wall came down. Much of their manufacturing has been moved to former Soviet Bloc countries because the cost of labor is obscenely low. Volkswagen's are now made in the Czech Republic for example. They may have a high standard of living and balance of trade but they also have extremely high unemployment and debt.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2011-07-23 05:24:15

#84

Cybargs: Moderated; +2,285|6956

Dilbert_X wrote:
Germany seems to have it figured out, a high standard of living and great balance of trade.

What are they doing right?

make superior products lol.

https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png

2011-07-23 05:24:38

#85

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5598|London, England

AussieReaper wrote:
Jay wrote:
AussieReaper wrote:

You've clearly missed the point on this one. Compete globally, as in job creation at home, since the price factor is diminished consumers are going to buy the better quality rather than simply cheaper. Slapping a tariff on imports will increase the local demand, increase jobs, increase wages, better wages equals higher consumer confident and buying power.

You're not going to be the Chinese and Indians if you think the free market is the way to go, because they do not play fairly in terms of employer health and safety, wages, etc

If you intend to compete globally, the US is going to have to cut job conditions to those levels. Is that what you would prefer? China manipulates is dollar and interest rates through the government, not market forces. The compete 1 on 1, you would have to do the same. That's not going to happen.
No, I didn't miss the point on anything. You're clueless when it comes to economics.

If I slap a tariff on Chinese cars, they'll slap an export tariff on steel and tires which in turn raises the price of the domestically created cars. Or they slap an export tariff on rare earth minerals and the electronics industry takes a hit. You can't protect industries without global ramifications. Each country is not it's own island independent of everyone else, we're all linked and interdependent.
You understand that they are already heavily manipulating their economy? You've got to do something to balance that fact. That interdependancy is the reason that the largest single holder of U.S. government debt is China.

No, they hold our debt for very different reasons. Nice attempt at a scare tactic though.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2011-07-23 05:26:03

#86

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,815|6346|eXtreme to the maX

Kmar wrote:
Dilbert_X wrote:
We're intentionally "devaluing our currency"?
Reckon so.

If not why all the griping about China keeping their currency pegged to the dollar as it falls relative to everything else?

Your govt wants your currency devalued, is taking steps to do so and is griping that the Chinese are preventing it from happening.

It passes the duck test, it works for me.
Those of us that are forced to deal with reality know that a nation of consumers is not just going to decide to pay more for a product in order to influence geopolitical politics.
Bad luck then. Like bacteria in a jar.
The sagging dollar is a negative mark against any politician. Common sense dictates that. It causes gas to go up, which in turn cause virtually every product that is shipped to go up. That means less purchasing power. The motivation for printing money was to stimulate job growth. Intent matters here.

So people will buy fewer imports and more local produce, and products which don't get shipped so far using foreign oil, thus less money gets bled out to build apartments in China - never to return.

The US is going to take some pain some time, and higher gas prices are inevitable. If you want to collapse your whole economy so fat people can overeat and fill their 10mpg SUVs with $3/gal gas thats your choice.
Consuming less and sending less money to China and the Saudis is in your long term interests, seems like win all round, oh well.

Politicians should stop saying 'strong' and 'weak' dollar and start using 'competitve' and 'uncompetitive'.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2011-07-23 05:27:06)

Fuck Israel

2011-07-23 05:28:00

#87

AussieReaper: ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°); +5,761|6393|what

Cybargs wrote:
Dilbert_X wrote:
Germany seems to have it figured out, a high standard of living and great balance of trade.

What are they doing right?
make superior products lol.

That and after the war they had some rebuilding to do and were able to plan alittle. Much like japan.

2011-07-23 05:29:13

#88

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5598|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:
Kmar wrote:
Dilbert_X wrote:
We're intentionally "devaluing our currency"?
Reckon so.

If not why all the griping about China keeping their currency pegged to the dollar as it falls relative to everything else?

Your govt wants your currency devalued, is taking steps to do so and is griping that the Chinese are preventing it from happening.

It passes the duck test, it works for me.

Bad luck then. Like bacteria in a jar.
The sagging dollar is a negative mark against any politician. Common sense dictates that. It causes gas to go up, which in turn cause virtually every product that is shipped to go up. That means less purchasing power. The motivation for printing money was to stimulate job growth. Intent matters here.
So people will buy fewer imports and more local produce, and products which don't get shipped so far using foreign oil, thus less money gets bled out to build apartments in China - never to return.

The US is going to take some pain some time, and higher gas prices are inevitable. If you want to collapse your whole economy so fat people can overeat and fill their 10mpg SUVs with $3/gal gas thats your choice.
Consuming less and sending less money to China and the Saudis is in your long term interests, seems like win all round, oh well.

More scaremongering and misinformation from the MSNBC crowd. Yes, every American drives a 10 mpg SUV and is fat. Yes, when money gets spent it gets locked in a vault in the other countries treasury. That money doesn't get spent elsewhere and float around in the global economy, eventually ending up back where it started. Trade is trade. We buy Chinese trash, they buy our computers and financial services. Even if they don't, they buy metal from Australia and Australians buy American computers and we get the money back that way. Money isn't static.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2011-07-23 05:29:18

#89

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,815|6346|eXtreme to the maX

That was decades ago, long enough that its irrelevant now.

Fuck Israel

2011-07-23 05:29:59

#90

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5598|London, England

AussieReaper wrote:
Cybargs wrote:
Dilbert_X wrote:
Germany seems to have it figured out, a high standard of living and great balance of trade.

What are they doing right?
make superior products lol.
That and after the war they had some rebuilding to do and were able to plan alittle. Much like japan.

So now you're advocating centrally planned economies? Except neither of those countries had one. You're batting 1.000 today Reaps.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2011-07-23 05:31:17

#91

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,815|6346|eXtreme to the maX

Jay wrote:
More scaremongering and misinformation from the MSNBC crowd. Yes, every American drives a 10 mpg SUV and is fat. Yes, when money gets spent it gets locked in a vault in the other countries treasury. That money doesn't get spent elsewhere and float around in the global economy, eventually ending up back where it started. Trade is trade. We buy Chinese trash, they buy our computers and financial services. Even if they don't, they buy metal from Australia and Australians buy American computers and we get the money back that way. Money isn't static.

I don't buy this theory.

If its right why is the US fucked?

Does the US even make computers any more?
5% of a Dell going to the US and 95% going to China doesn't count.

Fuck Israel

2011-07-23 05:31:40

#92

Kmar: Truth is my Bitch; +5,695|6841|132 and Bush

Dilbert_X wrote:
Kmar wrote:
Dilbert_X wrote:
Reckon so.

If not why all the griping about China keeping their currency pegged to the dollar as it falls relative to everything else?

Your govt wants your currency devalued, is taking steps to do so and is griping that the Chinese are preventing it from happening.

It passes the duck test, it works for me.

Bad luck then. Like bacteria in a jar.
The sagging dollar is a negative mark against any politician. Common sense dictates that. It causes gas to go up, which in turn cause virtually every product that is shipped to go up. That means less purchasing power. The motivation for printing money was to stimulate job growth. Intent matters here.
So people will buy fewer imports and more local produce, and products which don't get shipped so far using foreign oil, thus less money gets bled out to build apartments in China - never to return.

The US is going to take some pain some time, and higher gas prices are inevitable. If you want to collapse your whole economy so fat people can overeat and fill their 10mpg SUVs with $3/gal gas thats your choice.
Consuming less and sending less money to China and the Saudis is in your long term interests, seems like win all round, oh well.

Politicians should stop saying 'strong' and 'weak' dollar and start using 'competitve' and 'uncompetitive'.

You do realize how volatile the economy is right now don't you? I asked for some creative replies on enticing business to stay in their COI. There has to be reasonable incentives beyond what essentially amounts to charity.

Xbone Stormsurgezz

2011-07-23 05:32:25

#93

AussieReaper: ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°); +5,761|6393|what

Jay wrote:
AussieReaper wrote:
Cybargs wrote:

make superior products lol.
That and after the war they had some rebuilding to do and were able to plan alittle. Much like japan.
So now you're advocating centrally planned economies? Except neither of those countries had one. You're batting 1.000 today Reaps.

What I'm advocating is competing against the centrally planned economies. What is your solution? A total open and free market?

2011-07-23 05:32:49

#94

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,815|6346|eXtreme to the maX

COI?

Copy Germany.

Fuck Israel

2011-07-23 05:34:16

#95

Kmar: Truth is my Bitch; +5,695|6841|132 and Bush

Germany is also leveling accusations of unfair trade against China.

Xbone Stormsurgezz

2011-07-23 05:36:17

#96

Kmar: Truth is my Bitch; +5,695|6841|132 and Bush

*COO Country of origin. Auto corrected

Xbone Stormsurgezz

2011-07-23 05:36:27

#97

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,815|6346|eXtreme to the maX

Instead of falling over themselves to move their jobs to China they're trying to keep China playing fair? Sounds like a plan.
In the meantime they have a positive balance of trade.

Fuck Israel

2011-07-23 05:36:59

#98

Cybargs: Moderated; +2,285|6956

AussieReaper wrote:
Jay wrote:
AussieReaper wrote:

That and after the war they had some rebuilding to do and were able to plan alittle. Much like japan.
So now you're advocating centrally planned economies? Except neither of those countries had one. You're batting 1.000 today Reaps.
What I'm advocating is competing against the centrally planned economies. What is your solution? A total open and free market?

China isn't centrally planned.

2011-07-23 05:42:40

#99

AussieReaper: ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°); +5,761|6393|what

Cybargs wrote:
AussieReaper wrote:
Jay wrote:
So now you're advocating centrally planned economies? Except neither of those countries had one. You're batting 1.000 today Reaps.
What I'm advocating is competing against the centrally planned economies. What is your solution? A total open and free market?
China isn't centrally planned.

It was a few decades ago.

2011-07-23 05:44:05

#100

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5598|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:
Jay wrote:
More scaremongering and misinformation from the MSNBC crowd. Yes, every American drives a 10 mpg SUV and is fat. Yes, when money gets spent it gets locked in a vault in the other countries treasury. That money doesn't get spent elsewhere and float around in the global economy, eventually ending up back where it started. Trade is trade. We buy Chinese trash, they buy our computers and financial services. Even if they don't, they buy metal from Australia and Australians buy American computers and we get the money back that way. Money isn't static.
I don't buy this theory.

If its right why is the US fucked?

Does the US even make computers any more?
5% of a Dell going to the US and 95% going to China doesn't count.

The profit all comes back here. Who cares about the pittance the workers make fabricating circuit boards? The design, marketing etc is all done here. Those are the high paying jobs, not the line jobs.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

BF2S Forums A boom in corporate profits, a bust in jobs, wages

lowing wrote:

Jaekus wrote:

lowing wrote:

AussieReaper wrote:

Jay wrote:

AussieReaper wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Jay wrote:

AussieReaper wrote:

Jay wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

AussieReaper wrote:

Jay wrote:

AussieReaper wrote:

Kmar wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Kmar wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

AussieReaper wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Jay wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Kmar wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Jay wrote:

AussieReaper wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

AussieReaper wrote:

Jay wrote:

AussieReaper wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

AussieReaper wrote:

Jay wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Jay wrote:

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