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Topic closed

2011-07-19 15:16:12
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6776

Jay wrote:

Uzique wrote:

well, logic would suggest that unless your parents are former teachers or at least degree-level in the core subjects, they're not going to be as well educated or prepared as an actual teacher. actual teachers, in state-education, are also free and plentiful. i'm guessing some stay-at-home-mom or former business woman isn't going to be as capable of doing a good job of teaching as... uh... the professional teacher. all the self-help books and home-textbooks in the world aren't going to change that fundamental disadvantage in skills.
I disagree. One on one time is vastly more important to child development than sitting in a classroom. It's why tutors exist and why private schools emphasize smaller class sizes as selling points. Classroom education is forced to move at the pace of the slowest child to the detriment of the quicker kids. School systems are ass backwards and do more harm than good.
we have tiered classes over here according to ability. slow kid? they drop down a tier. fast kid? they go to a faster tier. simple system and avoids handing over the most formative years of a person's life to an untrained amateur that has to keep punctuating grammar classes with breast-feeding and hoovering. no thanks. yeah sure kids are "property", but my parents were prudent enough to exercise some of that yankee-doodle freedom and place me in a private education system, at the mercy of the market and those ruthless professionals in suits. freedom to the point of retardation, if you ask me.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2011-07-19 15:16:35
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6776

Jay wrote:

ghettoperson wrote:

Jay wrote:


Children are property, get over it.

Your argument is over who is more fit to make decisions for the kid, society (politicians and bureaucrats) or the parent. I'm gonna go with the parents.
I like how teachers teaching suddenly becomes politicians teaching in the eyes of the 'government r bad' crowd.
Who sets the curriculum?
the school and the teachers in private education. your move bubba.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2011-07-19 15:17:18
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6955

Jay wrote:

ghettoperson wrote:

Jay wrote:


Children are property, get over it.

Your argument is over who is more fit to make decisions for the kid, society (politicians and bureaucrats) or the parent. I'm gonna go with the parents.
I like how teachers teaching suddenly becomes politicians teaching in the eyes of the 'government r bad' crowd.
Who sets the curriculum?
So you think Obama and friends are deciding whether or not long division should be taught in 5th grade math?
2011-07-19 15:17:33
Toilet Sex
one love, one pig
+1,775|6877

bubba wubba lubba
♥
2011-07-19 15:18:57
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6776
i dunno what sort of shitty school galt went to but i've never heard of a school that doesn't divide classes by ability and thus keeps them small and select. i guess that is a compelling argument though, school systems are inefficient so lets hand over someone's education to the completely inept, out of principle!
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2011-07-19 15:19:57
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5663|London, England

FatherTed wrote:

Jay wrote:

Uzique wrote:

well, logic would suggest that unless your parents are former teachers or at least degree-level in the core subjects, they're not going to be as well educated or prepared as an actual teacher. actual teachers, in state-education, are also free and plentiful. i'm guessing some stay-at-home-mom or former business woman isn't going to be as capable of doing a good job of teaching as... uh... the professional teacher. all the self-help books and home-textbooks in the world aren't going to change that fundamental disadvantage in skills.
I disagree. One on one time is vastly more important to child development than sitting in a classroom. It's why tutors exist and why private schools emphasize smaller class sizes as selling points. Classroom education is forced to move at the pace of the slowest child to the detriment of the quicker kids. School systems are ass backwards and do more harm than good.
classes can be (and are) tiered you know?

although maybe not in the US idk i've never been in your school system
We have the tiered system but it's rather pointless when you have 30+ kids in a classroom.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-07-19 15:21:33
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6776
sucks to be you at a school that is so low-budget that you have 30 kids per classroom.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2011-07-19 15:22:03
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5663|London, England

ghettoperson wrote:

Jay wrote:

ghettoperson wrote:


I like how teachers teaching suddenly becomes politicians teaching in the eyes of the 'government r bad' crowd.
Who sets the curriculum?
So you think Obama and friends are deciding whether or not long division should be taught in 5th grade math?
No, that is done at the state level.

Look, stuff like math curriculum is defined by what the lower 1/4 of kids can handle. There is no reason in the world why a moderately motivated kid can't begin Calculus at the beginning of high school instead of making an option at the end. It's absurd. The entire education system here needs to be rebuilt from the ground up.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-07-19 15:22:18
jsnipy
...
+3,277|6828|...

free cheese sandwich lunch
2011-07-19 15:23:42
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5663|London, England

Uzique wrote:

i dunno what sort of shitty school galt went to but i've never heard of a school that doesn't divide classes by ability and thus keeps them small and select. i guess that is a compelling argument though, school systems are inefficient so lets hand over someone's education to the completely inept, out of principle!
You're assuming the worst. If I ever chose to pull my kids out of school it wouldn't be so I could sit there teaching them for eight hours a day. I would hire tutors. Don't assume that every homeschooled kid has been pulled out simply because his inept parents want to brainwash him. That's not reality.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-07-19 15:24:08
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6955

Jay wrote:

ghettoperson wrote:

Jay wrote:


Who sets the curriculum?
So you think Obama and friends are deciding whether or not long division should be taught in 5th grade math?
No, that is done at the state level.

Look, stuff like math curriculum is defined by what the lower 1/4 of kids can handle. There is no reason in the world why a moderately motivated kid can't begin Calculus at the beginning of high school instead of making an option at the end. It's absurd. The entire education system here needs to be rebuilt from the ground up.
I'm fully aware it's done at a state level, however my point was that the curriculum is being set by trained teachers and people who are experienced educators. This doesn't mean that people with no background in teaching whatsoever should be allowed to teach.
2011-07-19 15:24:59
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6776
but it's reality to say that all the brightest kids in school are held back in cattle-pens of 30 students doing maths for people 4 years below them because of mass inefficiency... ? uh.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2011-07-19 15:25:47
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5663|London, England

Uzique wrote:

Jay wrote:

ghettoperson wrote:


I like how teachers teaching suddenly becomes politicians teaching in the eyes of the 'government r bad' crowd.
Who sets the curriculum?
the school and the teachers in private education. your move bubba.
No, even in private education, the curriculum is dictated at the state level. Kids are expected to achieve a certain level of proficiency in each subject which leaves them semi-prepared for college. College entrance exams dictate curricula more than anything really.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-07-19 15:27:36
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6776
private schools here get freedom to teach whatever they want, really. even european international qualifications, if they think it's more beneficial, enriching and capable of meriting places to top universities. perhaps the crux of it is that home-schooling over here is A Bad Thing because general education is in a good state, whereas in america it seems your education system universally licks a sweaty state-flavoured scrotum. yummy!
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2011-07-19 15:28:49
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5663|London, England

ghettoperson wrote:

Jay wrote:

ghettoperson wrote:


So you think Obama and friends are deciding whether or not long division should be taught in 5th grade math?
No, that is done at the state level.

Look, stuff like math curriculum is defined by what the lower 1/4 of kids can handle. There is no reason in the world why a moderately motivated kid can't begin Calculus at the beginning of high school instead of making an option at the end. It's absurd. The entire education system here needs to be rebuilt from the ground up.
I'm fully aware it's done at a state level, however my point was that the curriculum is being set by trained teachers and people who are experienced educators. This doesn't mean that people with no background in teaching whatsoever should be allowed to teach.
I don't know about your experience, but I know a lot of teachers and they chose teaching because it was the path of least resistance in college and it gave them summers off. Motivated, intelligent people do not set teaching as their primary goal.

Besides, the teaching profession is just about the most conservative group of people on the planet. They have their lesson plans and their anecdotes and will fight any change tooth and nail.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-07-19 15:29:58
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6955

I don't think that's entirely true Jay. I know plenty of friends in the US who did the IB, and that's a set curriculum, nothing to do with the state.

EDIT: With regard to your previous comment about private education, not the one right above this one.

Last edited by ghettoperson (2011-07-19 15:31:07)

2011-07-19 15:32:59
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6776
some of the best teachers i've had in my life have been extremely motivated, inspirational and insightful people. galt will you stop dumping your shitty personal experience into huge crass generalisations. teaching is the "path of least resistance"? "the most conservative group of people on the planet?" funny, because academia from my perspective seems to be one of the most liberal, progressive, challenging realms around (look at any campus in the UK in the last year or so since the suggested reforms)... and it is infamous for soul-destroying levels of commitment, dedication and slavishness to research. good teachers in lower levels of education are the same, too. you're evidently tarring everyone with your shitty brush.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2011-07-19 15:36:30
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5891

jsnipy wrote:

free cheese sandwich lunch
Winning. What kind of bread? Got mayo?
2011-07-19 15:37:21
jsnipy
...
+3,277|6828|...

Macbeth wrote:

jsnipy wrote:

free cheese sandwich lunch
Winning. What kind of bread? Got mayo?
white bree-ad, gotta payo for da mayo, next kid in line
2011-07-19 15:39:08
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5663|London, England

Uzique wrote:

some of the best teachers i've had in my life have been extremely motivated, inspirational and insightful people. galt will you stop dumping your shitty personal experience into huge crass generalisations. teaching is the "path of least resistance"? "the most conservative group of people on the planet?" funny, because academia from my perspective seems to be one of the most liberal, progressive, challenging realms around (look at any campus in the UK in the last year or so since the suggested reforms)... and it is infamous for soul-destroying levels of commitment, dedication and slavishness to research. good teachers in lower levels of education are the same, too. you're evidently tarring everyone with your shitty brush.
I never felt challenged until I got to college and an environment where class was taught to the top of the class rather than the bottom.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-07-19 15:40:41
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6776
reality check: 75% of people in college are dumbasses going through the same lessons plans and learning-by-rote that you complain of. i've read several essays and articles that say the degree system in the US is even worse for this sort of autopilot-pass material, encouraging only superficial engagement with course material. i think the feeling that you're in an extremely academically healthy environment is the preserve of perhaps less than 10 truly global universities nowadays. the vast majority of students are graduating with 2:2 or 2:1 cum laude degrees and just using college as a means to get into a workplace. if that's a high-standard of 'education' to you then perhaps you find plumbing apprenticeship colleges the high-standard, because their ethos is one and the same.

Last edited by Uzique (2011-07-19 15:41:46)

libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2011-07-19 15:42:18
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5663|London, England

Uzique wrote:

reality check: 75% of people in college are dumbasses going through the same lessons plans and learning-by-rote that you complain of. i've read several essays and articles that say the degree system in the US is even worse for this sort of autopilot-pass material, encouraging only superficial engagement with course material. i think the feeling that you're in an extremely academically healthy environment is the preserve of perhaps less than 10 truly global universities nowadays.
Lol. Ok. Maybe for liberal arts degrees that's true.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-07-19 15:43:54
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5891

Uzique is pretty spot on about the college system. Getting through college in the U.S. is 50% money-50% sheer perseverance. It's not exactly a challenge.

Last edited by Macbeth (2011-07-19 15:44:19)

2011-07-19 15:45:31
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5891

jsnipy wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

jsnipy wrote:

free cheese sandwich lunch
Winning. What kind of bread? Got mayo?
white bree-ad, gotta payo for da mayo, next kid in line
You are a trooper. I can't eat a sandwich without mustard or mayo.
2011-07-19 15:45:40
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6776
are you kidding? the amount of engagement i see from management students and 'profession' degrees is ridiculous. their education consists of learning the relevant textbook chapters for the next exam so they can get their credits and scale one more rung on the ladder towards their end-goal of middle-management obscurity. liberal arts degrees require you to have some critical engagement with a wide range of disciplines: the vocational degrees are literally just functional affairs of 'show you're competent and onto the next module you go'. plus this is nothing controversial: of course 75% of university students are still going to be pretty average. if universities literally only took in the academically gifted, their intake figures would be paltry and their incomes/endowments would be miserable. plus, a summa cum laude or 1:1 degree means nothing if you don't have 95% of the class being relatively worse.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/

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