So is the OP time like the official timer on the starvation clock? Have they eaten yet?
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
they'll be dyin within the day
\_/
Tu Stultus Es
Why, they stop drinking water too?Stimey wrote:
they'll be dyin within the day
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
hopefully
Evening Mr. GSeleven bravo wrote:
\_/
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
Im broke
Tu Stultus Es
hmmm.. Line of credit exhausted too?eleven bravo wrote:
Im broke
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
just go to jail I hear there are people dying to give away their food13rin wrote:
hmmm.. Line of credit exhausted too?eleven bravo wrote:
Im broke
id thefted13rin wrote:
hmmm.. Line of credit exhausted too?eleven bravo wrote:
Im broke
Tu Stultus Es
The thing is that punishment is supposed to reform offenders to either stop the crimes happening in the first place or to strongly discourage re offending. However it appears that jail time increases the likelihood for re offending.AussieReaper wrote:
It depends if you want to just punish criminals or reform them also.
Ultimately everybody wants to stop / decrease / minimize crime rates. Lowing reckons that throwing everybody in jail for all crimes would immediately solve the problem, I am arguing that this approach is too naive and demonstrably failing while creating an overcrowding problem.
How about a system that tries to stop people from offending in the first place?Cheeky_Ninja06 wrote:
Yes Lowing, I would love a system that stopped people re offending. That would be absolutely perfect actually.
So which countries judicial system do you want to adopt? Or do you prefer yours?
Mainly that you posted the stats that you liked and ignored the others, thats the main reason I dont agree that its been proven beyond all doubt.
Jail time is not worth 10mph however would anybody actually make that distinction? What about 1mph ? Im assuming you are all for zero tolerance. Try and source an example of banning anything being 100% effective. FFS look at drink driving, that gets you a jail sentence and you lose your license and everybody knows its retarded. Doesn't stop it though does it?
In many many many occasions jail time is not the best answer.The point is that you started off with a drug user, spent a whole load of money and timing or arresting, processing, sentencing and housing them and because of your decision to send them to jail, you have directly caused somebody to get raped. If you had done nothing society would arguably have been better off.Well if people are drug addicts, then go to jail to be rapists, fuck them anyway. Society does not need either one.
The alternative is to start off with a drug user and in the worst case still have a drug user, or in the best case to have a reformed member of society, but instead you have decided to have a rapist and then with a bit of luck transform them into a murderer as well. All paid for by the tax payer.
Its like the tax payer funding a criminal training camp. Its retarded.
I don't want to adopt any other countries judical system, we are talking about prison. What happens when you get there, not the process in which you GOT there.
I didn't ignore shit, I read the stats and addressed them and the carefully worded phrase of "positive evidence of treatment" BULLSHIT, was also addressed.
Nope it doesn't, sounds like we really need to fuck the every loving shit out of DUI's even more doesn't it? Oh wait, I know lets not punish them at all. Lets make what they did societies fault.
you want rehab, which has been shown to have a high failure rate. I want punishment for what these people did to their victims. Sorry. Maybe you would feel different if you or your kids were the victims? Problem is with rehab is, the people that go, honestly and sincerely MUST want to be helped. As it is, rehab is a way of getting out of their cell for awhile and nothing more. It turns hard time into easier time.
Funny how the vast majority of society can go through life without going to jail or victimizing anyone, yet you insist those that do is not their fault and that there MUST be a problem with society. No sir, the problem is with the individual.
No morality, conscience, consideration etc is what stops people from becoming criminals, and that is a personal decision and no one elses.
Actually it isn't the same argument, because I little kid may or may not know the difference between right and wrong. If, as an adult, you still don't know, you are already a lost cause.Jaekus wrote:
Same argument as you can either punish then teach a child what is the wrong thing and why, or beat them into submission so they never do it again, and all they learn is resentment and to treat other people the same way. I wonder which side lowing is on.AussieReaper wrote:
It depends if you want to just punish criminals or reform them also.
No, what is naive is to think you can change people that really don't want to change. Fact is you can not. People are going to act the way they will, until THEY decide to change, not when you decide to change them. I say fuck them until thy are ready to make whatever changes they need to make to become socially acceptable, and stop with this bullshit hand holding and treating criminals like THEY are the victims.Cheeky_Ninja06 wrote:
The thing is that punishment is supposed to reform offenders to either stop the crimes happening in the first place or to strongly discourage re offending. However it appears that jail time increases the likelihood for re offending.AussieReaper wrote:
It depends if you want to just punish criminals or reform them also.
Ultimately everybody wants to stop / decrease / minimize crime rates. Lowing reckons that throwing everybody in jail for all crimes would immediately solve the problem, I am arguing that this approach is too naive and demonstrably failing while creating an overcrowding problem.
So every single person who goes to jail is a life long criminal? Nobody is just an ordinary person that fucked up once? Nobody ever goes to prison for being in a really shit position and making illegal choices?lowing wrote:
No, what is naive is to think you can change people that really don't want to change. Fact is you can not. People are going to act the way they will, until THEY decide to change, not when you decide to change them. I say fuck them until thy are ready to make whatever changes they need to make to become socially acceptable, and stop with this bullshit hand holding and treating criminals like THEY are the victims.Cheeky_Ninja06 wrote:
The thing is that punishment is supposed to reform offenders to either stop the crimes happening in the first place or to strongly discourage re offending. However it appears that jail time increases the likelihood for re offending.AussieReaper wrote:
It depends if you want to just punish criminals or reform them also.
Ultimately everybody wants to stop / decrease / minimize crime rates. Lowing reckons that throwing everybody in jail for all crimes would immediately solve the problem, I am arguing that this approach is too naive and demonstrably failing while creating an overcrowding problem.
You cant change everybody and its not something I ever said. If you check my post I said there is a balance to be found and currently we are turning citizens into repeat offenders that could otherwise be useful members of society.
At no point have I tried to say that criminals are blameless or that it is societies fault, you are just hearing what you want to hear. You have failed to address any of the points I made and have instead gone onto a baseless rant.
Its late and shit so ill answer the other post tomorrow.
And while we're on it, maybe the fact that close people to me have spent lengthy time in jail for completely retarded reasons and dealing with my ex partner announcing she had been sexually assualted by her grandfather for many years and me having to deal with the fallout from that and the entire police investigation / court cases etc, maybe because I have far more first hand experience of this shit than I ever wanted, just maybe that has had some influence on my view.
So Lowing, perhaps you would feel differently if you had actually been exposed to police / court / prison instead of gobbing off over the internet about idealistic bullshit.
Last edited by Cheeky_Ninja06 (2011-07-12 16:29:40)
Nope. "ordinary people that fucked up once" really don't need rehab to know they fucked up do they? If they make illegal choices from shitty situations they put themselves in, then it was probably their shitty decision making that put them in their shitty situation. Stop trying to make excuses for shitheads for once and accept the fact, with all the social help available turning to crime really isn't the only choice someone has.Cheeky_Ninja06 wrote:
So every single person who goes to jail is a life long criminal? Nobody is just an ordinary person that fucked up once? Nobody ever goes to prison for being in a really shit position and making illegal choices?lowing wrote:
No, what is naive is to think you can change people that really don't want to change. Fact is you can not. People are going to act the way they will, until THEY decide to change, not when you decide to change them. I say fuck them until thy are ready to make whatever changes they need to make to become socially acceptable, and stop with this bullshit hand holding and treating criminals like THEY are the victims.Cheeky_Ninja06 wrote:
The thing is that punishment is supposed to reform offenders to either stop the crimes happening in the first place or to strongly discourage re offending. However it appears that jail time increases the likelihood for re offending.
Ultimately everybody wants to stop / decrease / minimize crime rates. Lowing reckons that throwing everybody in jail for all crimes would immediately solve the problem, I am arguing that this approach is too naive and demonstrably failing while creating an overcrowding problem.
You cant change everybody and its not something I ever said. If you check my post I said there is a balance to be found and currently we are turning citizens into repeat offenders that could otherwise be useful members of society.
At no point have I tried to say that criminals are blameless or that it is societies fault, you are just hearing what you want to hear. You have failed to address any of the points I made and have instead gone onto a baseless rant.
Its late and shit so ill answer the other post tomorrow.
And while we're on it, maybe the fact that close people to me have spent lengthy time in jail for completely retarded reasons and dealing with my ex partner announcing she had been sexually assualted by her grandfather for many years and me having to deal with the fallout from that and the entire police investigation / court cases etc, maybe because I have far more first hand experience of this shit than I ever wanted, just maybe that has had some influence on my view.
So Lowing, perhaps you would feel differently if you had actually been exposed to police / court / prison instead of gobbing off over the internet about idealistic bullshit.
Again WE are not turning people into anything, PEOPLE are making their choices, so yes, I have addressed your posts, and my answer will ALWYS fall on the responsibility of the individual.
If you are not trying to pawn this shit on society, then stop trying to tell me what "WE are doing to TURN people into repeat offenders" and start addressing what PEOPLE are DOING to others.
As for the last part, maybe you should choose better people to hang around yourself, then you won't have to put up with any of their bullshit. Again, it goes back to our personal choices.
Perhaps I would, however I choose to distance myself from people that are in trouble with the law for dumb fuck decisions they have made. Call it my personal choice.
Last edited by lowing (2011-07-12 17:59:08)
Shows how little you know about people. Guess that makes you a lost cause, no?lowing wrote:
Actually it isn't the same argument, because I little kid may or may not know the difference between right and wrong. If, as an adult, you still don't know, you are already a lost cause.Jaekus wrote:
Same argument as you can either punish then teach a child what is the wrong thing and why, or beat them into submission so they never do it again, and all they learn is resentment and to treat other people the same way. I wonder which side lowing is on.AussieReaper wrote:
It depends if you want to just punish criminals or reform them also.
lol, if you say so. Although, with the life I have built for myself and my family, you can stop worrying about rehabbing me.Jaekus wrote:
Shows how little you know about people. Guess that makes you a lost cause, no?lowing wrote:
Actually it isn't the same argument, because I little kid may or may not know the difference between right and wrong. If, as an adult, you still don't know, you are already a lost cause.Jaekus wrote:
Same argument as you can either punish then teach a child what is the wrong thing and why, or beat them into submission so they never do it again, and all they learn is resentment and to treat other people the same way. I wonder which side lowing is on.
I was never worried. Can't teach an old dog new tricks.
Nope, so why spend money on rehab trying? Now you get my point.Jaekus wrote:
I was never worried. Can't teach an old dog new tricks.
I was referring to you as the told dog, derp.lowing wrote:
Nope, so why spend money on rehab trying? Now you get my point.Jaekus wrote:
I was never worried. Can't teach an old dog new tricks.
Oh I thought you meant all old dogs. If you meant me, you shoulda just said you can't teach ME new tricks.Jaekus wrote:
I was referring to you as the told dog, derp.lowing wrote:
Nope, so why spend money on rehab trying? Now you get my point.Jaekus wrote:
I was never worried. Can't teach an old dog new tricks.
Last edited by lowing (2011-07-12 18:50:37)
Did I say they needed Rehab? No I simply said that they do not need jail time. As you admitted, they know they fucked up and are unlikely to do it again. Handing them a significant jail term and mixing with all the people that view crime as a way of life is not beneficial and only increases the chances of re offending.lowing wrote:
Nope. "ordinary people that fucked up once" really don't need rehab to know they fucked up do they? If they make illegal choices from shitty situations they put themselves in, then it was probably their shitty decision making that put them in their shitty situation. Stop trying to make excuses for shitheads for once and accept the fact, with all the social help available turning to crime really isn't the only choice someone has.
FYI Good people sometimes do bad things.
I never moved away from personal responsibility. My case was and always has been that we send too many people to Jail. Many criminals need to go to jail, however not as many as we send.Again WE are not turning people into anything, PEOPLE are making their choices, so yes, I have addressed your posts, and my answer will ALWYS fall on the responsibility of the individual.
If you are so fussed about the victims then why ignore the fact that you are creating more of them with the failing jail system? Yes people make choices but those choices are based on their life experiences. Again even though I have stated as much in every single post I have made, Jail is the right place for a significant proportion of criminals however it is not the right place for all criminals.If you are not trying to pawn this shit on society, then stop trying to tell me what "WE are doing to TURN people into repeat offenders" and start addressing what PEOPLE are DOING to others.
Ah I see. So the whole point that I have significant first hand experience of the system, how it works and where it sucks is completely irrelevant because its my fault I know anything about it.As for the last part, maybe you should choose better people to hang around yourself, then you won't have to put up with any of their bullshit. Again, it goes back to our personal choices.
I wish I could also claim the magic sight beyond sight that you have where you can instantly tell peoples backgrounds and know them inside out. Believe it or not bad things are done by good people. Do you think all serial killers walk around with serial killer stamped across their forehead? Have you not noticed whenever somebody dies or gets arrested all the neighbors, family and friends say "I cant believe they would do something like this, they seemed such an upstanding member of society, he must be innocent..."etc etc.Perhaps I would, however I choose to distance myself from people that are in trouble with the law for dumb fuck decisions they have made. Call it my personal choice.
Gunna disagree, if you merely "fucked up once", you still "fucked up" and need to answer for it. If you are talking about drug related shit, I have always maintained, I would like to see drugs legalized, taxed and fuck them.Cheeky_Ninja06 wrote:
Did I say they needed Rehab? No I simply said that they do not need jail time. As you admitted, they know they fucked up and are unlikely to do it again. Handing them a significant jail term and mixing with all the people that view crime as a way of life is not beneficial and only increases the chances of re offending.lowing wrote:
Nope. "ordinary people that fucked up once" really don't need rehab to know they fucked up do they? If they make illegal choices from shitty situations they put themselves in, then it was probably their shitty decision making that put them in their shitty situation. Stop trying to make excuses for shitheads for once and accept the fact, with all the social help available turning to crime really isn't the only choice someone has.
FYI Good people sometimes do bad things.I never moved away from personal responsibility. My case was and always has been that we send too many people to Jail. Many criminals need to go to jail, however not as many as we send.Again WE are not turning people into anything, PEOPLE are making their choices, so yes, I have addressed your posts, and my answer will ALWYS fall on the responsibility of the individual.If you are so fussed about the victims then why ignore the fact that you are creating more of them with the failing jail system? Yes people make choices but those choices are based on their life experiences. Again even though I have stated as much in every single post I have made, Jail is the right place for a significant proportion of criminals however it is not the right place for all criminals.If you are not trying to pawn this shit on society, then stop trying to tell me what "WE are doing to TURN people into repeat offenders" and start addressing what PEOPLE are DOING to others.Ah I see. So the whole point that I have significant first hand experience of the system, how it works and where it sucks is completely irrelevant because its my fault I know anything about it.As for the last part, maybe you should choose better people to hang around yourself, then you won't have to put up with any of their bullshit. Again, it goes back to our personal choices.I wish I could also claim the magic sight beyond sight that you have where you can instantly tell peoples backgrounds and know them inside out. Believe it or not bad things are done by good people. Do you think all serial killers walk around with serial killer stamped across their forehead? Have you not noticed whenever somebody dies or gets arrested all the neighbors, family and friends say "I cant believe they would do something like this, they seemed such an upstanding member of society, he must be innocent..."etc etc.Perhaps I would, however I choose to distance myself from people that are in trouble with the law for dumb fuck decisions they have made. Call it my personal choice.
Good people do bad things huh? Is this where the criminal gets killed during a home invasion and we all listen to his mother talk about what a "good boy he was"? Sorry, if you are a "good person", you do not victimize others. Kinda goes with the rest of job description.
Gunna disagree with you there as well, excluding drug possession and usage, what criminals do not need to go to jail?
Again I AM NOT CREATING criminals. People make choices. You act as if staying out of trouble NOT victimizing another person or NOT becoming a felon is so hard to do in our country. Wether you know it or not, you are victimizing the criminal and putting the blame on society. We are a first world nation, even our poor live better than people in other countries, stop trying to rationalize criminal behavior, by saying it is their environment, it was the way they were raised, his teachers didn't like him, etc....Regardless as to our environment, we are still accountable, and it is still easy to choose to NOT be a fuckin felon.
Never once did I say your opinion was irrelevant, I have never done that to any member in this forum. I will disagree with you and argue with you, but never insist what you think is irrelevant. I have 2 EX-friends in jail now, both for very serious unrelated crimes, violent crimes and guess what, they are no longer my friends. Imagine that, I walked away from them, a personal choice. I will not have my sons see me associating with people that have done what these 2 are guilty of. And yes, none of us could believe that they did what they did and people would not accept it, and insist they are innocent based on denial more than fact. These guys were family men, good stable home and work environments, I know exactly what you are talking about. They both have made the news so I will not go into details about what they did or who they are.
As an immediate off the top of my head example. A farmer was robbed multiple times and the police were next to useless. The next time he was robbed he shot (killing) one of the robbers while another escaped. The farmer was then sentenced to prison for murder. He did commit murder, but hes not exactly a danger to society.
I know of somebody who has a 2 year prison sentence for committing an £800 fraud when he was earning over 150k a year. Obviously he argues it was an accounting error rather than deliberate. However he will be spending those 2 years mixing with all the typical criminals such as your ABH / GBH, murderers, sex criminals, perhaps more serious fraudsters.
Contrastingly a cyclist shouted at somebody to move out of the way or he'd run them over, they didn't move, he hit and killed them receiving a £2,000 fine. That doesn't feel like justice to me.
Other crimes that warrant prison time:
Graffiti
Prostitution
Drug possession
Dangerous driving
Graffiti is an interesting one as it could arguably be the start of a slippery slope OR it could be "grown out of" and just something a normal member of society looks back on as something stupid they did when they were younger.
Prostitution, again as I said sometimes good people are driven to do bad things. Yes its a crime but it easy to imagine a situation where somebody feels they have no other option. I am not saying it is all societies fault but im sure you can agree that given the choice many people would not be involved in prostitution.
Drug possession, well you have already agreed this needs reform.
Dangerous driving, another example of good people doing bad / stupid things. A rather famous example went around the internet community a couple of years back where somebody failed to properly read the road conditions and ended up half spinning in the road, at just the wrong time a motorcyclist came in the other direction around the blind corner and straight into the side of the spun car receiving multiple serious injuries. The car driver received a lengthy jail sentence, understandably due to the injuries to the motorcyclist. However, I wouldn't go so far as to say that the car driver required a stay in the prison hell you would like to create to appreciate the error of his ways and would argue that it would have little positive effect. Half spinning is a situation I would estimate that the vast majority (if not all) car drivers have or will experience at least once throughout their driving career unfortunately on this occasion a motorcyclist was in the wrong place at the wrong time but in any other instance the accident would have gone completely unpunished. Im not sure on the correct answer but it is perhaps food for thought.
While few of these crimes are victimless none of these perpetrators had intent to cause harm / personal injury with the exception of graffiti property damage.
I have not once tried to remove blame from the criminals, I did not suggest it was their teachers fault or anything else. I am staggered that you continue to deny that exposure to prison increases the likelihood of re offending.
You yourself stated that you are trying to set an example to your children by showing them not to get involved with the wrong crowd, yet you continue to deny that lumping people in with the wrong crowd can have any impact upon their future choices.
EDIT:
Thats almost the same failure rate as you are slating rehab for. So by your own argument it is a complete waste of time and money.
I know of somebody who has a 2 year prison sentence for committing an £800 fraud when he was earning over 150k a year. Obviously he argues it was an accounting error rather than deliberate. However he will be spending those 2 years mixing with all the typical criminals such as your ABH / GBH, murderers, sex criminals, perhaps more serious fraudsters.
Contrastingly a cyclist shouted at somebody to move out of the way or he'd run them over, they didn't move, he hit and killed them receiving a £2,000 fine. That doesn't feel like justice to me.
Other crimes that warrant prison time:
Graffiti
Prostitution
Drug possession
Dangerous driving
Graffiti is an interesting one as it could arguably be the start of a slippery slope OR it could be "grown out of" and just something a normal member of society looks back on as something stupid they did when they were younger.
Prostitution, again as I said sometimes good people are driven to do bad things. Yes its a crime but it easy to imagine a situation where somebody feels they have no other option. I am not saying it is all societies fault but im sure you can agree that given the choice many people would not be involved in prostitution.
Drug possession, well you have already agreed this needs reform.
Dangerous driving, another example of good people doing bad / stupid things. A rather famous example went around the internet community a couple of years back where somebody failed to properly read the road conditions and ended up half spinning in the road, at just the wrong time a motorcyclist came in the other direction around the blind corner and straight into the side of the spun car receiving multiple serious injuries. The car driver received a lengthy jail sentence, understandably due to the injuries to the motorcyclist. However, I wouldn't go so far as to say that the car driver required a stay in the prison hell you would like to create to appreciate the error of his ways and would argue that it would have little positive effect. Half spinning is a situation I would estimate that the vast majority (if not all) car drivers have or will experience at least once throughout their driving career unfortunately on this occasion a motorcyclist was in the wrong place at the wrong time but in any other instance the accident would have gone completely unpunished. Im not sure on the correct answer but it is perhaps food for thought.
While few of these crimes are victimless none of these perpetrators had intent to cause harm / personal injury with the exception of graffiti property damage.
I have not once tried to remove blame from the criminals, I did not suggest it was their teachers fault or anything else. I am staggered that you continue to deny that exposure to prison increases the likelihood of re offending.
You yourself stated that you are trying to set an example to your children by showing them not to get involved with the wrong crowd, yet you continue to deny that lumping people in with the wrong crowd can have any impact upon their future choices.
EDIT:
http://www.rethinking.org.uk/facts/reth … ldren.htmlReconviction rates for children leaving prison are high. Of 14-16 year olds released in 1997, 84% were reconvicted within two years, with 6 out of 10 going back to prison.
Thats almost the same failure rate as you are slating rehab for. So by your own argument it is a complete waste of time and money.
Last edited by Cheeky_Ninja06 (2011-07-13 06:46:56)