fuck prisoners and their human rights, they should never have more rights than their victims. If they want their rights maintained and are worried about rights, then they can start by respecting the rights of others before they earn the "right" to prison life.Jaekus wrote:
As far as making prison "hell on earth" there are certain human rights laws that need to be followed. Unless you are incarcerated in Gitmo.
I dunno does Saudi or Turkey have prison population issues?Spark wrote:
Does this really work though? My feeling is that this does very little to reduce crime rates real-world.lowing wrote:
Dunno, but there was more to what I said, and that was make prison, so bad people will be afraid to go. Not this bullshit of prisoners thinking they are in a position to make demands.Spark wrote:
What proportion of prisoners are in for capital crimes anyway? I can't imagine it'd make a huge difference.
Possibly. I don't know. Surely you're not suggesting you go to that extreme though?lowing wrote:
I dunno does Saudi or Turkey have prison population issues?Spark wrote:
Does this really work though? My feeling is that this does very little to reduce crime rates real-world.lowing wrote:
Dunno, but there was more to what I said, and that was make prison, so bad people will be afraid to go. Not this bullshit of prisoners thinking they are in a position to make demands.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
Well, if I hadn't made my self clear before, let me do so now. Prison should be just that PRISON, I am not interested in "rehabilitation" I am interested in punishment for what they did to an innocent person. They deserve no more freedom, rights, or luxury or say, than they left their victims.Spark wrote:
Possibly. I don't know. Surely you're not suggesting you go to that extreme though?lowing wrote:
I dunno does Saudi or Turkey have prison population issues?Spark wrote:
Does this really work though? My feeling is that this does very little to reduce crime rates real-world.
Last edited by lowing (2011-07-09 03:41:23)
So what, back to the days of hanging people by their toes? Let me know how that works out for you if you ever become wrongly convicted for something.lowing wrote:
I don't care what their "demands" are. The very thought they think they are allowed to demand anything says something is wrong with the system.unnamednewbie13 wrote:
A number of the listed demands are fair and some are laughably non-punitive. Prison's often presented as "rehabilitation," but it doesn't mean you have to turn it into a bloody resort. However, if so many are willing to suffer for publicity, then something's wrong (by American standards). One solution would be to drastically reduce prison population by adapting (GASP!) to the failed war on drugs.
You guys are always talking about the wrongly convicted. It is a tiresome argument. Do you think there are ANY guilty fuckers in prison at all? This argument goes under the assumption that they are in prison because they are guilty. Are you actually suggesting we make prison a resort, just in case there is an innocent person in prison?unnamednewbie13 wrote:
So what, back to the days of hanging people by their toes? Let me know how that works out for you if you ever become wrongly convicted for something.lowing wrote:
I don't care what their "demands" are. The very thought they think they are allowed to demand anything says something is wrong with the system.unnamednewbie13 wrote:
A number of the listed demands are fair and some are laughably non-punitive. Prison's often presented as "rehabilitation," but it doesn't mean you have to turn it into a bloody resort. However, if so many are willing to suffer for publicity, then something's wrong (by American standards). One solution would be to drastically reduce prison population by adapting (GASP!) to the failed war on drugs.
Do you think a prisoner should actually have a voice, and make demands?
Last edited by lowing (2011-07-09 03:54:01)
Because the only choices in the matter are holiday resort and torture chamber, totally.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
didn't say torture chamber, I said make life in prison hell and a place you really don't want to be and will want to avoid.Spark wrote:
Because the only choices in the matter are holiday resort and torture chamber, totally.
by the way, what do you call gyms libraries, cable tv, movies, free college etc...? Sound like prison to you?
Last edited by lowing (2011-07-09 03:59:55)
Yes.lowing wrote:
You guys are always talking about the wrongly convicted. It is a tiresome argument. Do you think there are ANY guilty fuckers in prison at all? This argument goes under the assumption that they are in prison because they are guilty. Are you actually suggesting we make prison a resort, just in case there is an innocent person in prison?
No.
Yes I do, if the demands are justified.Do you think a prisoner should actually have a voice, and make demands?
A huge number of them are going to be released from prison someday and reintegrated into society. That said, I don't mind tax dollars spent in an effort to rehab some of these butt heads. What I do mind are already bogged-down prisons getting buried under the weight of drug convictions and other comparatively insignificant crimes and the understaffing (and/or low-quality staffing) and budget issues it creates.
justified demands? Sorry, compared to the begging and pleading by innocent people not to be hurt or killed, there are no "demands" of theirs I am interested in listening to. They are in prison they already had their justice, they have nothing left to "justify".unnamednewbie13 wrote:
Yes.lowing wrote:
You guys are always talking about the wrongly convicted. It is a tiresome argument. Do you think there are ANY guilty fuckers in prison at all? This argument goes under the assumption that they are in prison because they are guilty. Are you actually suggesting we make prison a resort, just in case there is an innocent person in prison?
No.Yes I do, if the demands are justified.Do you think a prisoner should actually have a voice, and make demands?
A huge number of them are going to be released from prison someday and reintegrated into society. That said, I don't mind tax dollars spent in an effort to rehab some of these butt heads. What I do mind are already bogged-down prisons getting buried under the weight of drug convictions and other comparatively insignificant crimes and the understaffing (and/or low-quality staffing) and budget issues it creates.
If they don't feel they can reintegrate THEMSELVES back into society without hurting someone else, then they can stay in prison, and why would you suggest they be released in the first place?
Last edited by lowing (2011-07-09 04:16:00)
It doesn't. Studies on prisoners have shown that the vast majority commited their crimes out of impulse.Spark wrote:
Does this really work though? My feeling is that this does very little to reduce crime rates real-world.lowing wrote:
Dunno, but there was more to what I said, and that was make prison, so bad people will be afraid to go. Not this bullshit of prisoners thinking they are in a position to make demands.Spark wrote:
What proportion of prisoners are in for capital crimes anyway? I can't imagine it'd make a huge difference.
That was exactly my suspicion, yes. Your average criminal robbing a corner shop is not thinking of weighing up pro's/con's and making the sort of analytical judgement where the quality/harshness of prisons would come into it.Macbeth wrote:
It doesn't. Studies on prisoners have shown that the vast majority commited their crimes out of impulse.Spark wrote:
Does this really work though? My feeling is that this does very little to reduce crime rates real-world.lowing wrote:
Dunno, but there was more to what I said, and that was make prison, so bad people will be afraid to go. Not this bullshit of prisoners thinking they are in a position to make demands.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
Well then if everything is done out of impulse, rehab isn't really the answer then either is it? So better to serve justice for the victims.Macbeth wrote:
It doesn't. Studies on prisoners have shown that the vast majority commited their crimes out of impulse.Spark wrote:
Does this really work though? My feeling is that this does very little to reduce crime rates real-world.lowing wrote:
Dunno, but there was more to what I said, and that was make prison, so bad people will be afraid to go. Not this bullshit of prisoners thinking they are in a position to make demands.
Rehabilitation teaches impulse control, among other things. Sit in on a drug rehab group some day.
I don't know. I'm not a criminologist, I haven't seen the studies.lowing wrote:
Well then if everything is done out of impulse, rehab isn't really the answer then either is it? So better to serve justice for the victims.Macbeth wrote:
It doesn't. Studies on prisoners have shown that the vast majority commited their crimes out of impulse.Spark wrote:
Does this really work though? My feeling is that this does very little to reduce crime rates real-world.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
Impulse means done without thinking. If they do not have the capacity to think about their victims, or the consequences for their actions, then they certainly do not have the capacity to think about what they learned in fuckin rehab. Maybe the reason there are so many criminals going back to jail or back on the crack pipe or back in the bottle after "rehab"? Maybe?Macbeth wrote:
Rehabilitation teaches impulse control, among other things. Sit in on a drug rehab group some day.
No, it does not.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
Do you have to be a criminologist to feel that criminals actually should be punished for their crimes? I think what is lost here is, prison and punishment is not for the criminal but for the victim.Spark wrote:
I don't know. I'm not a criminologist, I haven't seen the studies.lowing wrote:
Well then if everything is done out of impulse, rehab isn't really the answer then either is it? So better to serve justice for the victims.Macbeth wrote:
It doesn't. Studies on prisoners have shown that the vast majority commited their crimes out of impulse.
yeah ok. then maybe you can explain it, then explain why rehab is such a miserable failure.Spark wrote:
No, it does not.
You put far too much stock in what "feels" right morally, in what people "deserve".lowing wrote:
Do you have to be a criminologist to feel that criminals actually should be punished for their crimes? I think what is lost here is, prison and punishment is not for the criminal but for the victim.Spark wrote:
I don't know. I'm not a criminologist, I haven't seen the studies.lowing wrote:
Well then if everything is done out of impulse, rehab isn't really the answer then either is it? So better to serve justice for the victims.
I'm much more concerned about what actually works in the real world.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
Got any studies to show that it's a failure? That it doesn't actually reduce repeat offence rates?lowing wrote:
yeah ok. then maybe you can explain it, then explain why rehab is such a miserable failure.Spark wrote:
No, it does not.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
Don't look now, but hand holding, appeasing and a weak system of punishment ain't workin'Spark wrote:
You put far too much stock in what "feels" right morally, in what people "deserve".lowing wrote:
Do you have to be a criminologist to feel that criminals actually should be punished for their crimes? I think what is lost here is, prison and punishment is not for the criminal but for the victim.Spark wrote:
I don't know. I'm not a criminologist, I haven't seen the studies.
I'm much more concerned about what actually works in the real world.
Prison is not easy. A library and a shared television doesn't make the fact you have to sleep in a closet away from all your friends and family in perpetual fear of rape and murder any easier.
Upping the punishments for violent crime and juvenile offenders I can agree to but "make prison hell" sounds like something a suburban teen who gets picked on at school would say.
Upping the punishments for violent crime and juvenile offenders I can agree to but "make prison hell" sounds like something a suburban teen who gets picked on at school would say.
Well this is the stats of alcohol and drug rehab. If you think there should be rehab for violent crimes, I will respectfully disagree.Spark wrote:
Got any studies to show that it's a failure? That it doesn't actually reduce repeat offence rates?lowing wrote:
yeah ok. then maybe you can explain it, then explain why rehab is such a miserable failure.Spark wrote:
No, it does not.
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html
"Even the most ardent true believers who will be honest about it recognize that A.A. and N.A. have at least 90% failure rates. And the real numbers are more like 95% or 98% or 100% failure rates. It depends on who is doing the counting, how they are counting, and what they are counting or measuring."
not hardly, to make prison hell, means to make it as uncomfortable and unpleasant as possible. I will just have to disagree that sharing a tv with strangers, away from your buddies is quite hellish enough..Macbeth wrote:
Prison is not easy. A library and a shared television doesn't make the fact you have to sleep in a closet away from all your friends and family in perpetual fear of rape and murder any easier.
Upping the punishments for violent crime and juvenile offenders I can agree to but "make prison hell" sounds like something a suburban teen who gets picked on at school would say.