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2011-06-25 09:40:56
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6891|USA
I would like to continue the discussion of "gay rights", and specifically about NY allowing same sex marriages to only gay people.  To me that is discrimination against everyone else.

Should there be laws that cater to specific groups like the gay community? Allowing them special rights over another person, or even special hate crimes that punish worse for hurting one of them over hurting a straight person?
2011-06-25 09:43:31
SEREMAKER
BABYMAKIN EXPERT √
+2,187|6808|Mountains of NC

everyone should follow the bill of rights
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/17445/carhartt.jpg
2011-06-25 09:44:33
tuckergustav
...
+1,590|6153|...

Marrying the person you love has been a right allowed to straight people for a long time.  Granting that right to gay people is not giving them special rights, it is extending the right to include everyone.
...
2011-06-25 09:44:59
Hurricane2k9
Pendulous Sweaty Balls
+1,538|5941|College Park, MD
I generally don't agree with hate crime legislation (I think all crimes ought to be punished equally) but it's not as simple as simply hurting a gay person or a black person. If I get in to a fight with a guy and he happens to be gay, that's not a hate crime. If I'm calling him a "faggot" during the fight, that can be used as some sort of potential evidence for charging it as a hate crime. If the police find a manifesto on my computer that says "I'm gonna go kill this guy because he's a homosexual" then that's most certainly a hate crime.

Same for other types of hate crimes.

e: and like I said in the other thread, it's not only allowing marriage between two people of the same sexual orientation. It's marriage between two people of the same gender. There's no "gay test" to make sure.

Last edited by Hurricane2k9 (2011-06-25 09:45:48)

https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/36793/marylandsig.jpg
2011-06-25 09:47:37
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6891|USA

SEREMAKER wrote:

everyone should follow the bill of rights
Yeah but then you get into the church that does not cater to gays, are they allowed to discriminate against them, or are they allowed to stay true to what they believe in?  Will the church get sued for not marrying a gay couple that happens to also be religious?
2011-06-25 09:49:57
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6891|USA

tuckergustav wrote:

Marrying the person you love has been a right allowed to straight people for a long time.  Granting that right to gay people is not giving them special rights, it is extending the right to include everyone.
It is IF you have to be gay in order to marry same sex.
2011-06-25 09:52:22
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6891|USA

Hurricane2k9 wrote:

I generally don't agree with hate crime legislation (I think all crimes ought to be punished equally) but it's not as simple as simply hurting a gay person or a black person. If I get in to a fight with a guy and he happens to be gay, that's not a hate crime. If I'm calling him a "faggot" during the fight, that can be used as some sort of potential evidence for charging it as a hate crime. If the police find a manifesto on my computer that says "I'm gonna go kill this guy because he's a homosexual" then that's most certainly a hate crime.

Same for other types of hate crimes.

e: and like I said in the other thread, it's not only allowing marriage between two people of the same sexual orientation. It's marriage between two people of the same gender. There's no "gay test" to make sure.
Well the articles are calling gay marriage, and that still leaves the questions I asked about the church. Are they discriminating now if they choose NOT to perform the ceremonies that go against their beliefs and does the govt. step in? How can you enforce such a law?
2011-06-25 09:52:53
SEREMAKER
BABYMAKIN EXPERT √
+2,187|6808|Mountains of NC

lowing wrote:

SEREMAKER wrote:

everyone should follow the bill of rights
Yeah but then you get into the church that does not cater to gays, are they allowed to discriminate against them, or are they allowed to stay true to what they believe in?  Will the church get sued for not marrying a gay couple that happens to also be religious?
gays right to go where they want to, churchs right to refuse
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/17445/carhartt.jpg
2011-06-25 09:55:13
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6891|USA

Hurricane2k9 wrote:

I generally don't agree with hate crime legislation (I think all crimes ought to be punished equally) but it's not as simple as simply hurting a gay person or a black person. If I get in to a fight with a guy and he happens to be gay, that's not a hate crime. If I'm calling him a "faggot" during the fight, that can be used as some sort of potential evidence for charging it as a hate crime. If the police find a manifesto on my computer that says "I'm gonna go kill this guy because he's a homosexual" then that's most certainly a hate crime.

Same for other types of hate crimes.

e: and like I said in the other thread, it's not only allowing marriage between two people of the same sexual orientation. It's marriage between two people of the same gender. There's no "gay test" to make sure.
If I get into a fight with a guy that happens to be fat, and in the heat of the fight I call him a fat ass, is that a hate crime? Probably not.

Problem is, assault is assault, regardless of circumstances and to have laws that allow, assault against a gay guy or a black guy special considerations is wrong.
2011-06-25 09:56:23
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6891|USA

SEREMAKER wrote:

lowing wrote:

SEREMAKER wrote:

everyone should follow the bill of rights
Yeah but then you get into the church that does not cater to gays, are they allowed to discriminate against them, or are they allowed to stay true to what they believe in?  Will the church get sued for not marrying a gay couple that happens to also be religious?
gays right to go where they want to, churchs right to refuse
So gays will have no right to sue for discrimination if a church refuses to perform the ceremony? Bet lawsuits just like that are on the horizon.
2011-06-25 10:08:06
SEREMAKER
BABYMAKIN EXPERT √
+2,187|6808|Mountains of NC

lowing wrote:

SEREMAKER wrote:

lowing wrote:


Yeah but then you get into the church that does not cater to gays, are they allowed to discriminate against them, or are they allowed to stay true to what they believe in?  Will the church get sued for not marrying a gay couple that happens to also be religious?
gays right to go where they want to, churchs right to refuse
So gays will have no right to sue for discrimination if a church refuses to perform the ceremony? Bet lawsuits just like that are on the horizon.
if I was a rainbow card carrying gay and the church across the street refused to marry me, would I be pissed no .... thats the right of the church to say no .... same as its now the right in NY that as a gay I can get married 

no law out there that states that the church has to marry anyone and everyone walking through the door


same as a restaurant or business .... they can toss out anyone they want ........ no law that quarantines me I will be served a kids meal at McDs
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/17445/carhartt.jpg
2011-06-25 10:11:22
tuckergustav
...
+1,590|6153|...

lowing wrote:

tuckergustav wrote:

Marrying the person you love has been a right allowed to straight people for a long time.  Granting that right to gay people is not giving them special rights, it is extending the right to include everyone.
It is IF you have to be gay in order to marry same sex.
I think it is just assumed that you would only want to marry someone of the same sex if you are gay...but I don't think there are any tests beforehand that you have to pass in order to marry another man/woman.  No special rights.  Just equal to the rights that straight people have always had.  I have to say, lowing, this is a bit of a reach.
...
2011-06-25 10:11:41
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6891|USA

SEREMAKER wrote:

lowing wrote:

SEREMAKER wrote:


gays right to go where they want to, churchs right to refuse
So gays will have no right to sue for discrimination if a church refuses to perform the ceremony? Bet lawsuits just like that are on the horizon.
if I was a rainbow card carrying gay and the church across the street refused to marry me, would I be pissed no .... thats the right of the church to say no .... same as its now the right in NY that as a gay I can get married 

no law out there that states that the church has to marry anyone and everyone walking through the door


same as a restaurant or business .... they can toss out anyone they want ........ no law that quarantines me I will be served a kids meal at McDs
Not true, see what happens when a business refuses service to a gay guy for being gay, or a black guy for being black. There are laws to protect against discrimination, and rightfully so, but to say gays or anyone one else has special considerations, is itself discrimination.
2011-06-25 10:14:39
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|6921|Disaster Free Zone

lowing wrote:

specifically about NY allowing same sex marriages to only gay people.  To me that is discrimination against everyone else.
It Wasn't.

Should there be laws that cater to specific groups like the gay community? Allowing them special rights over another person
No

or even special hate crimes that punish worse for hurting one of them over hurting a person of different sexual orientation?
Yes [edited]
2011-06-25 10:18:00
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6891|USA

DrunkFace wrote:

lowing wrote:

specifically about NY allowing same sex marriages to only gay people.  To me that is discrimination against everyone else.
It Wasn't.

Should there be laws that cater to specific groups like the gay community? Allowing them special rights over another person
No

or even special hate crimes that punish worse for hurting one of them over hurting a person of different sexual orientation?
Yes [edited]
any chance you wanna elaborate, especially on that last one?
2011-06-25 10:20:48
Vilham
Say wat!?
+580|7006|UK

lowing wrote:

tuckergustav wrote:

Marrying the person you love has been a right allowed to straight people for a long time.  Granting that right to gay people is not giving them special rights, it is extending the right to include everyone.
It is IF you have to be gay in order to marry same sex.
so what your saying lowing is that you want to be able to marry your best friend aye. Then give him some pork yeah.
2011-06-25 10:21:18
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5598|London, England

lowing wrote:

Hurricane2k9 wrote:

I generally don't agree with hate crime legislation (I think all crimes ought to be punished equally) but it's not as simple as simply hurting a gay person or a black person. If I get in to a fight with a guy and he happens to be gay, that's not a hate crime. If I'm calling him a "faggot" during the fight, that can be used as some sort of potential evidence for charging it as a hate crime. If the police find a manifesto on my computer that says "I'm gonna go kill this guy because he's a homosexual" then that's most certainly a hate crime.

Same for other types of hate crimes.

e: and like I said in the other thread, it's not only allowing marriage between two people of the same sexual orientation. It's marriage between two people of the same gender. There's no "gay test" to make sure.
Well the articles are calling gay marriage, and that still leaves the questions I asked about the church. Are they discriminating now if they choose NOT to perform the ceremonies that go against their beliefs and does the govt. step in? How can you enforce such a law?
How about you read the article?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-06-25 10:22:44
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5598|London, England

SEREMAKER wrote:

lowing wrote:

SEREMAKER wrote:


gays right to go where they want to, churchs right to refuse
So gays will have no right to sue for discrimination if a church refuses to perform the ceremony? Bet lawsuits just like that are on the horizon.
if I was a rainbow card carrying gay and the church across the street refused to marry me, would I be pissed no .... thats the right of the church to say no .... same as its now the right in NY that as a gay I can get married 

no law out there that states that the church has to marry anyone and everyone walking through the door


same as a restaurant or business .... they can toss out anyone they want ........ no law that quarantines me I will be served a kids meal at McDs
The law passed in New York even prevents churches from having to face lawsuits based on the law. No one is going to be able to sue to have their gay wedding inside of a Catholic church.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-06-25 10:24:25
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|6921|Disaster Free Zone

lowing wrote:

DrunkFace wrote:

lowing wrote:

specifically about NY allowing same sex marriages to only gay people.  To me that is discrimination against everyone else.
It Wasn't.

Should there be laws that cater to specific groups like the gay community? Allowing them special rights over another person
No

or even special hate crimes that punish worse for hurting one of them over hurting a person of different sexual orientation?
Yes [edited]
any chance you wanna elaborate, especially on that last one?
1. Gay marriage refers to the ability for people of the same gender to get married. There is no "Gay Test". The laws are the same for everyone, gay straight, bi or asexual.

2. Pretty self explanatory.

3. A hate crime it not minority specific. Also a hate crime can only be charged when a motive is established.

It's in essence the same as premeditation in a murder case, someone specifically went out and targeted someone or group based on X, Y or Z trait. I believe that someones motive is just, if not more important then the actual crime its self.

Last edited by DrunkFace (2011-06-25 10:29:11)

2011-06-25 10:26:16
13rin
Member
+977|6719

Jay wrote:

The law passed in New York even prevents churches from having to face lawsuits based on the law. No one is going to be able to sue to have their gay wedding inside of a Catholic church.
If I remember correctly that was the hang up with the legislation... Insulating the church from litigation.
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
2011-06-25 10:26:29
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5825

If I had infinite power over every level of U.S. government I would do away with hate crime laws and just greatly up the punishment for violent crimes. That'll eliminate most of the need for hate crime laws though there will still be issues on the law enforcement end. /only read the OP
2011-06-25 10:28:59
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5598|London, England

13rin wrote:

Jay wrote:

The law passed in New York even prevents churches from having to face lawsuits based on the law. No one is going to be able to sue to have their gay wedding inside of a Catholic church.
If I remember correctly that was the hang up with the legislation... Insulating the church from litigation.
Which I think is perfectly reasonable. They're a private club of sorts, and should be allowed to do as they please (as long as they aren't violating criminal law).
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-06-25 10:29:20
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6891|USA

DrunkFace wrote:

lowing wrote:

DrunkFace wrote:

lowing wrote:

specifically about NY allowing same sex marriages to only gay people.  To me that is discrimination against everyone else.
It Wasn't.

Should there be laws that cater to specific groups like the gay community? Allowing them special rights over another person
No


Yes [edited]
any chance you wanna elaborate, especially on that last one?
A hate crime it not minority specific. Also a hate crime can only be charged when a motive is established.

It's in essence the same as premeditation in a murder case, someone specifically went out and targeted someone or group based on X, Y or Z trait.
Well I know I am going to sound like a smart ass but I am sincere in the asking. COuld you not apply the logic to any group of people? IE a rich guy got car jacked because he was rich and driving a benz. and if you can apply that to everyone, why not just increase the punishments under the current laws instead of re-inventing the wheel?
2011-06-25 10:34:39
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|6921|Disaster Free Zone

lowing wrote:

DrunkFace wrote:

lowing wrote:

any chance you wanna elaborate, especially on that last one?
A hate crime it not minority specific. Also a hate crime can only be charged when a motive is established.

It's in essence the same as premeditation in a murder case, someone specifically went out and targeted someone or group based on X, Y or Z trait.
Well I know I am going to sound like a smart ass but I am sincere in the asking. COuld you not apply the logic to any group of people? IE a rich guy got car jacked because he was rich and driving a benz. and if you can apply that to everyone, why not just increase the punishments under the current laws instead of re-inventing the wheel?
If you can prove that being rich is not a choice then sure.

Saying that it brings in the whole religion hate crimes... Which I'm divided on.

Last edited by DrunkFace (2011-06-25 10:37:02)

2011-06-25 10:36:20
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6891|USA

13rin wrote:

Jay wrote:

The law passed in New York even prevents churches from having to face lawsuits based on the law. No one is going to be able to sue to have their gay wedding inside of a Catholic church.
If I remember correctly that was the hang up with the legislation... Insulating the church from litigation.
How about a ships captain who is also religious? Is he to be protected as well?

 

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