Jenspm
penis
+1,716|6972|St. Andrews / Oslo

At least 38 of the 50 states across America have introduced foetal homicide laws that were intended to protect pregnant women and their unborn children from violent attacks by third parties – usually abusive male partners – but are increasingly being turned by renegade prosecutors against the women themselves.

Rennie Gibbs is accused of murder, but the crime she is alleged to have committed does not sound like an ordinary killing. Yet she faces life in prison in Mississippi over the death of her unborn child.

Gibbs became pregnant aged 15, but lost the baby in December 2006 in a stillbirth when she was 36 weeks into the pregnancy. When prosecutors discovered that she had a cocaine habit – though there is no evidence that drug abuse had anything to do with the baby's death – they charged her with the "depraved-heart murder" of her child, which carries a mandatory life sentence.

Gibbs is the first woman in Mississippi to be charged with murder relating to the loss of her unborn baby. But her case is by no means isolated. Across the US more and more prosecutions are being brought that seek to turn pregnant women into criminals.

(...)

Bei Bei Shuai, 34, has spent the past three months in a prison cell in Indianapolis charged with murdering her baby. On 23 December she tried to commit suicide by taking rat poison after her boyfriend abandoned her.

Shuai was rushed to hospital and survived, but she was 33 weeks pregnant and her baby, to whom she gave birth a week after the suicide attempt and whom she called Angel, died after four days. In March Shuai was charged with murder and attempted foeticide and she has been in custody since without the offer of bail.

(...)

"If it's not a crime for a mother to intentionally end her pregnancy, how can it be a crime for her to do it unintentionally, whether by taking drugs or smoking or whatever it is," Robert McDuff, a civil rights lawyer asked the state supreme court.

(...)

Perhaps the most persuasive argument put forward in the amicus briefs is that if such prosecutions were designed to protect the unborn child, then they would be utterly counter-productive: "Prosecuting women and girls for continuing [a pregnancy] to term despite a drug addiction encourages them to terminate wanted pregnancies to avoid criminal penalties. The state could not have intended this result when it adopted the homicide statute."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/ju … er-charges

So, what do you think? Completely ridiculous, or should women be punished for reckless behaviour that ends up killing their foetus? Assuming abortion is legal, should stuff like this be illegal? Is it any different at all?

And on the other side of things - again assuming abortion is legal - should violence towards pregnant women be punished harsher than violence towards other women? Pro-choicers often argue that a foetus shouldn't be regarded as a living being as a way of justifying abortion - should this not, then, apply in cases of violence against them? Should words like foeticide and foetus homicide even exist?

Should sterilizing a man give you a life-sentence as well?

I know abortion-debates have been done to death, but I thought it might be interesting to approach it from a slightly different angle. Let's see.

Last edited by Jenspm (2011-06-24 17:07:06)

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Hurricane2k9
Pendulous Sweaty Balls
+1,538|5942|College Park, MD
That is a pretty interesting question actually.

I think that if the fetus is still at an age where abortion is legal, then stillbirth shouldn't be prosecuted. After that age, there has to be evidence that the person knew it wouldn't be good for the fetus I think.
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eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5499|foggy bottom
slippery sloped
Tu Stultus Es
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6891|USA
Yup I have no problem with charging them. Abortion is legal, but that doesn't mean sticking a coat hanger in your womb to kill the baby is legal. The abortion issue has nothing to do with this law.

reckless and irresponsible behavior that kills a fetus is not an abortion, it is murder under current laws, regardless as to who is being reckless and irresponsible.

Last edited by lowing (2011-06-24 17:26:20)

Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5418|Sydney
It's a bit rough to incarcerate someone who attempted suicide because they had a stillbirth as a result. Punishing her is not addressing the problem at all.
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|7015|Moscow, Russia

lowing wrote:

reckless and irresponsible behavior that kills a fetus is not an abortion, it is murder under current laws
the moment they declare this a "murder" you'll create a precedent of a foetus recognized as a person. which, in turn, will lead to abortion = murder. if this is not in some way a combination by pro-lifers, it sure as hell needs so be worded very carefully lest it becomes such combination.

Last edited by Shahter (2011-06-24 17:37:31)

if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6891|USA

Jaekus wrote:

It's a bit rough to incarcerate someone who attempted suicide because they had a stillbirth as a result. Punishing her is not addressing the problem at all.
That would be for a court of law to decide, I can certainly understand the charge however.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6891|USA

Shahter wrote:

lowing wrote:

reckless and irresponsible behavior that kills a fetus is not an abortion, it is murder under current laws
the moment they declare this a "murder" you'll create a precedent of a foetus recognized as a person. which, in turn, will lead to abortion = murder. if this is not in some way a combination by pro-lifers, it sure as hell needs so be worded very carefully lest it becomes such combination.
It is already murder and the fetus is recognized as a person under current laws in most states regarding the death of a fetus by assault. A woman gets attacked and the baby dies, the assailant is charged with murder.
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|7015|Moscow, Russia

lowing wrote:

Shahter wrote:

lowing wrote:

reckless and irresponsible behavior that kills a fetus is not an abortion, it is murder under current laws
the moment they declare this a "murder" you'll create a precedent of a foetus recognized as a person. which, in turn, will lead to abortion = murder. if this is not in some way a combination by pro-lifers, it sure as hell needs so be worded very carefully lest it becomes such combination.
It is already murder and the fetus is recognized as a person under current laws in most states regarding the death of a fetus by assault. A woman gets attacked and the baby dies, the assailant is charged with murder.
oh. that^ and abortion is legal in those states at the same time, right? that sure as hell sounds like a contradiction to me.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5418|Sydney

lowing wrote:

Jaekus wrote:

It's a bit rough to incarcerate someone who attempted suicide because they had a stillbirth as a result. Punishing her is not addressing the problem at all.
That would be for a court of law to decide, I can certainly understand the charge however.
It shouldn't go to the courts, it should go to professional help.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6891|USA

Shahter wrote:

lowing wrote:

Shahter wrote:


the moment they declare this a "murder" you'll create a precedent of a foetus recognized as a person. which, in turn, will lead to abortion = murder. if this is not in some way a combination by pro-lifers, it sure as hell needs so be worded very carefully lest it becomes such combination.
It is already murder and the fetus is recognized as a person under current laws in most states regarding the death of a fetus by assault. A woman gets attacked and the baby dies, the assailant is charged with murder.
oh. that^ and abortion is legal in those states at the same time, right? that sure as hell sounds like a contradiction to me.
I can not disagree with you.

However, the argument would be a woman has a right to choose, if they choose abortion there are legal procedures to accomplish it. Anything less than the legal methods is not abortion. If a woman does not choose the legal method of abortion and the baby dies by her hand or another's hand, it is murder. I can live with that contradiction.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6891|USA

Jaekus wrote:

lowing wrote:

Jaekus wrote:

It's a bit rough to incarcerate someone who attempted suicide because they had a stillbirth as a result. Punishing her is not addressing the problem at all.
That would be for a court of law to decide, I can certainly understand the charge however.
It shouldn't go to the courts, it should go to professional help.
well by your angle anyone that commits murder should not end in punishment rather professional help, because you must be crazy to murder someone in the first place.
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5418|Sydney

lowing wrote:

Jaekus wrote:

lowing wrote:


That would be for a court of law to decide, I can certainly understand the charge however.
It shouldn't go to the courts, it should go to professional help.
well by your angle anyone that commits murder should not end in punishment rather professional help, because you must be crazy to murder someone in the first place.
Are you stupid, lack reading comprehension or just plain trolling?
It's a bit rough to incarcerate someone who attempted suicide because they had a stillbirth as a result.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6891|USA

Jaekus wrote:

lowing wrote:

Jaekus wrote:


It shouldn't go to the courts, it should go to professional help.
well by your angle anyone that commits murder should not end in punishment rather professional help, because you must be crazy to murder someone in the first place.
Are you stupid, lack reading comprehension or just plain trolling?
It's a bit rough to incarcerate someone who attempted suicide because they had a stillbirth as a result.
nope, I would assume the trauma she underwent herself during the attempt, put undue stress on the baby. If she wanted to commit suicide by driving head on into another car, survived the crash but killed the occupant in the other car, she is still a murderer. (just replace occupant of other car with, the woman's baby) and you have the argument.
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|7015|Moscow, Russia

lowing wrote:

Shahter wrote:

lowing wrote:

It is already murder and the fetus is recognized as a person under current laws in most states regarding the death of a fetus by assault. A woman gets attacked and the baby dies, the assailant is charged with murder.
oh. that^ and abortion is legal in those states at the same time, right? that sure as hell sounds like a contradiction to me.
I can not disagree with you.

However, the argument would be a woman has a right to choose, if they choose abortion there are legal procedures to accomplish it. Anything less than the legal methods is not abortion. If a woman does not choose the legal method of abortion and the baby dies by her hand or another's hand, it is murder. I can live with that contradiction.
i'm not sure i agree. you know, if you put this issue like that, you'd need to investigate every miscarriage that happens for possible "irresponsible behavior" and "malicious intent". that a LOT of you tax money, man.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5418|Sydney

lowing wrote:

Jaekus wrote:

lowing wrote:


well by your angle anyone that commits murder should not end in punishment rather professional help, because you must be crazy to murder someone in the first place.
Are you stupid, lack reading comprehension or just plain trolling?
It's a bit rough to incarcerate someone who attempted suicide because they had a stillbirth as a result.
nope, I would assume the trauma she underwent herself during the attempt, put undue stress on the baby. If she wanted to commit suicide by driving head on into another car, survived the crash but killed the occupant in the other car, she is still a murderer. (just replace occupant of other car with, the woman's baby) and you have the argument.
That is different because she is in control of a device that kills the other occupant, and even then you could argue for manslaughter. But in either case, euthanasia is illegal whilst abortion is legal, so whilst it is a grey area I would see a suicide attempt that results in stillbirth not being murder. But obviously you see otherwise, agree to disagree.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6891|USA

Shahter wrote:

lowing wrote:

Shahter wrote:

oh. that^ and abortion is legal in those states at the same time, right? that sure as hell sounds like a contradiction to me.
I can not disagree with you.

However, the argument would be a woman has a right to choose, if they choose abortion there are legal procedures to accomplish it. Anything less than the legal methods is not abortion. If a woman does not choose the legal method of abortion and the baby dies by her hand or another's hand, it is murder. I can live with that contradiction.
i'm not sure i agree. you know, if you put this issue like that, you'd need to investigate every miscarriage that happens for possible "irresponsible behavior" and "malicious intent". that a LOT of you tax money, man.
no different than investigating child abuse when one shows up with a broken arm in the emergency room. There are tell tale signs that raise suspicions, such as it is with miscarriages.

Last edited by lowing (2011-06-24 18:28:08)

lowing
Banned
+1,662|6891|USA

Jaekus wrote:

lowing wrote:

Jaekus wrote:

lowing wrote:

well by your angle anyone that commits murder should not end in punishment rather professional help, because you must be crazy to murder someone in the first place.
Are you stupid, lack reading comprehension or just plain trolling?

nope, I would assume the trauma she underwent herself during the attempt, put undue stress on the baby. If she wanted to commit suicide by driving head on into another car, survived the crash but killed the occupant in the other car, she is still a murderer. (just replace occupant of other car with, the woman's baby) and you have the argument.
That is different because she is in control of a device that kills the other occupant, and even then you could argue for manslaughter. But in either case, euthanasia is illegal whilst abortion is legal, so whilst it is a grey area I would see a suicide attempt that results in stillbirth not being murder. But obviously you see otherwise, agree to disagree.
fair enough
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5826

lowing wrote:

Yup I have no problem with charging them. Abortion is legal, but that doesn't mean sticking a coat hanger in your womb to kill the baby is legal. The abortion issue has nothing to do with this law.

reckless and irresponsible behavior that kills a fetus is not an abortion, it is murder under current laws, regardless as to who is being reckless and irresponsible.
I'm impressed by your ability to stay true to your small government staying out of our lives crap.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6346|eXtreme to the maX
The South is sounding more and more like a Christian fundamentalist version of Iran TBH.
Fuck Israel
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6393|what

Gibbs became pregnant aged 15, but lost the baby in December 2006 in a stillbirth when she was 36 weeks into the pregnancy. When prosecutors discovered that she had a cocaine habit – though there is no evidence that drug abuse had anything to do with the baby's death – they charged her with the "depraved-heart murder" of her child, which carries a mandatory life sentence.
It's not unusual for pregnancies at that age to result in stillbirths, for obvious reasons.
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Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6346|eXtreme to the maX
Its not unusual for any pregnancy to miscarry or result in stillbirth, 'depraved heart murder' is bizarre.
Fuck Israel
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6889

The US is crazy sometimes.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6891|USA

Macbeth wrote:

lowing wrote:

Yup I have no problem with charging them. Abortion is legal, but that doesn't mean sticking a coat hanger in your womb to kill the baby is legal. The abortion issue has nothing to do with this law.

reckless and irresponsible behavior that kills a fetus is not an abortion, it is murder under current laws, regardless as to who is being reckless and irresponsible.
I'm impressed by your ability to stay true to your small government staying out of our lives crap.
Actually my opinion is very consistent with my beliefs of small govt. The function of govt. is to protect the rights of others.  I believe you have the right to do whatever you want, as long as it does not interfere with the rights of others. Illegally killing a baby is interfering in the rights of that baby.

Lets turn it a bit. If your wife was pregnant and was attacked and you lost the baby because of it, do you think the assailant should only be charged with assault, and not the murder of your unborn baby?
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6891|USA

AussieReaper wrote:

Gibbs became pregnant aged 15, but lost the baby in December 2006 in a stillbirth when she was 36 weeks into the pregnancy. When prosecutors discovered that she had a cocaine habit – though there is no evidence that drug abuse had anything to do with the baby's death – they charged her with the "depraved-heart murder" of her child, which carries a mandatory life sentence.
It's not unusual for pregnancies at that age to result in stillbirths, for obvious reasons.
Yeah and cocaine I'm sure, does not affect a pregnancy at all.

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