man, its so funny we know exactly where were coming from but honestly man, I feel like I cant talk serious about certain things unless theres a vet on the other end. There so many things you cant describe or be accountable for by using fucking stats. The only people that I have been able to really have productive dialogue with have been military veterans regardless of what branch or mos because there are so many things you dont gotta explain to somebody whos been in uniform.CFD Jarhead wrote:
Oorah GunSlinger OIF II !!!!!! Semper Fi! You tell the "experts." One vet to another, kudos! Funny how some, NOT all, but some think because they read somewhere that something has certain stats it is far better than something else... Or a tactic on a movie is what should or should not be done. Or what they read in the liberal controlled media, even the GOP favoring media too, that it is gospel.... Hmmmmm
-Sgt. USMC 1991-98
Poll
In RealLife The Better Tank is ?
| T72 | 2% | 2% - 9 | ||||
| T80 | 10% | 10% - 35 | ||||
| M1A Abrams | 62% | 62% - 220 | ||||
| others | 24% | 24% - 86 | ||||
| Total: 350 | ||||||
Murphy's lawCFD Jarhead wrote:
Things don't always happen in real life like they do in field or lab tests for defense contractors... Even the best equipment can fail or you can see unexplainable things happen.... When I worked for a defense contractor, we'd spend months/years doing trials to simulate all imaginable scenarios. You can never anticipate/recreate everything. Most likely the shot was a deflection off the helmet by means of riccochet or it was at such an extreme angle. I have seen round go where they shouldn't (i.e. armor and I have seen them stopped by junk in a marines pocket....
A 3 to 5 second fuse....isnt
the fucked up part about that whole incident was Thomas, the guy who got hit was the 240 gunner and some brand new butter bar LT told him to take that position and lay suppressive fire as there were tracers flying all over the spot he was pointing at. Thomas was like" fuck that sir dont you see those bullets flying over there, Ill get hit the second they see me" the lt stood by his guns and thomas dutifully follwed orders and the exact thing that he said was gonna happen, happened. But the good news is that the butter bar got fired and sent to HHC. I think the reason Thomas survived was he was short stalky BUFF ass black dude man, that fucker had tree trunks for arms and a big mouth. Once he got his bearings he looked towards where the shot came he thought and yelled "that nigga fucking shot me". Every body thought his brains would be all over the place, i was scared man I knew this cat since i joined the army in 2000....again great fucking soldier we should all be greatful that we got willie thomas' fighting for our country
DUUUHH THE RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT HAS TONS OF MONEY... and the average Russian is not poor btw. They can heat their homes.2ndLt.Tucker wrote:
Just to be a smart ass here. How the hell could they afford that? I mean seriously. Its russia, they could barely keep their houses heated a few winters ago. How did they get a anti ballistic missile system?
Listen, Im not doubting your combat experience or anything of the sort. I have utmost respect for those serving. Im just saying just because a K-Pot took a 7.62 round once doesnt mean its INTENDED to be able to withstand a 7.62. I cannot say I have had any time over in the sandbox so all the information I got is theory. I said that its no way in hell possible that stopping 7.62 was what a KPOT was INTENDED to do. And Im not understanding your point about the SAPI plates...all I said about them was that they were a piece of equipment that was actually intended to withstand 7.62...but whatever. I dont really want this to turn into a flame fest of any sort.GunSlinger OIF II wrote:
tell that to SGT Willie Thomas of a co 2/7 cav 1st CAV division and everyone else in 1st platoon who was there and saw that. Dont give me your expert opinion based on what ever you think is correct in theory. This happened in Najaf in august of 2004. I was a dismount rifleman ok, you pretty much saying Im lying about my service in iraq. Im above what I really wanna tell you so lets just leave it at this because the fact is I dont care if you or anyone else who reads this believes. You should feel fortunate that you get veterans and military peeps on here to share their life experiences with people like you. My crediblke sources are my own two god damn eyes and the purple heart thomas got for that incident that no way in hell happened. Why does everyone wanna go and call someone a liar and start an argument on....whatever. I gotta keep in mind alot of people who play this game and write these posts are all experts in modern combat, weapons and tactics...and they are still teenagers (in general), amazing. Amazing to see how many experts we have on the things chances are they will never ever use or be lucky to even see. SO yeah ok sources sources whatever man, fine Im full of shit...go ahead reply what you wanna reply man but the more I type this the more I lose interest.
The sapi plate falls apart the second it gets hit. Its ironic that the boxes that carry the SAPI plate insterts for our OTV's say "handle with care, fragile" and these things stop bullets. but whatever man, thats probably NO WAY IN HELL possible either
DURING OIF II the 1st CAVALRY DIVISION DID NOT RECIEVE THE MITCH HELMET UNTIL AFTER JAN OF 2005. AND EVEN THEN IT WAS SLOW TO DISPERSE AMONG INDIVIDUAL UNITS I AS A MATTER OF FACT WAS LUCKY ENOUGH NOT TO GET ISSUED ONE AND I KEPT MY K-POD FAITHFULLY TILL THE DAY I WAS DISCHARGED
captured ordinance
http://myspace-728.vo.llnwd.net/00194/8 … 0728_l.jpg
well in that case yeah you right , the kpod aint meant to deflect rounds but it did in this case. I seen kevlars getorn to peices in training. I seen a kevlar fall inside the turret ring of a bradley ( for anyone out there who knows about brads, that would seem pretty impossible) when we got it out it looked like paper mache
if someone interested - here is the short specification of modernized T-72M4CZ which is made and used in Army of the Czech Republic
* total weight: 48 000 kg
* width: 3 755 mm
* height up to turret: 2 180 mm
* engie maximum power 720 KW
* crew: 3
* range of fire - day: 5000 m, night: 4000 m
* laser range measurement: 240 - 9995 m
* target range detection - day: min 6000 m, night: min 5000 m
* max speed - forward good terrain: 61 km/h, heavy terrain: 44 km/h, backwards: 14 km/h
* main automatic gun 125 mm 2A46M, AA gun 12.7 mm NSVT, coax gun 7.62 mm PKT
* advanced dynamic composite armour
* main ammunition type: 125/EPpSv-97
* weight of 125 mm bullet: 20,3 kg
* muzzle speed of 125 mm bullet: 1650 m/s
* deviation of bullet on range of 2000 m: 36 cm
* payload: 125 mm - 37pcs, 12.7 mm - 720pcs, 7.62 mm - 2000pcs
* total weight: 48 000 kg
* width: 3 755 mm
* height up to turret: 2 180 mm
* engie maximum power 720 KW
* crew: 3
* range of fire - day: 5000 m, night: 4000 m
* laser range measurement: 240 - 9995 m
* target range detection - day: min 6000 m, night: min 5000 m
* max speed - forward good terrain: 61 km/h, heavy terrain: 44 km/h, backwards: 14 km/h
* main automatic gun 125 mm 2A46M, AA gun 12.7 mm NSVT, coax gun 7.62 mm PKT
* advanced dynamic composite armour
* main ammunition type: 125/EPpSv-97
* weight of 125 mm bullet: 20,3 kg
* muzzle speed of 125 mm bullet: 1650 m/s
* deviation of bullet on range of 2000 m: 36 cm
* payload: 125 mm - 37pcs, 12.7 mm - 720pcs, 7.62 mm - 2000pcs
Last edited by Czech (2006-05-16 02:24:26)
God no, not this pointless debate again...
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
word.Spark wrote:
God no, not this pointless debate again...
Agreed, there is nothing harder to do, than defeat an enemy that is protecting his homeland.oberst_enzian wrote:
the most interesting and relevent point in this thread so far. superior technology alone will never win the day. you have to believe in what you're fighting for. all the recent american military successes will never erase the memory of vietnam.BEE_Grim_Reaper wrote:
You might say, that Iraq used T-72 tanks agains US M1A2, but consider this: those tanks where mostly not the modernized variant, they where not properly maintained, the crews where not properly trained and the morale was below the freezing point, metaphorically speaking.
Proof= Korea,Vietnam,Somalia and to some extent Iraq although time will only tell how bad Iraq will really be.
Last edited by Snakestyles (2006-05-16 02:56:04)
Whateva the british use
Couse that system was developed during "Cold War", at witch time USSR was one of the strongest countries on this planet. Btw no country in the world still doesn't posses this system.Drunkaholic wrote:
If Russian technology was 20 years behind, they wouldn't have the only operational anti-ballistic missle defense system and base in the world .Horseman 77 wrote:
Reaper.. You say, that russian technology was 20 years behind?
The F-22 was not supreceded by the JSF, the JSF is the 'econo' plane. The F-22 in all ways is still better than the JSF.Spetz wrote:
lolCRUSHER wrote:
This thread went from tanks to jets... Nice...
Anyway, the F-22 Raptor pwns all..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-22
that jet was superceeded by the JSF or f-35 last year
but you have to face the fact that your country is on the verge of Bankruptcy
the americans had to get the joint investment of britain australia and germany soo they could fund the JointStrikeFighter
china is quickly catching americas economy
Our country is not on the verge of bankruptcy.
We could have funed it ourselves, we got outside help just to keep the cost down. (mind you the program over its lifetime will cost upwards of 500 billion dollars) and our government can pick up almost all of that in a month with taxes. You also missed other countries, Israel is working on it, some arab countries are helping, Greece is, many others. Its not just Britian/Aus/Germany like you say.
China's growth is unsustainable.
In all of those cases it wasn't just protecting their homeland, many of them got outside help, China helped our enemy on Korea and Vietnam. Militarily you can say we won, but politically we didn't.Snakestyles wrote:
Agreed, there is nothing harder to do, than defeat an enemy that is protecting his homeland.oberst_enzian wrote:
the most interesting and relevent point in this thread so far. superior technology alone will never win the day. you have to believe in what you're fighting for. all the recent american military successes will never erase the memory of vietnam.BEE_Grim_Reaper wrote:
You might say, that Iraq used T-72 tanks agains US M1A2, but consider this: those tanks where mostly not the modernized variant, they where not properly maintained, the crews where not properly trained and the morale was below the freezing point, metaphorically speaking.
Proof= Korea,Vietnam,Somalia and to some extent Iraq although time will only tell how bad Iraq will really be.
Same goes for Iraq, most of the people we are fighting aren't even Iraqis becuase a recent document found in Iraq by a terrorist member mentions having a hard time recruiting Iraqis for the 'mission'. Obviously to me they aren't "protecting their homeland" if they don't want to fight us. http://www.mnf-iraq.com/feature/May/060509a.htm
Bankcrutcy, you know USA has a giant dept, if all other countries wouldn't put money in the USA you couldn't build the JSF, but well even The Netherlands has much money in that JSF programRandom-Hero58 wrote:
The F-22 was not supreceded by the JSF, the JSF is the 'econo' plane. The F-22 in all ways is still better than the JSF.Spetz wrote:
lolCRUSHER wrote:
This thread went from tanks to jets... Nice...
Anyway, the F-22 Raptor pwns all..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-22
that jet was superceeded by the JSF or f-35 last year
but you have to face the fact that your country is on the verge of Bankruptcy
the americans had to get the joint investment of britain australia and germany soo they could fund the JointStrikeFighter
china is quickly catching americas economy
Our country is not on the verge of bankruptcy.
We could have funed it ourselves, we got outside help just to keep the cost down. (mind you the program over its lifetime will cost upwards of 500 billion dollars) and our government can pick up almost all of that in a month with taxes. You also missed other countries, Israel is working on it, some arab countries are helping, Greece is, many others. Its not just Britian/Aus/Germany like you say.
China's growth is unsustainable.
Bah.
Vietnam & Somalia are instances of government restraint. In both cases the military was capable of entirely destroying the enemy, but there would have been massive civilian casualties too, and the gov't didn't want the public relations hit. Somalia in particular: 3 OCT 93, Mogadishu: 18 Americans dead. Red cross estimates of enemy dead were over 600. Sorry, but people don't fight harder than the opposition just because they are at home...if you die overseas, you are still dead.Snakestyles wrote:
Agreed, there is nothing harder to do, than defeat an enemy that is protecting his homeland.
Proof= Korea,Vietnam,Somalia and to some extent Iraq although time will only tell how bad Iraq will really be.
Simply not true. We have been deficit spending in this country for decades...why should it be different now? 500 billion over several years is entirely possible. We have spent over $300 billion in Iraq, and another $200 billion on hurricane Katrina relief...theres $500 billion pulled out of the air. Yeah, we will all pay higher taxes eventually because of it, but if you think it can't be done, you don't understand government economics. YOUR country might not be capable of it, but make no mistakes, the US is 1/5th of the world economy all by itself. We can do it.^*AlphA*^ wrote:
Bankcrutcy, you know USA has a giant dept, if all other countries wouldn't put money in the USA you couldn't build the JSF, but well even The Netherlands has much money in that JSF program
Last edited by whittsend (2006-05-16 06:50:57)
" T-72 and T-80 tank is superior to the M1A2 in many things "
Except a fight. Roflmao ! Thread should END HERE !!!
Except a fight. Roflmao ! Thread should END HERE !!!
Not even, in the Gulf War, the USA lost only four tanks. Those tanks were lost due to mechanical problems with stalled engines, sand in the the engine, stuff like that. So after the US destroyed the 1000 or so T-72's they moved on. Remember that the push to Baghdad was very quick.silentsin wrote:
from what i hear, the M1A2 Abrams owns any other tank. in the gulf war M1A2s kicked the shit out of those T-72s. i believe the ratio was about 20 T-72s per one M1A2 Abrams. thats a fucking ratio for you.
Why can't this thread just die and stay dead?cyborg_ninja-117 wrote:
word.Spark wrote:
God no, not this pointless debate again...
Challenger II FTW
Actually in the NATO trials the German Lepard 2 came out on top with the British Challenger 2 the runner up....the M1 came third
Actually it all boils down to the ammunition used ...depleted uranium cuts through everything like butter!
Even the T90 with it explosive reactive armour is easily defeated ...for instance the Milan system fires a K120 rocket witch has a double warhead...the first defeats the ERA the second does its job
Actually it all boils down to the ammunition used ...depleted uranium cuts through everything like butter!
Even the T90 with it explosive reactive armour is easily defeated ...for instance the Milan system fires a K120 rocket witch has a double warhead...the first defeats the ERA the second does its job
Last edited by joker3327 (2006-05-16 07:41:14)
Why people discasing plaines on the thread that is dedicated to tanks? Read name of this thread, it says "T-72 and T-80 tank is superior to the M1A2 in many things..."
Both suck against choper , end of a thread .
Challenger 2 owns all, it is the best protected tank in NATO with its second-generation Chobham armour and a 120mm rifled tank gun. In operation desert storm it is estimated that our british challengers took out 300 iraqi tanks without one lost.