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2011-05-29 23:36:45
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5439|Sydney
What question was that? It can't have been important if you've only brought it to my attention now.

I've already answered why it is premeditated numerous times. Lying in wait for a week has nothing to do with it, it's ridiculous as it does not apply in this situation yet you seem to use this shaky angle because it's the best you can do, and you're too stubborn to admit you are wrong.

Oh well, no skin off my nose.

Also, how do you know he was full of emotion? His actions of walking, getting a gun, walking, lean down, shooting is all pretty calculated. It wasn't like he just started firing bullets and screaming. His manner and actions betray his intent.

Last edited by Jaekus (2011-05-29 23:42:52)

2011-05-29 23:52:40
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6912|USA

Jaekus wrote:

What question was that? It can't have been important if you've only brought it to my attention now.

I've already answered why it is premeditated numerous times. Lying in wait for a week has nothing to do with it, it's ridiculous as it does not apply in this situation yet you seem to use this shaky angle because it's the best you can do, and you're too stubborn to admit you are wrong.

Oh well, no skin off my nose.

Also, how do you know he was full of emotion? His actions of walking, getting a gun, walking, lean down, shooting is all pretty calculated. It wasn't like he just started firing bullets and screaming. His manner and actions betray his intent.
Ok last time.

I asked you if you saw a difference between a guy going out into the desert and digging a hole as part of his plan to kill her and dispose of the body, and the pharmacist that had no prior knowledge of what the day had in store for him. You said you did know the difference. I asked what that difference was, and you have yet to answer it. So now, answer the question with clarity.



How couldn't he be full of emotion? He was just threatened with death, the fact that this otherwise unassuming man would get the second gun would pretty much assure us that yeah, there might have been some emotion at play here.

Last edited by lowing (2011-05-29 23:55:23)

2011-05-29 23:53:14
-Sh1fty-
plundering yee booty
+510|5734|Ventura, California
I know my opinion isn't highly regarded, if at all, but I do agree with Jeakus here. His points are all spot-on.
And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.
2011-05-29 23:54:46
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5439|Sydney
I'm not going to answer a loaded question that is clearly a ridiculous comparison between two completely different scenarios.

What you have yet to do, other than ask loaded questions, is nothing, except display a lack of comprehension of what premeditated murder is.

Why don't you explain how this is not premeditated murder, and then we'll be getting somewhere with this discussion.
2011-05-30 00:07:10
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6912|USA

Jaekus wrote:

I'm not going to answer a loaded question that is clearly a ridiculous comparison between two completely different scenarios.

What you have yet to do, other than ask loaded questions, is nothing, except display a lack of comprehension of what premeditated murder is.

Why don't you explain how this is not premeditated murder, and then we'll be getting somewhere with this discussion.
I didn't load any question. I gave full disclosure as to each scenario and you told me you knew what the difference was in each. I simply am asking, in your mind, what the difference is.


It is not premeditated murder because the guy had no forethought to the days events, he had no scheme he was trying to carry out. He had no escape plan for disposing the bodies and saving him self from incrimination, he had no malice toward the criminals before hand. He had no gains at the death of this criminal. All are factor in premeditation. 

He was a pharmacist going through his daily routine when that routine was disrupted by criminal behavior. It was then that he was thrown off track from his normalcy. It was not planned or thought out, he was scared, pissed off and frustrated. He was full of emotion, no different from a guy that walks in on his wife in bed with another person "walks gets a gun and walks again"..
2011-05-30 00:29:37
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5439|Sydney
I see you aren't comprehending what is premeditated murder, other than in extreme and obvious cases.

Let's have a look, shall we?

Premeditated murder is the crime of wrongfully causing the death of another human being (also known as murder) after rationally considering the timing or method of doing so, in order to either increase the likelihood of success, or to evade detection or apprehension.[1] State laws in the United States vary as to definitions of "premeditation." In some states, premeditation may be construed as taking place mere seconds before the murder.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premeditated_murder

Let's look at the relevant points in bold, with a few italics and underscores for emphasis:

Premeditated murder is the crime of wrongfully causing the death of another human being (also known as murder) after rationally considering the timing or method of doing so, in order to either increase the likelihood of success, or to evade detection or apprehension.[1] State laws in the United States vary as to definitions of "premeditation." In some states, premeditation may be construed as taking place mere seconds before the murder.
Here are the facts:
  • He wrongfully caused the death of the kid.
  • He considered the method of doing so, by getting a second gun.
  • He increased the likelihood of success by shooting the kid multiple times.
  • "Premeditation may be construed as taking place mere seconds before the murder" - Clearly this all happened prior to the kid's death.

The facts speak for themselves. It is premeditated murder.

It does not matter what emotion he felt at the time, nor afterwards, it does not absolve his guilt. It may however affect what sentence he receives (anger at the time, remorse afterwards) and he could receive a lesser sentence. For all intents and purposes though, it is premeditated murder.

In your scenario with the guy finding his wife in bed with another man, it is also premeditated. I'm sure you can fill in the blanks and see why.
2011-05-30 00:49:34
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6912|USA

Jaekus wrote:

I see you aren't comprehending what is premeditated murder, other than in extreme and obvious cases.

Let's have a look, shall we?

Premeditated murder is the crime of wrongfully causing the death of another human being (also known as murder) after rationally considering the timing or method of doing so, in order to either increase the likelihood of success, or to evade detection or apprehension.[1] State laws in the United States vary as to definitions of "premeditation." In some states, premeditation may be construed as taking place mere seconds before the murder.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premeditated_murder

Let's look at the relevant points in bold, with a few italics and underscores for emphasis:

Premeditated murder is the crime of wrongfully causing the death of another human being (also known as murder) after rationally considering the timing or method of doing so, in order to either increase the likelihood of success, or to evade detection or apprehension.[1] State laws in the United States vary as to definitions of "premeditation." In some states, premeditation may be construed as taking place mere seconds before the murder.
Here are the facts:
  • He wrongfully caused the death of the kid.
  • He considered the method of doing so, by getting a second gun.
  • He increased the likelihood of success by shooting the kid multiple times.
  • "Premeditation may be construed as taking place mere seconds before the murder" - Clearly this all happened prior to the kid's death.

The facts speak for themselves. It is premeditated murder.

It does not matter what emotion he felt at the time, nor afterwards, it does not absolve his guilt. It may however affect what sentence he receives (anger at the time, remorse afterwards) and he could receive a lesser sentence. For all intents and purposes though, it is premeditated murder.

In your scenario with the guy finding his wife in bed with another man, it is also premeditated. I'm sure you can fill in the blanks and see why.
http://criminal-law.freeadvice.com/viol … murder.htm
First-degree murder is the most serious form of murder. In most states, it is categorized as "deliberate" - that is, the defendant made a clear-headed decision to kill the victim; "premeditated" - the defendant actually thought about the killing before it occurred (the period for this can be very brief); and "with malice"- doing a harmful act without just cause or legal excuse. So if someone decides to kill a business rival who is attempting a corporate takeover, gets a gun, waits for the victim in a deserted parking garage, and shoots him, that killing would have all the elements of first-degree murder. If, on the other hand, the competitors get in a fight when the rival announces his intentions to take over the other man's business, and the second man picks up something and hits the rival with it, causing his death, that is not likely to be first-degree murder. The killer did not plan or make a decision to kill in advance.

Some states consider killings committed in specific way to be first-degree murder. Although these vary by state, they can include killing by poison, by lying in wait, and by torture. States may also presume malice if the killing is done with a deadly weapon.

Second-degree murder is killing another with malice - doing a harmful act without just cause or legal excuse - but without premeditation or deliberation. In other words, this means intentionally killing someone without planning to do so in advance. So, if a person becomes angry, walks over to a desk where he keeps a legal weapon for defense, takes out the gun and shoots the other, that may be second-degree murder. There was no plan or advance decision to kill, but the act of taking out the gun and shooting was intentional.


I now challenge you to find any example of first degree murder that fits the scenario in the OP.
2011-05-30 00:57:03
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5439|Sydney
I've been over this before, but again some people don't seem to be paying attention...

If he had used the gun he shot the first bullet with, second degree at most, and only if he shot the kid when walking back into the store.
Because he went and got another gun, this betrays his intention, and therefore it is premeditated.

First-degree murder is the most serious form of murder. In most states, it is categorized as "deliberate" - that is, the defendant made a clear-headed decision to kill the victim; "premeditated"
He got a second gun. That was a decision that was clear headed. If it was irrational he would have used the gun he already held.
the defendant actually thought about the killing before it occurred (the period for this can be very brief); and "with malice"- doing a harmful act without just cause or legal excuse.
He got the gun, walked over to where the now defenceless kid is still on the ground (it can no longer be self defence as the kid was still on the ground and he has passed by him twice to prove this point - the CCTV footage would show otherwise, if it were the case) and he leant down and shot him multiple times - betraying malicious intent.

So basically, you've confirmed my argument.

Nice work.
2011-05-30 01:05:14
ROGUEDD
BF2s. A Liberal Gang of Faggots.
+452|5650|Fuck this.
ITT lowing arguing for some jackass murderer because he shot a punk kid.

GG D&ST.

Last edited by ROGUEDD (2011-05-30 01:05:31)

Make X-meds a full member, for the sake of 15 year old anal gangbang porn watchers everywhere!
2011-05-30 01:14:19
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6912|USA

Jaekus wrote:

I've been over this before, but again some people don't seem to be paying attention...

If he had used the gun he shot the first bullet with, second degree at most, and only if he shot the kid when walking back into the store.
Because he went and got another gun, this betrays his intention, and therefore it is premeditated.

First-degree murder is the most serious form of murder. In most states, it is categorized as "deliberate" - that is, the defendant made a clear-headed decision to kill the victim; "premeditated"
He got a second gun. That was a decision that was clear headed. If it was irrational he would have used the gun he already held.
the defendant actually thought about the killing before it occurred (the period for this can be very brief); and "with malice"- doing a harmful act without just cause or legal excuse.
He got the gun, walked over to where the now defenceless kid is still on the ground (it can no longer be self defence as the kid was still on the ground and he has passed by him twice to prove this point - the CCTV footage would show otherwise, if it were the case) and he leant down and shot him multiple times - betraying malicious intent.

So basically, you've confirmed my argument.

Nice work.
Ummmm the example listed under the second degree murder charge fits the scenario EXACTLY. The example under the first degree murder charge does not. Now go find an example of first degree murder that fits the scenario. Like I did for my argument, and I will concede. JUST one example. Hell, go find an example of a first degree murder charge for killing a wife and her lover in bed together, since you claim that is first degree murder as well, and I will concede.

Last edited by lowing (2011-05-30 01:53:05)

2011-05-30 02:17:42
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5439|Sydney
No, it does not fit exactly. You're glossing over some important facts, ones I've mentioned time and time again.

If you want an example, just look at the OP. The guy we are talking about was convicted of first degree murder. Another fact you're glossing over. Seems to be your angle on the forums: don't like the facts, don't bother mentioning them. Makes your arguments sketchy though.

I'll wait for your concession now.
2011-05-30 02:24:56
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6912|USA

Jaekus wrote:

No, it does not fit exactly. You're glossing over some important facts, ones I've mentioned time and time again.

If you want an example, just look at the OP. The guy we are talking about was convicted of first degree murder. Another fact you're glossing over. Seems to be your angle on the forums: don't like the facts, don't bother mentioning them. Makes your arguments sketchy though.

I'll wait for your concession now.
I have an argument, I have provided reasoning for my argument and gave examples to support it. All I ask of you is to do the same thing.  Now since you claim that a cheating wife being killed in bed with her lover by her husband is a prime example of first degree murder, then cite a case. Should be easy to choose from since it is not exactly a rarity.  If you can give an example of a first degree murder charge that fits the scenario in the OP then cite an example. Using the OP as your example is lame ass since it is the one in question, but it would appear you have little choice.


Give me one example of first degree murder in the description of first degree murder, that fits the OP and you have my concession.

Last edited by lowing (2011-05-30 02:27:24)

2011-05-30 03:34:35
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5439|Sydney
Why? I'm not playing your little games, lowing.

Discuss the topic at hand, if you can.
2011-05-30 06:07:15
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6367|eXtreme to the maX

lowing wrote:

Jaekus wrote:

No, it does not fit exactly. You're glossing over some important facts, ones I've mentioned time and time again.

If you want an example, just look at the OP. The guy we are talking about was convicted of first degree murder. Another fact you're glossing over. Seems to be your angle on the forums: don't like the facts, don't bother mentioning them. Makes your arguments sketchy though.

I'll wait for your concession now.
I have an argument, I have provided reasoning for my argument and gave examples to support it. All I ask of you is to do the same thing.  Now since you claim that a cheating wife being killed in bed with her lover by her husband is a prime example of first degree murder, then cite a case. Should be easy to choose from since it is not exactly a rarity.  If you can give an example of a first degree murder charge that fits the scenario in the OP then cite an example. Using the OP as your example is lame ass since it is the one in question, but it would appear you have little choice.


Give me one example of first degree murder in the description of first degree murder, that fits the OP and you have my concession.
Thing is, courts don't work like Judge Judy. They go on legal definitions, if the definition fits thats the end of it, not what happened last week on Cops, not what a jury found in another case.
It goes according to the definition of the law and the jury uses whats written down and/or explained to them by the Judge and the lawyers.
They don't weigh up what happened in the adjacent court last week, last month or last year.

Someone give me a call in another 10 pages or so.
Fuck Israel
2011-05-30 15:35:57
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6912|USA

Jaekus wrote:

Why? I'm not playing your little games, lowing.

Discuss the topic at hand, if you can.
I am, the topic is classifications of murder. You claim a person that comes home early and catches his wife in bed with another man  and kills them both, is the same classification as a guy that schemed to kill his wife, cover it up and escape to Mexico....I showed you where they were not the same. Yet you insist they are, so back it up. Oh and again, since it is the OP we are discussing, try to find something else. Obviously you can not, because if you could have you would have done so, instead of dismissing me and my argument as nothing more than little games you don't have time for. That is a bitch move if there ever was one.
2011-05-30 19:32:04
-Whiteroom-
Pineapplewhat
+572|6920|BC, Canada
nvm... don't want to.

Last edited by Nic (2011-05-30 19:38:49)

2011-05-30 20:28:54
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6936|Canberra, AUS
Lowing I have no idea what you're doing here. The definitions are right there and they're pretty obvious. I can see why people would not want to argue with you when you constantly ignore the definitions.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2011-05-30 20:30:25
13urnzz
Banned
+5,830|6758

Spark wrote:

Lowing I have no idea what you're doing here. The definitions are right there and they're pretty obvious. I can see why people would not want to argue with you when you constantly ignore the definitions.
it's his idea of "fun", and the reason i wouldn't give him the time of day.
2011-05-30 20:40:14
tuckergustav
...
+1,590|6174|...

According to the following definitions(which have been very simplified) and examples I think 2nd Degree fits best...

Interesting to know that the kid who got away could be charged with 1st Degree murder. hmm

In most states, first-degree murder is defined as an unlawful killing that is both willful and premeditated, meaning that it was committed after planning or "lying in wait" for the victim.

For example, Dan comes home to find his wife in bed with Victor. Three days later, Dan waits behind a tree near Victor's front door. When Victor comes out of the house, Dan shoots and kills him.

Most states also adhere to a legal concept known as the "felony murder rule," under which a person commits first-degree murder if any death (even an accidental one) results from the commission of certain violent felonies -- usually arson, burglary, kidnapping, rape, and robbery.

For example, Dan and Connie rob Victor's liquor store, but as they are fleeing, Victor shoots and kills Dan. Under the felony murder rule, Connie can be charged with first-degree murder for Dan's death.
http://criminal.findlaw.com/crimes/a-z/ … egree.html

Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion" or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life. Second-degree murder may best be viewed as the middle ground between first-degree murder and voluntary manslaughter.

For example, Dan comes home to find his wife in bed with Victor. At a stoplight the next day, Dan sees Victor riding in the passenger seat of a nearby car. Dan pulls out a gun and fires three shots into the car, missing Victor but killing the driver of the car.
http://criminal.findlaw.com/crimes/a-z/ … egree.html

Voluntary manslaughter is commonly defined as an intentional killing in which the offender had no prior intent to kill, such as a killing that occurs in the "heat of passion." The circumstances leading to the killing must be the kind that would cause a reasonable person to become emotionally or mentally disturbed; otherwise, the killing may be charged as a first-degree or second-degree murder.

For example, Dan comes home to find his wife in bed with Victor. In the heat of the moment, Dan picks up a golf club from next to the bed and strikes Victor in the head, killing him instantly.
http://criminal.findlaw.com/crimes/a-z/ … ntary.html
...
2011-05-30 20:45:01
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6936|Canberra, AUS
The thing is though this falls under the legal definition of "premeditation". He had enough foresight to change his gun. He resolved in his mind to murder this guy. He had ample time to change his mind.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2011-05-30 21:27:04
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5439|Sydney

lowing wrote:

Jaekus wrote:

Why? I'm not playing your little games, lowing.

Discuss the topic at hand, if you can.
I am, the topic is classifications of murder. You claim a person that comes home early and catches his wife in bed with another man  and kills them both, is the same classification as a guy that schemed to kill his wife, cover it up and escape to Mexico....I showed you where they were not the same. Yet you insist they are, so back it up. Oh and again, since it is the OP we are discussing, try to find something else. Obviously you can not, because if you could have you would have done so, instead of dismissing me and my argument as nothing more than little games you don't have time for.
Actually the topic is this specific case. See the title?
You are throwing around examples that have nothing to do with this case as some foundation of a pseudo argument and then complain when no one joins in your solo, hypothetical game. If you can't argue this case, start another thread about what it is you want to discuss.

BTW if this were a court of law your arguments as they currently stand would be laughed out of court, and the defendant would sack you as a lawyer. It's just silly.

That is a bitch move if there ever was one.
Well, when you carry on like one...

Last edited by Jaekus (2011-05-30 22:03:08)

2011-05-30 21:46:17
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|6942|Disaster Free Zone

tuckergustav wrote:

According to the following definitions(which have been very simplified) and examples I think 2nd Degree fits best...

Interesting to know that the kid who got away could be charged with 1st Degree murder. hmm

In most states, first-degree murder is defined as an unlawful killing that is both willful and premeditated, meaning that it was committed after planning or "lying in wait" for the victim.

For example, Dan comes home to find his wife in bed with Victor. Three days later, Dan waits behind a tree near Victor's front door. When Victor comes out of the house, Dan shoots and kills him.

Most states also adhere to a legal concept known as the "felony murder rule," under which a person commits first-degree murder if any death (even an accidental one) results from the commission of certain violent felonies -- usually arson, burglary, kidnapping, rape, and robbery.

For example, Dan and Connie rob Victor's liquor store, but as they are fleeing, Victor shoots and kills Dan. Under the felony murder rule, Connie can be charged with first-degree murder for Dan's death.
http://criminal.findlaw.com/crimes/a-z/ … egree.html

Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion" or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life. Second-degree murder may best be viewed as the middle ground between first-degree murder and voluntary manslaughter.

For example, Dan comes home to find his wife in bed with Victor. At a stoplight the next day, Dan sees Victor riding in the passenger seat of a nearby car. Dan pulls out a gun and fires three shots into the car, missing Victor but killing the driver of the car.
http://criminal.findlaw.com/crimes/a-z/ … egree.html

Voluntary manslaughter is commonly defined as an intentional killing in which the offender had no prior intent to kill, such as a killing that occurs in the "heat of passion." The circumstances leading to the killing must be the kind that would cause a reasonable person to become emotionally or mentally disturbed; otherwise, the killing may be charged as a first-degree or second-degree murder.

For example, Dan comes home to find his wife in bed with Victor. In the heat of the moment, Dan picks up a golf club from next to the bed and strikes Victor in the head, killing him instantly.
http://criminal.findlaw.com/crimes/a-z/ … ntary.html
No, specifically read the example, it does not fit at all with this case.

Here's 3 example which should clearly show the differences.
You're driving your car in sound state of mind legally, you are momentarily distracted and run down a pedestrian - Manslaughter.
You're driving your car while intoxicated, loss control of your car as a result and run down a pedestrian - Murder 2
You're driving your car and someone throws an egg at you, you get angry turn your car towards that person and run them down - Murder 1

This case clearly fits with scenario 3.
2011-05-30 21:59:25
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5520|foggy bottom
everybodys a legal expert
Tu Stultus Es
2011-05-30 22:00:09
13/f/taiwan
Member
+940|5960

eleven bravo wrote:

everybodys a legal expert
2011-05-30 22:21:06
tuckergustav
...
+1,590|6174|...

I guess this must be what it's like to be on a jury.  Sounds fun...

...

Topic closed

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