Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5617|London, England
ONE of the most enduring myths about feminism is that 50 years ago women who stayed home full time with their children enjoyed higher social status and more satisfying lives than they do today. All this changed, the story goes, when Betty Friedan published her 1963 best seller, “The Feminine Mystique,” which denigrated stay-at-home mothers. Ever since, their standing in society has steadily diminished.

That myth — repeated in Suzanne Venker and Phyllis Schlafly’s new book, “The Flipside of Feminism” — reflects a misreading of American history. There was indeed a time when full-time mothers were held in great esteem. But it was not the 1950s or early 1960s. It was 150 years ago. In the 19th century, women had even fewer rights than in the 1950s, but society at least put them on a pedestal, and popular culture was filled with paeans to their self-sacrifice and virtue.

When you compare the diaries and letters of 19th-century women with those of women in the 1950s and early 1960s, you can see the greater confidence of the earlier mothers about their value to society. Many felt they occupied a “nobler sphere” than men’s “bank-note” world.

The wife of the novelist Nathaniel Hawthorne, Sophia, told her mother that she did not share her concerns about improving the rights of women, because wives already exerted “a power which no king or conqueror can cope with.” Americans of the era believed in “the empire of the mother,” and grown sons were not embarrassed about rhapsodizing over their “darling mama,” carrying her picture with them to work or war.

In the early 20th century, under the influence of Freudianism, Americans began to view public avowals of “Mother Love” as unmanly and redefine what used to be called “uplifting encouragement” as nagging. By the 1940s, educators, psychiatrists and popular opinion-makers were assailing the idealization of mothers; in their view, women should stop seeing themselves as guardians of societal and familial morality and content themselves with being, in the self-deprecating words of so many 1960s homemakers, “just a housewife.”

Stay-at-home mothers were often portrayed as an even bigger menace to society than career women. In 1942, in his best-selling “Generation of Vipers,” Philip Wylie coined the term “momism” to describe what he claimed was an epidemic of mothers who kept their sons tied to their apron strings, boasted incessantly of their worth and demanded that politicians heed their moralizing.

Momism became seen as a threat to the moral fiber of America on a par with communism. In 1945, the psychiatrist Edward Strecher argued that the 2.5 million men rejected or discharged from the Army as unfit during World War II were the product of overly protective mothers.

In the same year, an information education officer in the Army Air Forces conjectured that the insidious dependency of the American man on “ ‘Mom’ and her pies” had “killed as many men as a thousand German machine guns.” According to the 1947 best seller “Modern Woman: The Lost Sex,” two-thirds of Americans were neurotic, most of them made so by their mothers.

Typical of the invective against homemakers in the 1950s and 1960s was a 1957 best seller, “The Crack in the Picture Window,” which described suburban America as a “matriarchal society,” with the average husband “a woman-bossed, inadequate, money-terrified neuter” and the average wife a “nagging slob.” Anti-mom rhetoric was so pervasive that even Friedan recycled some of this ideology in “The Feminine Mystique” — including the repellent and now-discredited notion that overly devoted mothers turned their sons into homosexuals.

For their part, stay-at-home mothers complained of constant exhaustion. According to the most reliable study of all data available in the 1960s, full-time homemakers spent 55 hours a week on domestic chores, much more than they do today. Women with young children averaged even longer workweeks than that, and almost every woman I’ve interviewed who raised children in that era recalled that she rarely got any help from her husband, even on weekends.

In the 1946 edition of his perennial best seller, “Baby and Child Care,” Dr. Benjamin Spock suggested that Dad might “occasionally” change a diaper, give the baby a bottle or even “make the formula on Sunday.” But a leading sociologist of the day warned that a helpful father might be suspected of “having a little too much fat on the inner thigh.”

Not surprisingly, these social norms led to widespread feelings of inadequacy and depression among stay-at-home mothers. “The female doesn’t really expect a lot from life,” a mother told pollsters from Gallup in a survey in 1962. “She’s here as someone’s keeper — her husband’s or her children’s.”

Study after study found that homemakers had lower self-esteem than women who took paid employment, even when it came to assessing their skills as parents. They experienced higher levels of stress and greater vulnerability to depression than women with paying jobs. And they had few legal rights: wives had little protection against abusive husbands, and only eight states in 1963 gave a homemaker any claim on her husband’s earnings.

Contrary to myth, “The Feminine Mystique” and feminism did not represent the beginning of the decline of the stay-at-home mother, but a turning point that led to much stronger legal rights and “working conditions” for her.

Domestic violence rates have fallen sharply for all wives, employed or not. As late as 1980, approximately 30 percent of wives said their husbands did no housework at all. By 2000, only 16 percent of wives made that statement and almost one-third said their husbands did half of all housework, child care or both.

Most researchers agree that these changes were spurred by the entry of wives and mothers into the work force. But full-time homemakers have especially benefited from them.

From 1975 to 1998 men married to full-time homemakers increased their contributions to housework as much, proportionally, as men whose wives were employed. And from 1965 to 1995, homemakers decreased their own housework hours more than did wives in dual-earner families. As a result, most stay-at-home mothers now have shorter total workweeks than their husbands.

There also seems to have been a significant shift in the relationship between depression and homemaking. Stay-at-home mothers still recount more feelings of loneliness than working mothers. But in a new Council on Contemporary Families briefing paper, the sociologists Margaret Usdansky and Rachel A. Gordon report that among mothers of young children, those who were not working and preferred not to have a job had a relatively low risk of depression — about as low as mothers who chose to work and were able to attain high-quality jobs.

Mothers who want to work outside the home but instead are full-time homemakers, however, have a higher risk of depression.  This is a significant group: in 2000, 40 percent of full-time homemakers said they would prefer to be working at a paid job. So telling women who want to work that they or their children will be better off if they stay home is a mistake. Maternal depression is well known as being harmful to children’s development.

These findings suggest that it is time to stop arguing over who has things worse or who does things better, stay-at-home mothers or employed mothers. Instead, we should pay attention to women’s preferences and options.

Feminism has also fostered increased respect for men’s ability and desire to be involved parents. So we should also pay attention to expanding men’s ability to choose greater involvement in family life, just as we have expanded women’s ability to choose greater involvement in meaningful work.

While stay-at-home mothers may not have the aura of saintliness with which they were endowed in the 19th century, it’s indisputable that their status and lives have improved since their supposed heyday in the 1950s. On this Mother’s Day, it’s too bad that nostalgia for a golden age of motherhood that never existed still clouds our thinking about what’s best for mothers, fathers and their children.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/08/opini … p;src=tptw

I've had this conversation in passing with at least one member of this forum. He believed that we were better off in the Leave it to Beaver stylized world that he envisions the 1950s to have been. Guess he chooses to ignore the large percentage of mothers that were alcoholics or drug addicts because of boredom and depression.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5518|foggy bottom
people who want to go back to 1954 are just pining for the days of segregation when minorities supposedly knew their place in society
Tu Stultus Es
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5496|Cleveland, Ohio
good times
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5617|London, England

eleven bravo wrote:

people who want to go back to 1954 are just pining for the days of segregation when minorities supposedly knew their place in society
That's part of it too I'm sure. Anything that would bring about a return of automatic respect and advantage via birth to those too lazy to earn respect the old fashioned way.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|7030|PNW

1950? Do not want.

Overprotective mothers though, not just mothers with a bit of common sense, can be harmful to a child's development and turn them into depressed shut-ins.
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5844

I hate reading feminist writing I really do. Since someone has already made the point better than I could hope to (or bother) I'll quote Christina Hoff Sommers : "Feminism is no longer about making women men's equals but instead obtaining preferential treatment" or something like that, it's been a while. Combine that with the "always responding to criticism with the 'women are victims' card" and I ended completely turned off to any feminist writer/academic.

If you think I'm overreacting just look at the wiki page for feminism. There isn't a section re: criticism of the feminist movements linking to an larger article of Crisitism of Feminism but the closest thing to that is a small section with a link titled anti-feminism. Seriously?

I agree with the "being a housewife blows" thing though.
13urnzz
Banned
+5,830|6756

Last edited by burnzz (2011-05-09 17:05:18)

11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5496|Cleveland, Ohio
lels
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6704|The Land of Scott Walker
Feminism has also fostered increased respect for men’s ability and desire to be involved parents.
Riiiiiiiiight
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5617|London, England

Stingray24 wrote:

Feminism has also fostered increased respect for men’s ability and desire to be involved parents.
Riiiiiiiiight
Barefoot and pregnant amirite?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6729
the 1950's and early 1960's were a good time for reformist left-leaning politics in america and that's about it

the rest of it was a solipstiic timebomb of capitalist-consumerist misery
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5617|London, England

Uzique wrote:

the 1950's and early 1960's were a good time for reformist left-leaning politics in america and that's about it

the rest of it was a solipstiic timebomb of capitalist-consumerist misery
You need a beret, a French accent, and railroad tracks.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6704|The Land of Scott Walker

Jay wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

Feminism has also fostered increased respect for men’s ability and desire to be involved parents.
Riiiiiiiiight
Barefoot and pregnant amirite?
Totally missed my point there, Jay.  Feminism has not fostered increased respect for anything regarding men.

As to your question, sure, if she wants to be.  If not, then have a career.  7 yrs ago my wife quit her job at the biochemistry department of our local university to stay home with our children.  Is she happier?  Guess you'd have to ask her to know for sure.  She's her own boss throughout the day and gets to set her own schedule as she pleases.  Sounds better than the deal I have at work tbh.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5617|London, England

Stingray24 wrote:

Jay wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:


Riiiiiiiiight
Barefoot and pregnant amirite?
Totally missed my point there, Jay.  Feminism has not fostered increased respect for anything regarding men.

As to your question, sure, if she wants to be.  If not, then have a career.  7 yrs ago my wife quit her job at the biochemistry department of our local university to stay home with our children.  Is she happier?  Guess you'd have to ask her to know for sure.  She's her own boss throughout the day and gets to set her own schedule as she pleases.  Sounds better than the deal I have at work tbh.
Have you studied anything related to feminism or do you think of it simply as angry man-hating-women who burn their bras? It's about women's empowerment and the fact that they should be treated as equals. Nothing wrong with that.

In this regard, the article is entirely correct. Kids were previously left to women to raise while the men went off to work. Some men actually want to spend time with their kids so this dynamic was just as detrimental to what they wanted as it was to the women forced into the role. The societal dynamic was pigeonholing people into predefined roles based on their sex. Surely you can see how that lack of freedom is a bad thing, no?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5437|Sydney

Jay wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

Jay wrote:


Barefoot and pregnant amirite?
Totally missed my point there, Jay.  Feminism has not fostered increased respect for anything regarding men.

As to your question, sure, if she wants to be.  If not, then have a career.  7 yrs ago my wife quit her job at the biochemistry department of our local university to stay home with our children.  Is she happier?  Guess you'd have to ask her to know for sure.  She's her own boss throughout the day and gets to set her own schedule as she pleases.  Sounds better than the deal I have at work tbh.
Have you studied anything related to feminism or do you think of it simply as angry man-hating-women who burn their bras? It's about women's empowerment and the fact that they should be treated as equals. Nothing wrong with that.

In this regard, the article is entirely correct. Kids were previously left to women to raise while the men went off to work. Some men actually want to spend time with their kids so this dynamic was just as detrimental to what they wanted as it was to the women forced into the role. The societal dynamic was pigeonholing people into predefined roles based on their sex. Surely you can see how that lack of freedom is a bad thing, no?
It seems like in the 50s the gender stereotypes were so entrenched in society that to be different as a couple would be frowned upon by your friends and neighbours. I guess the social pressures of conformity had to have its bubble burst eventually, hence the social revolution of the 60s.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5617|London, England

Jaekus wrote:

It seems like in the 50s the gender stereotypes were so entrenched in society that to be different as a couple would be frowned upon by your friends and neighbours. I guess the social pressures of conformity had to have its bubble burst eventually, hence the social revolution of the 60s.
Yep. And the social conservatives in this nation would love nothing more than to turn back the clock to that very same repressed time. They've built up a mythology in which the strong (white) male goes off to work with his lunch pail in the morning, works in his office or factory job, and returns home to have dinner on the table followed by TV time in the family room before bed. The woman stays home to take care of the house. The kids are well adjusted and work hard in school (and of course, stay away from drugs and alcohol).

If you've ever seen the movie Pleasantville it's a good representation of what these types of people believe we should be trying to return to. Nevermind that the system broke for a good reason: it wasn't sustainable, people aren't robots.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5518|foggy bottom

Jay wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

Jay wrote:


Barefoot and pregnant amirite?
Totally missed my point there, Jay.  Feminism has not fostered increased respect for anything regarding men.

As to your question, sure, if she wants to be.  If not, then have a career.  7 yrs ago my wife quit her job at the biochemistry department of our local university to stay home with our children.  Is she happier?  Guess you'd have to ask her to know for sure.  She's her own boss throughout the day and gets to set her own schedule as she pleases.  Sounds better than the deal I have at work tbh.
Have you studied anything related to feminism or do you think of it simply as angry man-hating-women who burn their bras? It's about women's empowerment and the fact that they should be treated as equals. Nothing wrong with that.

In this regard, the article is entirely correct. Kids were previously left to women to raise while the men went off to work. Some men actually want to spend time with their kids so this dynamic was just as detrimental to what they wanted as it was to the women forced into the role. The societal dynamic was pigeonholing people into predefined roles based on their sex. Surely you can see how that lack of freedom is a bad thing, no?
sounds like you had some commie pinko liberal university classes there
Tu Stultus Es
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5617|London, England

eleven bravo wrote:

Jay wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:


Totally missed my point there, Jay.  Feminism has not fostered increased respect for anything regarding men.

As to your question, sure, if she wants to be.  If not, then have a career.  7 yrs ago my wife quit her job at the biochemistry department of our local university to stay home with our children.  Is she happier?  Guess you'd have to ask her to know for sure.  She's her own boss throughout the day and gets to set her own schedule as she pleases.  Sounds better than the deal I have at work tbh.
Have you studied anything related to feminism or do you think of it simply as angry man-hating-women who burn their bras? It's about women's empowerment and the fact that they should be treated as equals. Nothing wrong with that.

In this regard, the article is entirely correct. Kids were previously left to women to raise while the men went off to work. Some men actually want to spend time with their kids so this dynamic was just as detrimental to what they wanted as it was to the women forced into the role. The societal dynamic was pigeonholing people into predefined roles based on their sex. Surely you can see how that lack of freedom is a bad thing, no?
sounds like you had some commie pinko liberal university classes there
Nah, I never took any women's studies classes or anything related to it. This is just a topic that falls under my libertarian 'everyone is equal' philosophy.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5518|foggy bottom
I never took any feminist studies either but as a poli sci major, feminist studies and how they relate to IR and comparative politics and history and whatever is mentioned along with everything else
Tu Stultus Es
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5496|Cleveland, Ohio

Jay wrote:

Uzique wrote:

the 1950's and early 1960's were a good time for reformist left-leaning politics in america and that's about it

the rest of it was a solipstiic timebomb of capitalist-consumerist misery
You need a beret, a French accent, and railroad tracks.
maybe he has all of that
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5518|foggy bottom
for example, feminism had multiple categories
Tu Stultus Es
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6729

Jay wrote:

Uzique wrote:

the 1950's and early 1960's were a good time for reformist left-leaning politics in america and that's about it

the rest of it was a solipstiic timebomb of capitalist-consumerist misery
You need a beret, a French accent, and railroad tracks.
what has any of that got to do with communism or marxism? 90% of the american reformist left were outwardly anti-communist, you dumb fuck. i love when you talk about political science, ideologies and philosophy then don't have a clue about it. everytime you profess your 'libertarianism' i laugh because, well fuck, if you know half as much about libertarianism as you do about the history of us marxism... you're still fucked
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6729

eleven bravo wrote:

I never took any feminist studies either but as a poli sci major, feminist studies and how they relate to IR and comparative politics and history and whatever is mentioned along with everything else
i have a friend that graduated from my uni in english lit last year and went to cambridge to do gender studies

she can argue anyone under a fucking table

feminism is a bottomless pit of bullshittery and boredom
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5844

John you aren't even arguing the libertarian form of feminism but instead the highly academic left "women are victims" feminism. You know the antithesis to libertarianism.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5617|London, England

Uzique wrote:

Jay wrote:

Uzique wrote:

the 1950's and early 1960's were a good time for reformist left-leaning politics in america and that's about it

the rest of it was a solipstiic timebomb of capitalist-consumerist misery
You need a beret, a French accent, and railroad tracks.
what has any of that got to do with communism or marxism? 90% of the american reformist left were outwardly anti-communist, you dumb fuck. i love when you talk about political science, ideologies and philosophy then don't have a clue about it. everytime you profess your 'libertarianism' i laugh because, well fuck, if you know half as much about libertarianism as you do about the history of us marxism... you're still fucked
All that because I called you depressing? Wow man, so easily wound up these days. Listen to less Robert Smith.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

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