Though I mostly agree with Kmar points- military spending exploded from 01-11. The number was something like a 200% increase in the time frame. Compared to spending in other places like infrastructure, education, etc. it could be argued that the 9/11 marked the beginning of a priority shift in the federal government.
this doesn't happen because the middle-east doesn't completely fuck with your country on a daily basis. the middle-east doesn't have a history of taking all the wealth out of your country and distributing it to foreign people whilst the majority of your population live below the poverty line. it's not comparable, at all. but we're missing the point a bit.lowing wrote:
in all fairness to the comparison, no one in the states masses for protests against the ME or its people calling for the deaths of all Muslims. Compared to the "death to Americans" banter displayed in the ME, along with beheading videos and charred American bodies hanging from bridges or dragged through the streets. I do not think it is fair to discuss them as the same things.Uzique wrote:
and like i said it's not 'ideological', i'm not being a contrarian little anti-american bitch. nor am i sympathizing with or deploring the death of a terrorist scumbag. i've even admitted earlier in this thread that the 'messy' and 'controversial' parts of this operation are, sadly and yet realistically, entirely predictable. it just wasn't going to be a textbook, perfectly-legal mission. it's osama bin laden. an exceptional case.
that said, with 'humanism' in mind and whilst we can discuss something of an 'ideal'... yeah, perhaps less drunken college kids cheering in the streets. our side are the ones that are meant to be civilized, advanced, democratic and respectful of human rights. how many times have members of this forum posted links to islamic protests or street-movements in a disgusted and dismissive tone? how many of you have looked down at flag burning and protest actions from the middle-east? yet it's somehow a big party and an excusable behaviour when its americans doing it on american soil. that doesn't float... and it's so much worse when america are the one's meant to be setting an example to the entire world. what happens when the interventionist state starts acting and displays public behaviour like the 'failed states' it intervenes in?
here, watch this... they're always enlightening.
Last edited by Uzique (2011-05-07 13:04:59)
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
be cynical. massive military-industrial spending is a time-proven easy go-to for short-term stimulating of a failing domestic economy.Macbeth wrote:
Though I mostly agree with Kmar points- military spending exploded from 01-11. The number was something like a 200% increase in the time frame. Compared to spending in other places like infrastructure, education, etc. it could be argued that the 9/11 marked the beginning of a priority shift in the federal government.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
lol zeek you are nuts. without oil...which the west found for them...the ME would still be all beduins. get real.
yeah... that's totally plausible. you get real. such an arrogant and narrowminded worldview. everyone would still be living in tribal huts if the white-man didn't come along and show them the path to righteousness and enlightenment, right? it's the space of 100 years. it's almost a matter of dumb luck. the only reason we industrialized first and had an oil-boom before, say, china, was because they were too busy having a cultural revolution instead of an industrial one. we're hardly genetically advanced over here in the occident; we're not predisposed to be more successful. history is contingency, not fate and determination. you get real.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
honestly without oil it would mostly look like yemen
no the mobs of people in the streets are a result of a decade long end to a man hunt. An end where everything went right for the US for a change. They are probably celebrating a euphoric victory but it is a victory that the American people have been waiting on. Yes it is revenge.Kmar wrote:
The economy bounced back rather quickly following the attacks. It resulted in a relative few people losing their jobs. Do you believe that the mobs of people taking to the streets today are the same people who lost their jobs in 2001? It's highly unlikely that most of them even knew people who did. And using your logic the assassination of a few politicians would be more cause for celebration, as they had a much bigger hand in bringing down the economy.lowing wrote:
I didn't say we are fucked economically still because of OBL, but certainly in the early days of post 9/11 terrorism put us on the mat, with the US scrambling as to how t orespond, how to make sure it doesn't happen again, and all of the bullshit that has transpired in security since. and yes, when one can not carry toothpaste on a plane now and has to get anally probed to board a flight, my comments on security have not been exaggerated.Kmar wrote:
The point is that they were separated from the situation. Personally I haven't thought about that bearded pole smoke in very very long time. It certainly didn't dominate my daily thoughts, like perhaps it does with those who have lost a friend or family member in the war or the attacks. The economic turmoil we endure now has very little to do with that man. It's a lending crisis at it's core. The idea that OBL has had this economy stuck in the mud and that it's not a result of our financial policies is ridiculous. As a fan of personal responsibility you should be able to see right through that and recognize it for what it is.. a scapegoat. That loss of a sense of security is also exaggerated. If one looks at the situation logically it's VERY easy to regain a sense of security. Then perhaps they won't be subject to kneejerk emotional whims that allow our politicians to manipulate policy. That's a far greater threat to our freedoms than Osama Bin Laden.
Yea we got him. That's good. Am I calling in to work or skipping school? No. I'll be much more happier when, if ever, our soldiers come home. I do have connections to some of them http://is.gd/RsunhP .
You're right. You can't carry toothpaste on a plane without getting anally probed. No exaggeration at all there. Anyways, if you think said security procedures are actually necessary it's only then that it's not an overreaction. I don't think they are, and so the response is exaggerated.
What choice does the US have really? You got fuckheads carrying bombs in their shoes in their underwear etc. The hoops that the US is forced to jump through are no more crazy than the tactics people try to use to circumvent them. Costing us a fortune. Do you know how much those damn bullet proof doors cost the airline industry, the govt. and the people as just 1 example?
yeah but you're suggesting that if the west didn't have a demand or technology for oil, they wouldn't get it. not true. they're not fucking chimpanzees with stone-tools. as i said, industrializing and developing these technologies took place in the space of 100 years. we're hardly aliens from another galaxy arriving in space-ships and giving them fucking sci-fi equipment. it's arrogant to think that 'without america, the middle east wouldn't be shit, anyway'.11 Bravo wrote:
honestly without oil it would mostly look like yemen
watch the first 5 minutes of the video i posted. and actually watch it. i'm not going to reply to you until you do.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
i didnt say without america
Shouldn't they at least hold their own leaders accountable? It's they who willfully allow the exploitation.Uzique wrote:
this doesn't happen because the middle-east doesn't completely fuck with your country on a daily basis. the middle-east doesn't have a history of taking all the wealth out of your country and distributing it to foreign people whilst the majority of your population live below the poverty line. it's not comparable, at all. but we're missing the point a bit.lowing wrote:
in all fairness to the comparison, no one in the states masses for protests against the ME or its people calling for the deaths of all Muslims. Compared to the "death to Americans" banter displayed in the ME, along with beheading videos and charred American bodies hanging from bridges or dragged through the streets. I do not think it is fair to discuss them as the same things.Uzique wrote:
and like i said it's not 'ideological', i'm not being a contrarian little anti-american bitch. nor am i sympathizing with or deploring the death of a terrorist scumbag. i've even admitted earlier in this thread that the 'messy' and 'controversial' parts of this operation are, sadly and yet realistically, entirely predictable. it just wasn't going to be a textbook, perfectly-legal mission. it's osama bin laden. an exceptional case.
that said, with 'humanism' in mind and whilst we can discuss something of an 'ideal'... yeah, perhaps less drunken college kids cheering in the streets. our side are the ones that are meant to be civilized, advanced, democratic and respectful of human rights. how many times have members of this forum posted links to islamic protests or street-movements in a disgusted and dismissive tone? how many of you have looked down at flag burning and protest actions from the middle-east? yet it's somehow a big party and an excusable behaviour when its americans doing it on american soil. that doesn't float... and it's so much worse when america are the one's meant to be setting an example to the entire world. what happens when the interventionist state starts acting and displays public behaviour like the 'failed states' it intervenes in?
here, watch this... they're always enlightening.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IgOVOPLTYI
.. well, maybe they're starting to hold them accountable now with revolutions and such in the region.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
11b you said the 'west'. they're inter-changeable. my point is the attitude that the west is the civilizing force of the world was invalidated about 50 years ago. it's no longer fashionable. it's the ideology that the western world possessed circa 1890. it's the white man's arrogance and it promoted nothing except intolerance and bigotry. the middle-east needs the west now in that the west is completely dependent on their natural resources. who 'needs' who?11 Bravo wrote:
honestly without oil it would mostly look like yemen
kmar... are you blaming the average middle-eastern citizen? they're the only guys to be sold-out by their ruling classes, right? the west was doing the exact same thing to its proletariat 100 years ago. it's hardly a cultural problem endemic to the arab world.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
we have are own oil and natural gas. push comes to shove we have plenty. dependent? no. saving? yes
right. geopolitics and world history in the last 20 years disagrees with you. if you didn't give a shit and if you were fine you'd be isolationist. besides, that's not the point... you cannot empathize with the middle-eastern citizens or society. the middle-east could probably be a lot more than it is without the west - completely the converse opposite. their 'making' is not our 'success'.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
I didn't say they shouldn't be happy. I said the opposite in fact. My only contention is that is should be relative to everyone's personal experience.lowing wrote:
no the mobs of people in the streets are a result of a decade long end to a man hunt. An end where everything went right for the US for a change. They are probably celebrating a euphoric victory but it is a victory that the American people have been waiting on. Yes it is revenge.Kmar wrote:
The economy bounced back rather quickly following the attacks. It resulted in a relative few people losing their jobs. Do you believe that the mobs of people taking to the streets today are the same people who lost their jobs in 2001? It's highly unlikely that most of them even knew people who did. And using your logic the assassination of a few politicians would be more cause for celebration, as they had a much bigger hand in bringing down the economy.lowing wrote:
I didn't say we are fucked economically still because of OBL, but certainly in the early days of post 9/11 terrorism put us on the mat, with the US scrambling as to how t orespond, how to make sure it doesn't happen again, and all of the bullshit that has transpired in security since. and yes, when one can not carry toothpaste on a plane now and has to get anally probed to board a flight, my comments on security have not been exaggerated.
You're right. You can't carry toothpaste on a plane without getting anally probed. No exaggeration at all there. Anyways, if you think said security procedures are actually necessary it's only then that it's not an overreaction. I don't think they are, and so the response is exaggerated.
What choice does the US have really? You got fuckheads carrying bombs in their shoes in their underwear etc. The hoops that the US is forced to jump through are no more crazy than the tactics people try to use to circumvent them. Costing us a fortune. Do you know how much those damn bullet proof doors cost the airline industry, the govt. and the people as just 1 example?
What choice do we have? Common sense for one. If we follow this path of banning and increased "enhanced security" everytime we find a threat we'll eventually be whittled down to an absolute police state. It's the boiling frog effect. Interestingly enough, none of the procedures we had in place stopped the shoe nor underwear bomber.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
They've projected the image of their own bogeyman unto western civilisation, it's dominating their line of thought - which is completely in the way of tackling the real societal problems they have in their own countries. It's the easiest target - blame the foreigners for everything.Uzique wrote:
this doesn't happen because the middle-east doesn't completely fuck with your country on a daily basis. the middle-east doesn't have a history of taking all the wealth out of your country and distributing it to foreign people whilst the majority of your population live below the poverty line. it's not comparable, at all. but we're missing the point a bit.
here, watch this... they're always enlightening.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IgOVOPLTYI
inane little opines
um hello that's exactly what you guys do 99% of the time, too.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
In what? You mean blaming terrorism?
I trust there are many who know how exactly the radical movements came to be.
I trust there are many who know how exactly the radical movements came to be.
inane little opines
you act as if the middle-eastern habit of 'blaming foreigners' is an arabic trait, or something. as if it's their fault the west is commonly seen as the enemy and the greatest threat to their culture. the west has been using the spooky bad people over the border to cement nationalist spirits for, um, well at least the last 1,000 years. it's a political propaganda trick that works wonders, everytime. the neocons rode two presidential terms with it.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Honestly uzi what do you ever do except insult people and cover up your bullshit with lengthy eloquent writings?
The only thing that seperates you from HaiBai is an extensive vocabulary, because you honestly have the reasoning capacity of a fucking stone suffering from delusions of grandeur or something. 'Dumb kid?' Take a hike and work on your self esteem issues.
The way their/our viewpoint manifests itself is glaringly obvious thank you very much for pointing that out. I however don't assume people here are ignorant of history and/or other cultures.
The only thing that seperates you from HaiBai is an extensive vocabulary, because you honestly have the reasoning capacity of a fucking stone suffering from delusions of grandeur or something. 'Dumb kid?' Take a hike and work on your self esteem issues.
The way their/our viewpoint manifests itself is glaringly obvious thank you very much for pointing that out. I however don't assume people here are ignorant of history and/or other cultures.
inane little opines
people there entirely are ignorant of history and other cultures. that's the entire point.
i'm sorry, darling, do you want me to write nicer for you? :3
i'm sorry, darling, do you want me to write nicer for you? :3
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Thanks sweetcakes
inane little opines
oh and by 'there' i mean the insular united states. just to clear up any ambiguity (i am, after all, writing from the vantage of a liberalist socialist scumbag)
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Well if the college kids in the streets chanting USA and the Quran burnings are anything to go by, then, yes.
But; comparing the crowds cheering because of OBLs death to the crowds in some parts of the ME after 9/11 is an apples/oranges situation. No, it doesn't come across as such in the ME, but you can't forbid them from cheering or stop it. The emotions are entirely understandable.
Less so for the ME part but that comes down to values i.e. cultural differences.
But; comparing the crowds cheering because of OBLs death to the crowds in some parts of the ME after 9/11 is an apples/oranges situation. No, it doesn't come across as such in the ME, but you can't forbid them from cheering or stop it. The emotions are entirely understandable.
Less so for the ME part but that comes down to values i.e. cultural differences.
inane little opines
Oh and with 'here' I was refering to the people on this section in general
inane little opines
I can not agree with a lot of what he says. A lot of the violence generated in the ME is Muslim on Muslim. We are trying to stop that as well as terrorism. It isn't that Islamic culture hates America and here is why, empathize. It is They hate everybody, including their own neighbors, and don't even really need a reason to anymore. Simply because their fathers and grandfathers and great grandfathers did seems good enough.Uzique wrote:
this doesn't happen because the middle-east doesn't completely fuck with your country on a daily basis. the middle-east doesn't have a history of taking all the wealth out of your country and distributing it to foreign people whilst the majority of your population live below the poverty line. it's not comparable, at all. but we're missing the point a bit.lowing wrote:
in all fairness to the comparison, no one in the states masses for protests against the ME or its people calling for the deaths of all Muslims. Compared to the "death to Americans" banter displayed in the ME, along with beheading videos and charred American bodies hanging from bridges or dragged through the streets. I do not think it is fair to discuss them as the same things.Uzique wrote:
and like i said it's not 'ideological', i'm not being a contrarian little anti-american bitch. nor am i sympathizing with or deploring the death of a terrorist scumbag. i've even admitted earlier in this thread that the 'messy' and 'controversial' parts of this operation are, sadly and yet realistically, entirely predictable. it just wasn't going to be a textbook, perfectly-legal mission. it's osama bin laden. an exceptional case.
that said, with 'humanism' in mind and whilst we can discuss something of an 'ideal'... yeah, perhaps less drunken college kids cheering in the streets. our side are the ones that are meant to be civilized, advanced, democratic and respectful of human rights. how many times have members of this forum posted links to islamic protests or street-movements in a disgusted and dismissive tone? how many of you have looked down at flag burning and protest actions from the middle-east? yet it's somehow a big party and an excusable behaviour when its americans doing it on american soil. that doesn't float... and it's so much worse when america are the one's meant to be setting an example to the entire world. what happens when the interventionist state starts acting and displays public behaviour like the 'failed states' it intervenes in?
here, watch this... they're always enlightening.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IgOVOPLTYI
It isn't the Americans strapping suicide vests on children and sending them into the marketplace. Help is help regardless of religion and I think he puts too much emphasis on what the soldiers believe in. I mean schools are being built, who cares by who? DO you think the Americans would blow up a hospital because it was built by a Muslim? DO you think a Muslim extremist would blow one up because it was built by America?
The insurgents in that photo, do you think they would worry about the death of a child if it meant they could kill an American? Do you think an American would kill a child if it meant the death of an insurgent? It goes way deeper than simply walk in their shoes, and empathize. sorry