BF2S Forums Obama Press Conference: Bin Laden Is Dead

Uzique wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:

DonFck wrote:

I'm pretty sure that Osama would've been sentenced to death anyway, man. It's the principle of not lowering one self to the same level.

what level?  it has always been and will always be......wanted dead or alive

not sure where these principles you guys speak of come from

at the end of the day people are going to endlessly bitch over human rights (and they have a point and an entitlement too) - but what everyone must (begrudgingly) concede is that this is fucking osama bin laden. it's an exceptional case. international law and all sorts of ethics necesarily go out of the window. should the law be willingly disrespected and discredited? of course not. it has the right to grumble (and should do, too, to keep any credibility). but i think everyone involved really silently acknowleges and implicitly knows that this shit was not going to go any other way. an entire country was out for the blood of a wanted criminal. it's not going to be a model arrest and a show-trial. the dignity and restraint of proper legal conduct goes way out the window... nothing like 9/11 has happened before, and hopefully nothing will ever again (in every respect: the original event, the reaction, and now this furore).

Shahter wrote:

Kmar wrote:

Uzique wrote:

at the end of the day people are going to endlessly bitch over human rights (and they have a point and an entitlement too) - but what everyone must (begrudgingly) concede is that this is fucking osama bin laden. it's an exceptional case. international law and all sorts of ethics necesarily go out of the window. should the law be willingly disrespected and discredited? of course not. it has the right to grumble (and should do, too, to keep any credibility). but i think everyone involved really silently acknowleges and implicitly knows that this shit was not going to go any other way. an entire country was out for the blood of a wanted criminal. it's not going to be a model arrest and a show-trial. the dignity and restraint of proper legal conduct goes way out the window... nothing like 9/11 has happened before, and hopefully nothing will ever again (in every respect: the original event, the reaction, and now this furore).

This. Also, is there really any doubt of his guilt? How many videos did he release not only taking credit for murdering and torturing innocent people, but threatening more attacks? Taking him to trial in a pretentious parade to prove just how loving we are would have not only have been circus/rallying call, it would have endangered more innocent lives. Like the man said, it's OBL ffs. Giving him the podium is a strategic face palm. I imagine a kill mission has a lower risk than an apprehend mission. Considering the target it makes sense.

i mostly agree with both of you, uzi and kmar - on the the core substance of it anyway. however, i really don't like the way they handle this particular case with osama. obama & co must understand - they wouldn't be where they are is they didn't - that they are creating more controvercy and tension with this than they are resolving.i think it was you, kmar, who posted in another thread - and i completely agree with that - that no matter how imperfect our current law is, international law especially, ultimately it's the only thing that binds our societies and human civilization in general together. yeah, there are instances when the law just doesn't cut it, and the way that obl schtick has been played to us it certainly looks like one such case, but wouldn't you agree that these situations do need to be handled with special care? now look what we have here:
osama's been - let's call a spade a spade - assassinated (or so we are told). then a dna sample has supposedly been taken as proof and the body's been dumped into the sea. and then - what?!? - the president of the united fucking states gets to the podium and says "yo! 'tis been mah carefull designed plan, well done!" - are you fucking kidding me? it looks like of all the possible scenario's they've chosen the one that'd create the most controvercy. what's the point of it anyway - destroying an internationally wanted criminal or boosting obama's approval rating? creating another waive of "mindless patriotism" or inciting yet more tensions between the west and the islamic world? serving justice or spitting it in the face?
i wonder...

lowing wrote:

Shahter wrote:

Kmar wrote:

This. Also, is there really any doubt of his guilt? How many videos did he release not only taking credit for murdering and torturing innocent people, but threatening more attacks? Taking him to trial in a pretentious parade to prove just how loving we are would have not only have been circus/rallying call, it would have endangered more innocent lives. Like the man said, it's OBL ffs. Giving him the podium is a strategic face palm. I imagine a kill mission has a lower risk than an apprehend mission. Considering the target it makes sense.

i mostly agree with both of you, uzi and kmar - on the the core substance of it anyway. however, i really don't like the way they handle this particular case with osama. obama & co must understand - they wouldn't be where they are is they didn't - that they are creating more controvercy and tension with this than they are resolving.i think it was you, kmar, who posted in another thread - and i completely agree with that - that no matter how imperfect our current law is, international law especially, ultimately it's the only thing that binds our societies and human civilization in general together. yeah, there are instances when the law just doesn't cut it, and the way that obl schtick has been played to us it certainly looks like one such case, but wouldn't you agree that these situations do need to be handled with special care? now look what we have here:
osama's been - let's call a spade a spade - assassinated (or so we are told). then a dna sample has supposedly been taken as proof and the body's been dumped into the sea. and then - what?!? - the president of the united fucking states gets to the podium and says "yo! 'tis been mah carefull designed plan, well done!" - are you fucking kidding me? it looks like of all the possible scenario's they've chosen the one that'd create the most controvercy. what's the point of it anyway - destroying an internationally wanted criminal or boosting obama's approval rating? creating another waive of "mindless patriotism" or inciting yet more tensions between the west and the islamic world? serving justice or spitting it in the face?
i wonder...

whoa whoa  wait a second here, this has nothing to do with Islam or the Islamic world remember?

Basically you are bitching about the very same thing I am questioning? If this has nothing to with Islam, and if OBL actions were not representative of Islam, then there really shouldn't be any controversy at all then should there? But there is. Now all you gotta do is step out of the cover of denial and admit as to why. Why are Muslims pissed at the way his body was treated? Why are Muslims pissed that we killed him?

DonFck wrote:

lowing wrote:

Shahter wrote:

i mostly agree with both of you, uzi and kmar - on the the core substance of it anyway. however, i really don't like the way they handle this particular case with osama. obama & co must understand - they wouldn't be where they are is they didn't - that they are creating more controvercy and tension with this than they are resolving.i think it was you, kmar, who posted in another thread - and i completely agree with that - that no matter how imperfect our current law is, international law especially, ultimately it's the only thing that binds our societies and human civilization in general together. yeah, there are instances when the law just doesn't cut it, and the way that obl schtick has been played to us it certainly looks like one such case, but wouldn't you agree that these situations do need to be handled with special care? now look what we have here:
osama's been - let's call a spade a spade - assassinated (or so we are told). then a dna sample has supposedly been taken as proof and the body's been dumped into the sea. and then - what?!? - the president of the united fucking states gets to the podium and says "yo! 'tis been mah carefull designed plan, well done!" - are you fucking kidding me? it looks like of all the possible scenario's they've chosen the one that'd create the most controvercy. what's the point of it anyway - destroying an internationally wanted criminal or boosting obama's approval rating? creating another waive of "mindless patriotism" or inciting yet more tensions between the west and the islamic world? serving justice or spitting it in the face?
i wonder...

whoa whoa  wait a second here, this has nothing to do with Islam or the Islamic world remember?

Basically you are bitching about the very same thing I am questioning? If this has nothing to with Islam, and if OBL actions were not representative of Islam, then there really shouldn't be any controversy at all then should there? But there is. Now all you gotta do is step out of the cover of denial and admit as to why. Why are Muslims pissed at the way his body was treated? Why are Muslims pissed that we killed him?

I'm guessing he meant Islamic extremists instead of Islam. But you can split hairs if you want.

Shahter wrote:

lowing wrote:

whoa whoa  wait a second here, this has nothing to do with Islam or the Islamic world remember?

Basically you are bitching about the very same thing I am questioning? If this has nothing to with Islam, and if OBL actions were not representative of Islam, then there really shouldn't be any controversy at all then should there? But there is. Now all you gotta do is step out of the cover of denial and admit as to why. Why are Muslims pissed at the way his body was treated? Why are Muslims pissed that we killed him?

i'm not a muslim but i'm pissed all the same (though i'm not sure if you actually killed him). i understand why you'd do it, mind you, but the way it's been handled is simply outrageous.

as to why muslims would be especially pissed: well, aside from being portrayed an internationally wanted terrorist, obl was also a pretty popular imam, very knowledgable in the ways of islam and he used his influence to certain ends. did he represents the whole of islam? no. is it possible at all for a single person to represent a religion such as islam? no.

move along, lowing. nothing to see here.

lowing wrote:

Shahter wrote:

lowing wrote:

whoa whoa  wait a second here, this has nothing to do with Islam or the Islamic world remember?

Basically you are bitching about the very same thing I am questioning? If this has nothing to with Islam, and if OBL actions were not representative of Islam, then there really shouldn't be any controversy at all then should there? But there is. Now all you gotta do is step out of the cover of denial and admit as to why. Why are Muslims pissed at the way his body was treated? Why are Muslims pissed that we killed him?

i'm not a muslim but i'm pissed all the same (though i'm not sure if you actually killed him). i understand why you'd do it, mind you, but the way it's been handled is simply outrageous.

as to why muslims would be especially pissed: well, aside from being portrayed an internationally wanted terrorist, obl was also a pretty popular imam, very knowledgable in the ways of islam and he used his influence to certain ends. did he represents the whole of islam? no. is it possible at all for a single person to represent a religion such as islam? no.

move along, lowing. nothing to see here.

ok you do realize that is "moderate" muslims that are pissed right? We are not talking about suicide bombers here.

Spark wrote:

http://www.dawn.com/2011/05/06/henceforth-a-new-set-of-rules.html

We in Pakistan may shed tears of indignation but they will mean nothing; we are suffering for our skewed security policies that now endanger our very survival.

How have we reached this lamentable stage? The problem lies in our narrative of statehood. We take pride in considering Pakistan as an Islamic state.

Clearly, religious right and wrong cannot be made the basis of state management for that is best run on the principles of expediency and political purpose. Sultan Alauddin Khilji understood this 700 years ago when he declared that he did not know whether or not what he commanded was permitted under Sharia law. Thus, he gave commands that he considered were of benefit to the country and appeared opportune under the circumstances. He did not know whether that pleased God or not.

By declaring Pakistan an Islamic state, we have exposed ourselves to huge risks to the state. When we mix our national narrative with religion, we permit international issues to enter our political sphere — if any problem of an Islamic dimension arises anywhere in the world, it automatically becomes Pakistan’s problem. This also allows others to indulge in proxy wars of a sectarian nature within Pakistan.

Bin Laden said that he was creating an Islamic caliphate and was fighting the US since it subverted Muslim countries and guided their policies. He hoped that what he set in motion on 9/11 would start an Islamic revolution, resulting in the establishment of a caliphate.

That did not happen. He must have been quite dejected when he saw the motivating force of the recent uprisings in the Middle East. The mass revolutions in the Arab world over the past four months showed that Al Qaeda was politically inconsequential.

As Robert Fisk noted, “During the past few months, millions of Arab Muslims rose up and were prepared for their own martyrdom — not for Islam but for freedom and liberty and democracy. Bin Laden didn’t get rid of the tyrants. The people did.

And they didn’t want a caliph.” This sums up the tragedy of Bin Laden. He
had become irrelevant for a large majority of Muslims since many of them chose secular values of freedom and liberty, not an Islamic caliphate.

Pakistan and its leaders must learn from Bin Laden’s failure and understand that the future lies in dealing with problems related to freedom and liberty, rather than jihad and coercion. If we refuse to transform, we will not be a viable nation — we will rapidly descend into dysfunction and chaos. The choice is clear.

The writer is chairman of the Regional Institute of Policy Research in Peshawar.

One can hope.

Oh, and lowing in saying Hamas/Taliban = everyone in the ME shocker

we will ask where the ghairat of the ‘Ghairat Brigades’ was, when four foreign helicopters crossed our border and after flying for an hour over our ‘sovereign’ territory, swooped onto Abbottabad; whilst we will definitely ask where our ‘self-respect’ is; now that the Americans have done what they said they would do if they had the intelligence — go after who they consider their enemies no matter where they are holed up — it is more important to ask why our much-vaunted Deep State didn’t know Osama bin Laden was living in Abbottabad Cantonment all these years?

And to ask why everyone and Charlie’s aunt in the security establishment went blue and red with anger when told that Osama and his close advisers were hiding in Pakistan?

Why, yours truly has been called a traitor deserving of death when I suggested that only given what the establishment itself told us about Osama’s failing kidneys and need for regular dialysis there was no way he was living in a cave on some remote mountain. Why indeed, did the Commando puff out his chest and glare at Hamid Karzai when the Afghan president suggested that Al Qaeda’s top leadership was hiding in Pakistan? Why the stout denial all these years?

From news that is filtering out, CNN with the help of Google maps, already told us early on Monday morning London time, that Osama was living with his youngest wife and some other members of his family and tens of armed guards in a house eight times bigger than all the other houses in the area: walls 12 feet high; no telephone connection; no cellphone signals emitting from the house, et al.

I mention this because the quite preposterous house should have stuck out like a sore thumb and been the subject of some suspicion on the part of the Mother of All Agencies which routinely bugs people’s telephones and has the equipment to pinpoint a cellphone to within 10 metres.

However, we are being told to believe that no one in Pakistan, not the Hazara police, not the IB, not the ISI, not MI, had the slightest idea just who lived in that absurd house located not far from the Pakistan Military Academy where officer cadets, the future leaders of the Pakistan Army, are trained. (Incidentally, where, not a week ago, the COAS asserted that the army had broken the back of the terrorists!) Indeed, one should have thought that a cantonment with not only this academy but three regimental centres which train recruits and turn them into soldiers should have been a most sensitive station. I can only say if they didn’t know, why didn’t they know? The truth will out one day.

lowing wrote:

Shahter wrote:

lowing wrote:

ok you do realize that is "moderate" muslims that are pissed right? We are not talking about suicide bombers here.

yes. they are pissed because one of their faith has been assassinated and denied the proper burial. move along.

Ummm this board has gone to great lengths to emphasize OBL had nothing to do with Islam. Plenty of Christians are killed and no other Christians give so much a fuck about it that a nation is willing suppress free press and free speech out of fear of Christ reprisals. So what makes Islam so different?