BF2S Forums Israel and Palestine

Dilbert_X wrote:

The blockade is as good as total - why are exports banned?

Neither side took up the offer, why do you always see that as the fault of the Palestinians?
Why should they have to compromise when Israel offers nothing in return?

I don't always see it as the fault of the Palestinians...why do you ONLY see it as the fault of the Israelis?

Israel certainly does offer things in return--but when you refuse to be objective on the issue, it's impossible to see it.

It has been fairly widely accepted that Arafat biffed the Camp David accords in his refusal of the Israeli offer.

Dilbert_X wrote:

The thing is, the Israelis offer things they are holding illegally, so its not really much of an offer.

That is a viewpoint. Another viewpoint is that Israel won that territory when fighting for its existence against multiple other countries that invaded it on behalf of/along with the Palestinians. Make a bed=lie in it.

Dilbert_X wrote:

Its also widely accepted Camp David was a shit offer, agreeing to give 10% of the West Bank to Israel in return for nothing.

By those who default against Israel, maybe. By those who are more objective, it was viewed as a massive mistake on the part of Arafat.

lowing wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Spark wrote:

+1

The problem I have with this view is that it sees the two sides as equal, having equal claims to the region and practicing equal douchebaggery against each other.
Whereas the Israelis started this, have done far worse to the Palestinians than vice versa and are continuing to escalate it, all the while claiming to be victims.
Its not a 'dispute' which began 2,000 years ago, it really began around 1900.

I disagree. The Jews have roots there that date back farther than anyone else involved.

oh, please....

The jewish tribes were just one of many ethnic people living in the area of palestine / judäa over a period of a couple of centuries. To say that they had any more right to form an independent state of their own than any other ethnic group living in that area after WWII, ist just absurd.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_De … on_of_1917

The british were lobbied into supporting the creation of an independent state of Israel by zionists in London, with blatant disregard for the actual population in the area at the time, which was predominantly arab and muslim.

B.Schuss wrote:

lowing wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

The problem I have with this view is that it sees the two sides as equal, having equal claims to the region and practicing equal douchebaggery against each other.
Whereas the Israelis started this, have done far worse to the Palestinians than vice versa and are continuing to escalate it, all the while claiming to be victims.
Its not a 'dispute' which began 2,000 years ago, it really began around 1900.

I disagree. The Jews have roots there that date back farther than anyone else involved.

oh, please....

The jewish tribes were just one of many ethnic people living in the area of palestine / judäa over a period of a couple of centuries. To say that they had any more right to form an independent state of their own than any other ethnic group living in that area after WWII, ist just absurd.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_De … on_of_1917

The british were lobbied into supporting the creation of an independent state of Israel by zionists in London, with blatant disregard for the actual population in the area at the time, which was predominantly arab and muslim.

That's a very simplistic overview.

For a start it was a condition of the league of nations mandate. Also, there were significant efforts to enforce the section of the delaration highlighted below (100'000 troops sent there to restrict immigration and keep the peace):

His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country

You've also ignored all the white papers and government commission reports on the matter, which are extremely relevant.

The problem was abuse of the system by the Jewish immigrants, who drove the British out through terror campaigns targeting them and the non-Jewish population of Palestine.

The ruthlessness of the Jewish agency and other Zionist organisations are what caused the problem. There are elements of truth in the point you make, but you are not coming anywhere near portraying a clear picture of what happened.

lowing wrote:

I didn't recall the Jews refusing the 2 state partition, I thought it was the Arabs and Muslims that flatly refused it and went to war instead. Did the Jews say no one else could have a country in the region, or did the Arabs and Muslims say it?

The root of the problem was the rest of the world saw the two state solution as a simple matter of giving two groups of people regional governance over certain areas, the jews saw it as the world giving them a territory which they were free to ethnically cleanse to create a mono-religious, mono-racial paradise for themselves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

Dilbert_X wrote:

lowing wrote:

I didn't recall the Jews refusing the 2 state partition, I thought it was the Arabs and Muslims that flatly refused it and went to war instead. Did the Jews say no one else could have a country in the region, or did the Arabs and Muslims say it?

The root of the problem was the rest of the world saw the two state solution as a simple matter of giving two groups of people regional governance over certain areas, the jews saw it as the world giving them a territory which they were free to ethnically cleanse to create a mono-religious, mono-racial paradise for themselves.

fuck sakes Dilbert your viewpoints are so utterly ridiculous.

Move to Israel if you care so damn much

Last edited by Shocking (2011-04-19 09:01:19)

Cheeky_Ninja06 wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

From your source...

75.5% Jewish
20.3% Arab
4.2% other[2]

So I ask again, evidence of ethnically cleansed mono racial paradise?

And what were the ratios pre-1946?

Dilbert_X wrote:

Cheeky_Ninja06 wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

From your source...

75.5% Jewish
20.3% Arab
4.2% other[2]

So I ask again, evidence of ethnically cleansed mono racial paradise?

And what were the ratios pre-1946?

Immigration of Jews to Israel accounts for the increase after 1946. Immigration =/= ethnic cleansing.

Dilbert_X wrote:

And what, the population of Palestinians didn't drop at all?

No. Actually, as has been pointed out before it has continued to grow--with the exception of a period in the 50s which was rife with warfare and thus exodus/refugees--and the rate of population growth among Arabs in Israel is higher than that of Jews.

Dilbert_X wrote:

So, the Palestinians have gone from a majority to a minority in their own country and you think its good news?

Where did I say it was "good news"? I merely said it wasn't ethnic cleansing. There is a pretty big distance between "ethnic cleansing" and "good news."

And the Palestinians aren't minorities in the West Bank or Gaza...so how do you come to the conclusion that they are a "minority in their own country"? Unless you are of the opinion that Israel doesn't have the right to exist...

Dilbert_X wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lieberman_Plan

You should read your own cited sources, Dilbert.

the plan does not call for any forcible removal of anyone from their home. The plan, instead, simply redraws the border between Palestinian and Israeli communities to make them more homogeneous (i.e., nearby Arab communities are redrawn to be included in the Palestinian Territory, while nearby Jewish territories are redrawn to be included in Israel).

That is not ethnic cleansing. Not even close.

I'm not saying it's good or bad. I'm just saying it's not ethnic cleansing. Learn what terms mean before you start bandying them about.