Israel and Palestine

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Israel and Palestine

2011-04-10 00:58:16

#726

lowing: Banned; +1,662|6909|USA

FEOS wrote:
I think you need to read a bit more. A two-state solution is the generally agreed upon long-term solution by nearly everyone who isn't of the "Israel has no right to exist" party, which is quite small. They are a recognized member of the UN, even recognized by those who don't think they should exist. Get over it.

translation: the 2 state solution is generally agreed upon NOW, by nearly everyone who would not accept it and went to war to destroy Israel, rather than live peacefully with it........ and lost.

NOW, they want to negotiate, problem is, it will never be "in good faith", as it has been openly stated.

They want the UN and the world to do for them, what they could not do by choice of war.

Last edited by lowing (2011-04-10 00:59:26)

2011-04-10 01:09:33

#727

AussieReaper: ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°); +5,761|6411|what

They shouldn't be punished for what their grandparents did.

2011-04-10 01:13:34

#728

lowing: Banned; +1,662|6909|USA

AussieReaper wrote:
They shouldn't be punished for what their grandparents did.

It wasn't their grandparents claiming that any negotiations would be temporary until Israel could be destroyed. It also isn't their grandparents launching rockets into Israel today, and it wasn't their grandparents electing a terrorist organization for their govt.

but hey, I consider it progress if you would even recognize their grandparents did anything wrong in the first place.

2011-04-10 01:18:39

#729

AussieReaper: ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°); +5,761|6411|what

You won't see progress until Israel understands they have an army and that Palestinians don't.

There is no threat. Rockets do fuck all. And they are launched by terrorists.

Palestinians want to live in Peace.

2011-04-10 01:20:50

#730

Spark: liquid fluoride thorium reactor; +874|6933|Canberra, AUS

I wouldn't say that to folks living in Tel Aviv or whatever other town is close to the Strip, tbh.

The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
^{~ Richard Feynman}

2011-04-10 01:28:39

#731

Poseidon: Fudgepack DeQueef; +3,253|6796|Long Island, New York

AussieReaper wrote:
You won't see progress until Israel understands they have an army and that Palestinians don't.

I'm all for the safety of innocent Palestinians, but this is a dumb fucking statement on so many levels.

2011-04-10 01:31:25

#732

lowing: Banned; +1,662|6909|USA

AussieReaper wrote:
You won't see progress until Israel understands they have an army and that Palestinians don't.

There is no threat. Rockets do fuck all. And they are launched by terrorists.

Palestinians want to live in Peace.

Point is Aussie any and every attempt at peace or negotiation by Israel has been exploited to attack Israel. Gaza being a perfect example. Israel leaves Gaza and then rockets start flying out of Gaza.

and I meant progress in your attitude.

Last edited by lowing (2011-04-10 01:32:18)

2011-04-10 01:35:49

#733

AussieReaper: ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°); +5,761|6411|what

Poseidon wrote:
AussieReaper wrote:
You won't see progress until Israel understands they have an army and that Palestinians don't.
I'm all for the safety of innocent Palestinians, but this is a dumb fucking statement on so many levels.

Yeah, and whys that?

Because retaliation to a rocket which lands in the middle of nowhere by declaring war and rolling in with gunships isn't exactly eye for an eye.

2011-04-10 01:39:59

#734

Poseidon: Fudgepack DeQueef; +3,253|6796|Long Island, New York

AussieReaper wrote:
Poseidon wrote:
AussieReaper wrote:
You won't see progress until Israel understands they have an army and that Palestinians don't.
I'm all for the safety of innocent Palestinians, but this is a dumb fucking statement on so many levels.
Yeah, and whys that?

Because retaliation to a rocket which lands in the middle of nowhere by declaring war and rolling in with gunships isn't exactly eye for an eye.

So the US should've responded to Pearl Harbor by just attacking one of Japan's ports, and then be done with it? The whole "disproportionate" response argument is fucking stupid. If a group which was voted in starts attacking your citizens, you do WHATEVER you can to eliminate them.

2011-04-10 01:49:23

#735

AussieReaper: ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°); +5,761|6411|what

Poseidon wrote:
AussieReaper wrote:
Poseidon wrote:
I'm all for the safety of innocent Palestinians, but this is a dumb fucking statement on so many levels.
Yeah, and whys that?

Because retaliation to a rocket which lands in the middle of nowhere by declaring war and rolling in with gunships isn't exactly eye for an eye.
So the US should've responded to Pearl Harbor by just attacking one of Japan's ports, and then be done with it? The whole "disproportionate" response argument is fucking stupid. If a group which was voted in starts attacking your citizens, you do WHATEVER you can to eliminate them.

haha oh wow. You're comparing a declaration of war by the bombing of Pearl Harbor, to a rocket attack launched by terrorists?

Wow. Good one chief. Oh and just an FYI, this conflict has been going on a little longer than since Hamas were voted in...

2011-04-10 01:57:02

#736

lowing: Banned; +1,662|6909|USA

AussieReaper wrote:
Poseidon wrote:
AussieReaper wrote:

Yeah, and whys that?

Because retaliation to a rocket which lands in the middle of nowhere by declaring war and rolling in with gunships isn't exactly eye for an eye.
So the US should've responded to Pearl Harbor by just attacking one of Japan's ports, and then be done with it? The whole "disproportionate" response argument is fucking stupid. If a group which was voted in starts attacking your citizens, you do WHATEVER you can to eliminate them.
haha oh wow. You're comparing a declaration of war by the bombing of Pearl Harbor, to a rocket attack launched by terrorists?

Wow. Good one chief. Oh and just an FYI, this conflict has been going on a little longer than since Hamas were voted in...

yes it started when the Arab and Islamic nations declared war on Israel. What is your point?

2011-04-10 06:35:31

#737

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6669|'Murka

An anti-tank guided missile into a school bus, seriously wounding the driver and a sixteen year old student, "landing in the middle of nowhere."

ATGMs go where you aim them. In his case, a school bus. Clearly a military target.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2011-04-10 11:51:42

#738

Poseidon: Fudgepack DeQueef; +3,253|6796|Long Island, New York

AussieReaper wrote:
Poseidon wrote:
AussieReaper wrote:

Yeah, and whys that?

Because retaliation to a rocket which lands in the middle of nowhere by declaring war and rolling in with gunships isn't exactly eye for an eye.
So the US should've responded to Pearl Harbor by just attacking one of Japan's ports, and then be done with it? The whole "disproportionate" response argument is fucking stupid. If a group which was voted in starts attacking your citizens, you do WHATEVER you can to eliminate them.
haha oh wow. You're comparing a declaration of war by the bombing of Pearl Harbor, to a rocket attack launched by terrorists?

Wow. Good one chief. Oh and just an FYI, this conflict has been going on a little longer than since Hamas were voted in...

You're the one who said there should be an "eye for an eye" response, which is mindbogglingly retarded. That doesn't happen, nor should it happen.

And as FEOS just posted, it's not like it's just rocket attacks. There was the bus stop bombing the other week, now this... Israel's doing exactly what they should be. Taking out a group that's continuously attacking it. I'd love to see what you thought if you lived somewhere like Sderot.

From mid-June 2007 to mid-February 2008, 771 rockets and 857 mortar bombs were fired at Sderot and the western Negev, an average of three or four each a day.[5]

Yeah, just a few rockets.

2011-04-11 02:20:47

#739

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,815|6364|eXtreme to the maX

lowing wrote:
AussieReaper wrote:
You won't see progress until Israel understands they have an army and that Palestinians don't.

There is no threat. Rockets do fuck all. And they are launched by terrorists.

Palestinians want to live in Peace.
Point is Aussie any and every attempt at peace or negotiation by Israel has been exploited to attack Israel. Gaza being a perfect example. Israel leaves Gaza and then rockets start flying out of Gaza.

and I meant progress in your attitude.

Israel didn't even respond to the last two attempts at peace or negotiation, by the Arab league in 2002 and 2007.

Fuck Israel

2011-04-11 02:27:22

#740

lowing: Banned; +1,662|6909|USA

Dilbert_X wrote:
lowing wrote:
AussieReaper wrote:
You won't see progress until Israel understands they have an army and that Palestinians don't.

There is no threat. Rockets do fuck all. And they are launched by terrorists.

Palestinians want to live in Peace.
Point is Aussie any and every attempt at peace or negotiation by Israel has been exploited to attack Israel. Gaza being a perfect example. Israel leaves Gaza and then rockets start flying out of Gaza.

and I meant progress in your attitude.
Israel didn't even respond to the last two attempts at peace or negotiation, by the Arab league in 2002 and 2007.

Was this the same Arab league that refused the 2 state solution from the beginning, choosing war instead and losing? The same Arab league that now want the UN and the world to do what they could not accomplish through blood shed? Then same Arab league that has made its position on Israel perfectly clear for the past 65 years?

Last edited by lowing (2011-04-11 02:36:58)

2011-04-11 03:21:51

#741

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6669|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:
lowing wrote:
AussieReaper wrote:
You won't see progress until Israel understands they have an army and that Palestinians don't.

There is no threat. Rockets do fuck all. And they are launched by terrorists.

Palestinians want to live in Peace.
Point is Aussie any and every attempt at peace or negotiation by Israel has been exploited to attack Israel. Gaza being a perfect example. Israel leaves Gaza and then rockets start flying out of Gaza.

and I meant progress in your attitude.
Israel didn't even respond to the last two attempts at peace or negotiation, by the Arab league in 2002 and 2007.

You need to research a bit more. There were at least three other negotiating sessions the Israelis and Palestinians participated in between 2002 and 2010...they just weren't brokered by the Arab League.

And Israel did respond to the 2002 Arab League plan, proffered during the Beirut Summit:

In response, Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres welcomed it and said: "... the details of every peace plan must be discussed directly between Israel and the Palestinians, and to make this possible, the Palestinian Authority must put an end to terror, the horrifying expression of which we witnessed just last night in Netanya," [3] referring to Netanya suicide attack perpetrated on previous evening which the Beirut Summit has failed to address. Many in the Israel camp argue that this proposal carries a lot less weight coming after the Palestinian Authority rejected Ehud Barak's offer at Camp David.

2011-04-11 04:43:25

#742

AussieReaper: ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°); +5,761|6411|what

Poseidon wrote:
And as FEOS just posted, it's not like it's just rocket attacks. There was the bus stop bombing the other week, now this... Israel's doing exactly what they should be. Taking out a group that's continuously attacking it. I'd love to see what you thought if you lived somewhere like Sderot.

From mid-June 2007 to mid-February 2008, 771 rockets and 857 mortar bombs were fired at Sderot and the western Negev, an average of three or four each a day.[5]
Yeah, just a few rockets.

If Israel were taking out a group that were continuously attacking it, they wouldn't also be killing civilians and taking away territory from innocent civilians. Bulldozing homes of innocent civilians. Displacing thousands of innocent civilians. You do understand that, yeah?

Wanna quote statistics of rocket attacks... you ever look at the statistics of fatalities?

3 week Gaza war saw:

So far, 1,010 Palestinians have been killed, among them 315 children and 95 women, Dr Moawiya Hassanein, the head of Gaza's medical emergency services, told the Guardian. The number of injured after 19 days of fighting stood at 4,700, he said.

As well as the Palestinian death toll, 13 Israelis have been killed, including three civilians.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ja … -israel-un

For each Israeli killed. 10 children were.

2011-04-11 05:33:50

#743

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,815|6364|eXtreme to the maX

FEOS wrote:
In response, Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres welcomed it and said: "... the details of every peace plan must be discussed directly between Israel and the Palestinians, and to make this possible, the Palestinian Authority must put an end to terror, the horrifying expression of which we witnessed just last night in Netanya," [3] referring to Netanya suicide attack perpetrated on previous evening which the Beirut Summit has failed to address. Many in the Israel camp argue that this proposal carries a lot less weight coming after the Palestinian Authority rejected Ehud Barak's offer at Camp David.

So in responding Peres at once dismissed it, nice.

Fuck Israel

2011-04-11 06:43:26

#744

Cheeky_Ninja06: Member; +52|6990|Cambridge, England

AussieReaper wrote:
Poseidon wrote:
And as FEOS just posted, it's not like it's just rocket attacks. There was the bus stop bombing the other week, now this... Israel's doing exactly what they should be. Taking out a group that's continuously attacking it. I'd love to see what you thought if you lived somewhere like Sderot.

From mid-June 2007 to mid-February 2008, 771 rockets and 857 mortar bombs were fired at Sderot and the western Negev, an average of three or four each a day.[5]
Yeah, just a few rockets.
If Israel were taking out a group that were continuously attacking it, they wouldn't also be killing civilians and taking away territory from innocent civilians. Bulldozing homes of innocent civilians. Displacing thousands of innocent civilians. You do understand that, yeah?

Wanna quote statistics of rocket attacks... you ever look at the statistics of fatalities?

3 week Gaza war saw:
So far, 1,010 Palestinians have been killed, among them 315 children and 95 women, Dr Moawiya Hassanein, the head of Gaza's medical emergency services, told the Guardian. The number of injured after 19 days of fighting stood at 4,700, he said.

As well as the Palestinian death toll, 13 Israelis have been killed, including three civilians.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ja … -israel-un

For each Israeli killed. 10 children were.

Seriously?

So is your view that you are committing war crimes if your "army" dishes out more casualties than it sustains?

Actually no wait I see your point, if say a terrorist organization attacked the USA with some form of low tech weaponry (maybe a commercial airline?) it would be completely out of order for the US to react at all, specifically regarding invading another country. Or is that justified because more people died during 9/11 than did in the iraq / afgahn conflict? (pretty sure thats not true but dont have the figures to hand).

Are you making the point that Israel should just sit by and receive 3/4 rocket attacks a day and just ignore them until the Palestinians have had enough practice to start killing more people, and only then should Israel retaliate?

Another solution would be if Iran gave Palestine a load of tanks, aircraft and modern equipment. Im sure this would only serve to make the area more peaceful.

2011-04-11 10:22:05

#745

Poseidon: Fudgepack DeQueef; +3,253|6796|Long Island, New York

AussieReaper wrote:
Poseidon wrote:
And as FEOS just posted, it's not like it's just rocket attacks. There was the bus stop bombing the other week, now this... Israel's doing exactly what they should be. Taking out a group that's continuously attacking it. I'd love to see what you thought if you lived somewhere like Sderot.

From mid-June 2007 to mid-February 2008, 771 rockets and 857 mortar bombs were fired at Sderot and the western Negev, an average of three or four each a day.[5]
Yeah, just a few rockets.
If Israel were taking out a group that were continuously attacking it, they wouldn't also be killing civilians and taking away territory from innocent civilians. Bulldozing homes of innocent civilians. Displacing thousands of innocent civilians. You do understand that, yeah?

Wanna quote statistics of rocket attacks... you ever look at the statistics of fatalities?

3 week Gaza war saw:
So far, 1,010 Palestinians have been killed, among them 315 children and 95 women, Dr Moawiya Hassanein, the head of Gaza's medical emergency services, told the Guardian. The number of injured after 19 days of fighting stood at 4,700, he said.

As well as the Palestinian death toll, 13 Israelis have been killed, including three civilians.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ja … -israel-un

For each Israeli killed. 10 children were.

Again, there are things I don't agree with concerning Israel, especially the settlements. What you are saying is that Israel shouldn't respond to rocket attacks, and the fact that they respond in the manner they do is "disproportionate". It's fucking stupid. I don't really care how many more Palestinian civilians were killed as compared to Israeli civilians. That has fuck all to do with the point that if Israel is being attacked by a group, they should be doing what they can to take that group out since that group seems intent on continuing these attacks day in and day out. There's no "eye for an eye" bullshit. That's a naive view of war, and I'd love to know any major power in world history who responded to being attacked by a group by just trying to kill the same amount of people the people who attacked them killed. Collateral damage fucking sucks. No disagreement here. But when Hamas hides in public areas... shit happens.

I simply do not understand the "Israel's killed more people, so they're the bad guys" argument. If Hamas had a stronger military than Israel, you'd see thousands upon thousands of Israeli deaths.

2011-04-11 10:46:20

#746

Macbeth: Banned; +2,444|5844

The "shit happens" train of logic regarding war deaths is always a fun ride...

The whole Israel heavy handediness thing is funny in a sick sort of way though since the Israeli response helps perpetrate the very things they are responding to \o/

But whatever, I don't care how many people Israel kills but I don't think they should be doing it with our money, weapons, support. /random thoughts

2011-04-12 03:31:06

#747

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6669|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:
FEOS wrote:
In response, Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres welcomed it and said: "... the details of every peace plan must be discussed directly between Israel and the Palestinians, and to make this possible, the Palestinian Authority must put an end to terror, the horrifying expression of which we witnessed just last night in Netanya," [3] referring to Netanya suicide attack perpetrated on previous evening which the Beirut Summit has failed to address. Many in the Israel camp argue that this proposal carries a lot less weight coming after the Palestinian Authority rejected Ehud Barak's offer at Camp David.
So in responding Peres at once dismissed it, nice.

So the Israelis are supposed to accept whatever is offered, but it's perfectly fine for the Palestinians to reject whatever is offered to them?

Double standard.

And you said Israel didn't even respond to either of the Arab League proposals. You were wrong.

AR: You seem to confuse Gaza and the West Bank yet again. Pretty sure Israel isn't building settlements in Gaza. Yet rocket attacks are coming from Gaza. And Hamas' "CNN Strategy" is fairly well documented, as well.

2011-04-12 04:16:01

#748

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,815|6364|eXtreme to the maX

If you remember, there was a perfectly good deal on the table at Camp David, however the Israelis stepped back at the last second and offered a rubbish deal.

If 'respond' = 'dismiss out of hand' then you're right, they did respond.

As for Gaza, Israel is still enforcing a total blockade on Gaza. There were years when the Palestinians did nothing, and yet the blockade remained and they were randomly shelled.

Fuck Israel

2011-04-12 04:39:00

#749

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6669|'Murka

What you deem a perfectly good deal clearly wasn't "perfectly good" for all parties, otherwise it would've been accepted. Arafat did the same thing--multiple times, based on his own perception of his peoples' interests.

You see it as "dismiss out of hand" when it was clearly considered, and offered to the Palestinians as a starting point for discussions, per the quote. Did the Palestinians take up that offer? Clearly not. Now who was dismissive?

And the blockade is not total. I'm sure as soon as Hamas stops shooting rockets into Israel and disavows terrorism, Israel will lift the blockade. The shelling isn't random at all, and you know it. It is in response to rocket attacks and directed at the point of origin of those attacks.

Seriously, Dilbert...

2011-04-12 06:02:14

#750

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,815|6364|eXtreme to the maX

The blockade is as good as total - why are exports banned?

Neither side took up the offer, why do you always see that as the fault of the Palestinians?
Why should they have to compromise when Israel offers nothing in return?

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2011-04-12 06:03:25)

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Poseidon wrote:

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Poseidon wrote:

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