Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 … 13

 

2011-04-03 05:24:44
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6934|USA

Uzique wrote:

Jay wrote:

lowing wrote:


In the context of the discussion, I thought it was understood that religion denoted, some sort of supernatural belief and consequence.

I was not going for political agendas.
They aren't the same. If a football player wears the same underwear every game of the season because he believes it brings him luck that's a superstition. A religion is an organized set of beliefs which are applied universally to all adherents.

If that football player convinced his entire team to wear the same pairs of underwear all season for luck, that would be a subsect of religion, like a cult. The only real difference between a cult and a religion is the level of organization and the number of adherents.
"political agency".

not agenda, lowing. agency. agency in philosophy is a capacity to act and enact.
I meant what I posted, and I understood what he said, I was referring to the political agenda set out by the religion. To gain more power, more control, more land more wealth.

So again, when I spoke of religion in this portion of the discuss with you guys, I did not have that in mind. I was thinking way more basic. A belief system that included forces beyond the control of humanity where morality might have been developed. Still can not think of a single govt. that existed without some form of religion behind it.
2011-04-03 05:25:50
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6753
well how do you define 'government'? a political power structure? tribes are a form of (self) government.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2011-04-03 05:29:56
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6934|USA

11 Bravo wrote:

Uzique wrote:

don't 99% of troops sign up for money and a career cause they have no other opportunities? k
i dunno about 99% but i needed college money.
I dunno anyone that signed up for money.

Basically you sign up for various reasons, patriotism, adventure ( so you think), college, and yes, no other options as you see it.

Joining the military opens doors of opportunity for those that do so.

What I love though, are these people that look down on joining as if they are superior in some way and yet, there very freedom to be an asshole and snub their noses is protected by the very people that choose to serve.
2011-04-03 05:32:03
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6934|USA

Uzique wrote:

well how do you define 'government'? a political power structure? tribes are a form of (self) government.
Any organized society that have set moral guidelines they follow. I would include tribes, since tribes have "chiefs", "elders" etc....

I do not see how you can have a govt. without a rule of law or moral code established. and for me the question becomes where did that moral code derive

Last edited by lowing (2011-04-03 05:33:10)

2011-04-03 05:33:13
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6753
well then there you go... government without religion. law and order without religion.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2011-04-03 05:33:45
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6934|USA

Uzique wrote:

well then there you go... government without religion. law and order without religion.
I edited sorry bout that.

but those tribes have medicine men, witch doctors etc.....all rolling bones for some reason

Last edited by lowing (2011-04-03 05:34:40)

2011-04-03 05:35:40
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6753
not necessarily... depending on the tribe... and that isn't 'religion'. that's spirituality. supernaturalism. almost 'human nature'.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2011-04-03 05:48:36
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6934|USA

Uzique wrote:

not necessarily... depending on the tribe... and that isn't 'religion'. that's spirituality. supernaturalism. almost 'human nature'.
gotta disagree be it a stick, a rock, the sun, or a man in a flowing white robe, or the great spirit, if a society believes in the same thing and acts according to what is supposed to bring fortune, or healthy crops outside their own efforts etc.... It is a religion, right?
2011-04-03 05:59:36
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6282|...
lowing all you have to do is look at much of the animal kingdom. Lots of complex societies without the involvement of any sort of religion. Religion at some point can become overbearing, if we look at the inquisitions and such during the middle ages, but apart from that moment in time it's function has mostly been a supporting role.
inane little opines
2011-04-03 06:12:34
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6934|USA

Shocking wrote:

lowing all you have to do is look at much of the animal kingdom. Lots of complex societies without the involvement of any sort of religion. Religion at some point can become overbearing, if we look at the inquisitions and such during the middle ages, but apart from that moment in time it's function has mostly been a supporting role.
Not sure the animal kingdom is functioning with a govt. either. No govt.

If we could keep it on a human level here, has there ever been a govt. that was not steeped in any form of religion?
2011-04-03 06:17:36
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6753
i don't know what you mean by 'govt.' societal arrangements pre-date 'government'. sociological structures came before an official governance. religion is secondary to this... early tribes didn't collectivize together and build villages because they were 'steeped in religion'. the local shaman or seer or whatever was a superstitious, supernatural influence. the villages and tribes didn't form because they wanted to commune around the said superstition. it's a bonus on top of the basic organizing forces, i.e. economic and socio-political dependency.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2011-04-03 06:27:08
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6934|USA

Uzique wrote:

i don't know what you mean by 'govt.' societal arrangements pre-date 'government'. sociological structures came before an official governance. religion is secondary to this... early tribes didn't collectivize together and build villages because they were 'steeped in religion'. the local shaman or seer or whatever was a superstitious, supernatural influence. the villages and tribes didn't form because they wanted to commune around the said superstition. it's a bonus on top of the basic organizing forces, i.e. economic and socio-political dependency.
They could have come together and collectivized due to a shared common belief though. Again, I will need an example of any form of govt. (in the context of this discussion) that ruled without a religious base. I can not think of one.
2011-04-03 06:34:09
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,816|6389|eXtreme to the maX

11 Bravo wrote:

i didnt join to spread peace and democracy but lol now all those places want democracy so.........

so dont say "you guys" when you have no clue wtf you are talking about.  sit down, troll.
By 'peace and democracy' I assumed everyone here knew I meant death, depleted uranium and capitalism.

College money is fair enough, bad luck on not having socialism I guess.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2011-04-03 06:35:45)

Fuck Israel
2011-04-03 06:38:34
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6934|USA

Dilbert_X wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:

i didnt join to spread peace and democracy but lol now all those places want democracy so.........

so dont say "you guys" when you have no clue wtf you are talking about.  sit down, troll.
By 'peace and democracy' I assumed everyone here knew I meant death, depleted uranium and capitalism.

College money is fair enough, bad luck on not having socialism I guess.
Yes, because why work and pay for your own shit when you can get someone else to work and pay it for you?
2011-04-03 06:39:31
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,816|6389|eXtreme to the maX

lowing wrote:

Uzique wrote:

i don't know what you mean by 'govt.' societal arrangements pre-date 'government'. sociological structures came before an official governance. religion is secondary to this... early tribes didn't collectivize together and build villages because they were 'steeped in religion'. the local shaman or seer or whatever was a superstitious, supernatural influence. the villages and tribes didn't form because they wanted to commune around the said superstition. it's a bonus on top of the basic organizing forces, i.e. economic and socio-political dependency.
They could have come together and collectivized due to a shared common belief though. Again, I will need an example of any form of govt. (in the context of this discussion) that ruled without a religious base. I can not think of one.
Any warlord or royal family, they ruled through power, not religion.

eg Genghis Khan
"Genghis Khan's religion is widely speculated to be Shamanism or Tengriism, which was very likely among nomadic Mongol-Turkic tribes of Central Asia. But he was very tolerant religiously, and interested in learning philosophical and moral lessons from other religions. To do so, he consulted Buddhist monks, Christian missionaries, Muslim merchants, and the Taoist monk Qiu Chuji."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genghis_Khan#Religion

So one particular religion was not all that important.
Fuck Israel
2011-04-03 06:43:59
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5520|Cleveland, Ohio

lowing wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:

i didnt join to spread peace and democracy but lol now all those places want democracy so.........

so dont say "you guys" when you have no clue wtf you are talking about.  sit down, troll.
By 'peace and democracy' I assumed everyone here knew I meant death, depleted uranium and capitalism.

College money is fair enough, bad luck on not having socialism I guess.
Yes, because why work and pay for your own shit when you can get someone else to work and pay it for you?
id rather pay for my stuff, dogbert.

Last edited by 11 Bravo (2011-04-03 06:44:24)

2011-04-03 06:46:42
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6934|USA

Dilbert_X wrote:

lowing wrote:

Uzique wrote:

i don't know what you mean by 'govt.' societal arrangements pre-date 'government'. sociological structures came before an official governance. religion is secondary to this... early tribes didn't collectivize together and build villages because they were 'steeped in religion'. the local shaman or seer or whatever was a superstitious, supernatural influence. the villages and tribes didn't form because they wanted to commune around the said superstition. it's a bonus on top of the basic organizing forces, i.e. economic and socio-political dependency.
They could have come together and collectivized due to a shared common belief though. Again, I will need an example of any form of govt. (in the context of this discussion) that ruled without a religious base. I can not think of one.
Any warlord or royal family, they ruled through power, not religion.

eg Genghis Khan
"Genghis Khan's religion is widely speculated to be Shamanism or Tengriism, which was very likely among nomadic Mongol-Turkic tribes of Central Asia. But he was very tolerant religiously, and interested in learning philosophical and moral lessons from other religions. To do so, he consulted Buddhist monks, Christian missionaries, Muslim merchants, and the Taoist monk Qiu Chuji."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genghis_Khan#Religion

So one particular religion was not all that important.
but religion was present right?
2011-04-03 06:47:11
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,816|6389|eXtreme to the maX

lowing wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:

i didnt join to spread peace and democracy but lol now all those places want democracy so.........

so dont say "you guys" when you have no clue wtf you are talking about.  sit down, troll.
By 'peace and democracy' I assumed everyone here knew I meant death, depleted uranium and capitalism.

College money is fair enough, bad luck on not having socialism I guess.
Yes, because why work and pay for your own shit when you can get someone else to work and pay it for you?
Yeah usm, lowing has a point, why did you take socialised education when you could have been a man and not gone to college?

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2011-04-03 06:47:30)

Fuck Israel
2011-04-03 06:48:40
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,816|6389|eXtreme to the maX

lowing wrote:

but religion was present right?
Doesn't mean he had a religious base though.
Fuck Israel
2011-04-03 07:20:32
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5520|Cleveland, Ohio

Dilbert_X wrote:

lowing wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

By 'peace and democracy' I assumed everyone here knew I meant death, depleted uranium and capitalism.

College money is fair enough, bad luck on not having socialism I guess.
Yes, because why work and pay for your own shit when you can get someone else to work and pay it for you?
Yeah usm, lowing has a point, why did you take socialised education when you could have been a man and not gone to college?
not rly socialized.  i had to invest a bit of money into it.  oh and had to work for it.  thats not socialized.  thats called a benefit.

troll more?

Last edited by 11 Bravo (2011-04-03 07:20:59)

2011-04-03 07:35:22
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5641|London, England

Uzique wrote:

don't 99% of troops sign up for money and a career cause they have no other opportunities? k
There are 3 million people in the military and 3 million different reasons for signing up.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-04-03 07:41:51
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5641|London, England

lowing wrote:

Uzique wrote:

Jay wrote:


They aren't the same. If a football player wears the same underwear every game of the season because he believes it brings him luck that's a superstition. A religion is an organized set of beliefs which are applied universally to all adherents.

If that football player convinced his entire team to wear the same pairs of underwear all season for luck, that would be a subsect of religion, like a cult. The only real difference between a cult and a religion is the level of organization and the number of adherents.
"political agency".

not agenda, lowing. agency. agency in philosophy is a capacity to act and enact.
I meant what I posted, and I understood what he said, I was referring to the political agenda set out by the religion. To gain more power, more control, more land more wealth.

So again, when I spoke of religion in this portion of the discuss with you guys, I did not have that in mind. I was thinking way more basic. A belief system that included forces beyond the control of humanity where morality might have been developed. Still can not think of a single govt. that existed without some form of religion behind it.
Uhh... the USSR abolished religion. So did every other Communist nation.

"Still can not tink of a single govt." Uhh, the times in human history where religion was pulling the strings behind the curtain are the exception rather than the rule. Does religion normally exist in any given country? Yes. But I don't understand why you can't separate religion and government in your mind. Our country today is secular. There are a million and one religions in this country but the only power that religion has over our government is the social conservative voting bloc. That's it. We don't have prayer in school, Obama stopped that national day of prayer bs, etc.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-04-03 07:42:40
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6958|Canberra, AUS
They brought it back during WWII, didn't they? Don't remember if it was temporary though.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2011-04-03 07:44:20
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5641|London, England

lowing wrote:

Uzique wrote:

well how do you define 'government'? a political power structure? tribes are a form of (self) government.
Any organized society that have set moral guidelines they follow. I would include tribes, since tribes have "chiefs", "elders" etc....

I do not see how you can have a govt. without a rule of law or moral code established. and for me the question becomes where did that moral code derive
A moral code? Then you mean law.

You are correct. Any system of government requires two basic pillars to be considered government: a justice system and a system for common defense. Anything else is window dressing. Those two are the foundation.

lowing, you might be surprised to find out that in most cases in human history, secular law came first and was implemented via religion. Egyptian Pharaohs were considered gods as well as kings. Instead of standing before their people as king and demanding obedience, they simply took the form of a god and threatened people in that way. Threatening people's lives only has so much effect. Threatening their eternal soul or whatever tends to scare people quite a bit more.

A more modern example would be what Henry VIII did. He wanted a divorce (several) and the Catholic Church wouldn't grant him an annulment so he told the Pope to piss off and made himself the head of the Church of England. I wonder if he granted himself his divorces.

So they both get their way and use religion as a tool to get it. I'm fairly certain that Henry VIII didn't give a fig about religion otherwise.

Last edited by Jay (2011-04-03 07:56:24)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-04-03 07:47:26
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5641|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

lowing wrote:

but religion was present right?
Doesn't mean he had a religious base though.
Or that his religion was at all important.

I think lowing is trying to find a reason to stop being an atheist. He'll be a Born Again by next week.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

 

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 … 13

Board footer

Privacy Policy - © 2025 Jeff Minard