What about oral sex? Is that a failure too?HaiBai wrote:
nah, those are just failures. wearing a condom while having sex is also a failure. those kids just don't quite make it. but you can't save them all, can you?Turquoise wrote:
I guess there's an awful lot of involuntary manslaughter out there (miscarriages and all).HaiBai wrote:
a child is created when a man and women have sex
What do you expect when you come out with ridiculous statements you moron. Oh & by the way I speak as I said earlier as the father of two young children & I still believe in pro choice. I also have a greater understanding of that choice because it has been put before me & my girlfriend. You & hai have perfect ideals, seriously come back in a few years when you have more life experience. Also these pro life idiots how dare you try to tell people how they should live there lives. If all the women that wanted abortions were unable to they should then give them to pro lifers let them bring up the kids, watch as the care bills for the government sky rocket as there is a huge & unwanted population explosion in the US. Shit Lowing would have a field day lol.-Sh1fty- wrote:
You're a laugh. I'm following your "Adult" reasoning here, not my "Childish" thought process.Monkey Spanker wrote:
Go away the adults are talking.-Sh1fty- wrote:
There's a kid in the other room (I'm living at my grandparents, they run a daycare) and the little baby is only a year old or so. He is a kid that was put up for adoption, the parents didn't want him.
He doesn't have a conscious, supposedly, and the parents didn't want him so can I take my grandma's massive frying pan and whack the kid over the head really hard? I promise he won't feel a thing.
fucking sickos
The justification for murder here each time has revolved around the excuses of underdevelopment, unwanted, no conscious, and no pain. This kid isn't an adult, he isn't fully developed, he wasn't wanted of his parents, he doesn't seem very conscious, and I assure you I can kill him without him suffering.
Quote of the year so far "Fifa 11 on the other hand... shiny things for mongos "-mtb0minime
No that is pure WINTurquoise wrote:
What about oral sex? Is that a failure too?HaiBai wrote:
nah, those are just failures. wearing a condom while having sex is also a failure. those kids just don't quite make it. but you can't save them all, can you?Turquoise wrote:
I guess there's an awful lot of involuntary manslaughter out there (miscarriages and all).
Quote of the year so far "Fifa 11 on the other hand... shiny things for mongos "-mtb0minime
Humans are essentially animals, I don't see why a living, breathing genetically 100% human baby outside of the womb should not be considered human. Sure, it may not have consciousness as soon as it comes out of the womb but it sure as hell has WAY more functions than a 24 weeks old fetus - which defines it as being human, that it has acquired and uses every single function we have. Consciousness being a mental state which we haven't been able to pinpoint - many, many animals, by the way, have consciousness as well although in varying levels.Blue Herring wrote:
Nor does a baby. Even it's more developed functions are shared among mammals and most other animals as well.
I was giving an easy comparison from our present day world to what a fetus is like when it's 24 weeks. I think it would've been better to say it this way; having a chassis doesn't mean it's a car. Senselessly killing animal life is a bit of a sick thing to do, they're already fully developed members of their species - so I don't feel its really okay to kill them, but ofcourse due to human bias there's not really going to be much outrage over someone who squashes a starfish thann compared to someone who tortures a dog. The jellyfish equation doesn't really hold up anymore when the fetus has developed into a baby, though.Blue Herring wrote:
Present tense. This is what I'm asking, if something is not presently conscious, is okay to kill? You haven't addressed that question(as far as I've seen).
The degree of development matters; the chassis thing.I can because I can't see a meaningful difference between it and a baby. Unless you're willing to concede a baby as "non-human" I'm afraid I can't come to that conclusion.
One more child to the orphan home, hey atleast he's alive and his mother can live with eternal guilt. But I guess that's the price the kid + she have to pay to appease to other's self righteousness. You don't just dispose of your kid after its been born ffs, a mother is genetically wired to nurture her kid - it's completely inside her system. Effectively torture to make her do something like that.I never forced her to keep it. She can always put it up for adoption. However, if you're asking me should we condone the ending of a conscious(I'll use that instead of murder) potential or otherwise, just to minimize suffering, no I don't. Her suffering is a direct result of her actions (with the exception of rape).
Last edited by Shocking (2011-03-28 15:30:24)
inane little opines
Its a very easy thing to have absolute opinions when you are a inexperienced kid. Also how the pope feels about this does not matter unless the demographic of the area affected by these laws is 100% christian.
yeah, now think back to the day where you were deciding whether to abort it. now think back today about your child. doesn't just thinking about the fact that you almost killed your child make you feel sick?Monkey Spanker wrote:
What do you expect when you come out with ridiculous statements you moron. Oh & by the way I speak as I said earlier as the father of two young children & I still believe in pro choice. I also have a greater understanding of that choice because it has been put before me & my girlfriend. You & hai have perfect ideals, seriously come back in a few years when you have more life experience. Also these pro life idiots how dare you try to tell people how they should live there lives. If all the women that wanted abortions were unable to they should then give them to pro lifers let them bring up the kids, watch as the care bills for the government sky rocket as there is a huge & unwanted population explosion in the US. Shit Lowing would have a field day lol.-Sh1fty- wrote:
You're a laugh. I'm following your "Adult" reasoning here, not my "Childish" thought process.Monkey Spanker wrote:
Go away the adults are talking.
The justification for murder here each time has revolved around the excuses of underdevelopment, unwanted, no conscious, and no pain. This kid isn't an adult, he isn't fully developed, he wasn't wanted of his parents, he doesn't seem very conscious, and I assure you I can kill him without him suffering.
Wearing shoes goes against nature, too, but we do that. The urge remains, but the necessity for widespread procreative sex is gone. Your argument is backing you into the old, old, incredibly old school belief that you shouldn't have sex except if you want a child.HaiBai wrote:
yes, we do have a natural urge to reproduce. that's the entire point of sex. that's why if you had sex, you shouldn't have an abortion. it goes against natureDesertFox- wrote:
Sex is a natural urge, though. As I said, we're animals. You have a natural urge to want to reproduce (in our case, do the act by which we reproduce because it feels good, luckily for us).
i already made that old school argument. that's what i believe. will i follow my belief? probably notDesertFox- wrote:
Wearing shoes goes against nature, too, but we do that. The urge remains, but the necessity for widespread procreative sex is gone. Your argument is backing you into the old, old, incredibly old school belief that you shouldn't have sex except if you want a child.HaiBai wrote:
yes, we do have a natural urge to reproduce. that's the entire point of sex. that's why if you had sex, you shouldn't have an abortion. it goes against natureDesertFox- wrote:
Sex is a natural urge, though. As I said, we're animals. You have a natural urge to want to reproduce (in our case, do the act by which we reproduce because it feels good, luckily for us).
But it's perfectly okay for people to spank the monkey, or not as a bad as recreational intercourse?
I thought warman and shifty were deeply religious but haibai takes the cake in that, also for being an irrational douchebag. The fuck do you know about the pain people go through during abortion? How does that even give you a valid argument?
grow the fuck up
grow the fuck up
inane little opines
only if you do it without any illicit fantasies
How do you masturbate without having illicit fantasies?
I call BS, then. There's no way you're reaching an orgasm by thinking about...I dunno---math or something.
lol, i am rational. there's nothing rational about killing babies. someone should feel worse about an abortion then they should raising the child.Shocking wrote:
I thought warman and shifty were deeply religious but haibai takes the cake in that, also for being an irrational douchebag. The fuck do you know about the pain people go through during abortion? How does that even give you a valid argument?
grow the fuck up
and if you feel bad about raising a child, you already have problems because in that case you don't love your own child.
you don't (unless wet dreams count?).DesertFox- wrote:
I call BS, then. There's no way you're reaching an orgasm by thinking about...I dunno---math or something.
You are the very definition of irrationality, how old are you anyway?HaiBai wrote:
lol, i am rational. there's nothing rational about killing babies. someone should feel worse about an abortion then they should raising the child.
and if you feel bad about raising a child, you already have problems because in that case you don't love your own child.
Your arguments are beyond stupid, only a ten year old could spout the bullshit you do.
inane little opines
NoHaiBai wrote:
yeah, now think back to the day where you were deciding whether to abort it. now think back today about your child. doesn't just thinking about the fact that you almost killed your child make you feel sick?Monkey Spanker wrote:
What do you expect when you come out with ridiculous statements you moron. Oh & by the way I speak as I said earlier as the father of two young children & I still believe in pro choice. I also have a greater understanding of that choice because it has been put before me & my girlfriend. You & hai have perfect ideals, seriously come back in a few years when you have more life experience. Also these pro life idiots how dare you try to tell people how they should live there lives. If all the women that wanted abortions were unable to they should then give them to pro lifers let them bring up the kids, watch as the care bills for the government sky rocket as there is a huge & unwanted population explosion in the US. Shit Lowing would have a field day lol.-Sh1fty- wrote:
You're a laugh. I'm following your "Adult" reasoning here, not my "Childish" thought process.
The justification for murder here each time has revolved around the excuses of underdevelopment, unwanted, no conscious, and no pain. This kid isn't an adult, he isn't fully developed, he wasn't wanted of his parents, he doesn't seem very conscious, and I assure you I can kill him without him suffering.
Quote of the year so far "Fifa 11 on the other hand... shiny things for mongos "-mtb0minime
Leave me out of his fantasies thank youDesertFox- wrote:
But it's perfectly okay for people to spank the monkey, or not as a bad as recreational intercourse?
Quote of the year so far "Fifa 11 on the other hand... shiny things for mongos "-mtb0minime
I just suggest you save these posts for a few years, Hai. I probably would have written something rather similar when I was your age. I do suspect that your views on many things will be subject to change within the next five years or so.
I stopped going to church and being pro-life at 11, thank god I barely knew how to use the internet back then.
inane little opines
I'll try it tonight and get back to you.Macbeth wrote:
How do you masturbate without having illicit fantasies?
Shocking wrote:
let's play a game; which one is the human fetus?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
From a literal standpoint, yes. However, there is a difference. Animals have never through their own thought and usage gone to space. If you wanna talk about how similar animals are to humans, I agree with you, I agree more so than most scientists, however, there is a difference that even you must see, since you've used animal metaphors for comparison earlier.Shocking wrote:
Humans are essentially animals,
I'm sure you mean 100% developed since even a fetus has 100% human genes. But even then, technically speaking, we're not fully developed when we're babies. We actually continue development until adulthood. We continue to change our whole lives but less because of development and more because of deterioration.I don't see why a living, breathing genetically 100% human baby outside of the womb should not be considered human.
I agree as well, Perhaps a sapient being is a better statement. But then, babies certainly are not sapient. They can't perceive wisdom anymore than any animal. The argument certainty and most obviously is about what defines human life.Sure, it may not have consciousness as soon as it comes out of the womb but it sure as hell has WAY more functions than a 24 weeks old fetus
- which defines it as being human, that it has acquired and uses every single function we have. Consciousness being a mental state which we haven't been able to pinpoint - many, many animals, by the way, have consciousness as well although in varying levels.
Fair enough, though that doesn't quite answer the question. Your whole point was that is isn't present conscious(sapience), even though it will be. My question was, does only present sapience matter?I was giving an easy comparison from our present day world to what a fetus is like when it's 24 weeks. I think it would've been better to say it this way; having a chassis doesn't mean it's a car. Senselessly killing animal life is a bit of a sick thing to do, they're already fully developed members of their species - so I don't feel its really okay to kill them, but ofcourse due to human bias there's not really going to be much outrage over someone who squashes a starfish thann compared to someone who tortures a dog. The jellyfish equation doesn't really hold up anymore when the fetus has developed into a baby, though.
A chassis will never be a car unless we actively make it one, and the difference between a chassis and a car is about on par with a child and an adult. By that I mean they're both very different. It's the difference between action and inaction. You don't kill every person who dies every day because you failed to help them, and you don't stop cars from being made because you choose not to make them. Rather, by ending the fetus, we actively stop it from developing fully.The degree of development matters; the chassis thing.
I'm sorry but she put herself in that situation. The child has a right to a chance at life, it didn't do anything wrong, and no number of paragraphs trying to make me feel guilty will change that this occurrence was a direct consequence of her action which she was fully aware of when she had sex. Its no more self-righteous than any other law meant to protect the vulnerable. What IS going to change that is an actual explanation of why the innocent should have to pay for the sake of the guilty.One more child to the orphan home, hey atleast he's alive and his mother can live with eternal guilt. But I guess that's the price the kid + she have to pay to appease to other's self righteousness. You don't just dispose of your kid after its been born ffs, a mother is genetically wired to nurture her kid - it's completely inside her system. Effectively torture to make her do something like that.
They don't, that's bullshit spread by pro-life activists.HaiBai wrote:
lol, you realize that when "fetuses" are being aborted, the "fetus" can grab onto the doctor's finger? doctors say it's basically a strength test.Shocking wrote:
Babies are aware of their surroundings, emotionally active and (physically) responsive - can recognize its mother and trusts it, needs to be nurtured.. etc - a born baby is very much alive and human.HaiBai wrote:
why not if you can kill them painlessly? if they haven't developed a conscience, it would be the same as killing fetuses. (or fetii?)
would you like to revise your statement?
if anyone saw that