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2011-03-14 19:11:43
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6670|'Murka

Jenspm wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Jenspm wrote:


Yeah, I'm against that as well (as mentioned somewhere earlier).
But there are some who cannot be rehabilitated.

What then?

And yeah...cba to read all those pages...
It is the sad truth that some people might never be fit to leave prison, but that should be a running evaluation rather than a decision taken when they're 20. No-one is in the position to say that someone "will never change", in my opinion.
Some actions/decisions render one unrecoverable/irredeemable, regardless of the "progress" made afterward. It's a sad fact of life.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2011-03-14 20:21:13
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6910|USA

Jenspm wrote:

lowing wrote:

Varegg wrote:

Not drawing any conclusions at all, just saying that others have already ...

There are studies that concludes the above mentioned in addition with countries that have a high millitary activity also have a higher murder rate ...
.........and we are talking about deterrence. All I keep hearing is how the death penalty is not a deterrence. Well if deterrence is the goal, and the death penalty is not a deterrence, and neither is a conscience, what is? Ya see, I want to punish the fucker, everyone else keeps mentioning deterrence, fine, so what is a deterrence?
Basically, it is generally accepted that prison/capital punishment has three objectives:

1) Remove a potential threat from society
2) Work to avoid the criminal from repeating his offense
3) Work as a deterrent

In working as a deterrent, it is meant to instill some sort of "fear of the law", make you afraid of committing a crime because of the consequences.

The death penalty quite obviously covers all three points: the threat is removed, he cannot repeat his offense (seeing as he's, well, dead) and the threat of death should, in theory, scare people off from killing people.

However, the debate goes to whether or not the death penalty is a better alternative to punishing people than prison. And seeing as there is a general idea that we'd rather not kill people, the debate falls upon whether or not it works better as a deterrent than prison - being "just as good" doesn't quite cut it.

Now, that's a debate that has no definite answer, but there are several arguments against its effectiveness. Case studies show that there is little difference in homicide rates between extremely similar states where one has the death penalty and one doesn't. Furthermore, there has been little to no change in the rate of murders when states have gone away from the death penalty or re-installed it. Obviously there is no concrete answer to this, but if it is true that the death penalty doesn't work better as a deterrent than prison - why should we kill them? Wouldn't it then be better to give them a chance to contribute to society and do something positive with their lives?

The only points I can see to that question are ideas of justice, eye for an eye and closure for the victims. I've already pointed out my views on that - I think it's silly, primitive and a waste of human resources. The crime is done, and we sit there with two options. 1) Kill him. 2) Put him in prison, and help him back into society to contribute.

I don't know about you, but it seems to me that we'd be much better off with the latter. And we avoid killing someone, hurray.
I read with great interest until I got to the last paragraph and sentence.  In murder cases, I take the opinion if the murder can not be undone, neither can the punishment, regardless of them "coming to Jesus".

I will also add, I do not think murder should be the only capital crime. Rape and child molestation should also be included as capital crimes.

Very case selective, but there is some damage that can not be undone even if left alive, by time.
2011-03-15 02:29:43
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7069|Nårvei

lowing wrote:

You keep speaking of deterrence, are you looking for a deterrence for crime in our prison system or not? If so what might that be? A direct question
I have given my opinion on that earlier as mention several times now ...

I could prolly rant about the why and how this and that explains it but that would only be seen as another "hate America" post so I'll leave it ...

What you could do lowing is make some studies and try to grasp why you have such high crime rates in general, why so many murders ... is it a lack of respect of human life in general?

Maybe the "get the fuck off my lawn" attitude is so deeply rooted in your society that it makes the death penalty as a deterrence useless ...

You have the highest murder rates and you have the highest incarceration rates in the world, there must be a reason for that no?
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2011-03-15 02:32:09
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6365|eXtreme to the maX

lowing wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Its pretty hard to deter someone from committing a crime if they've already committed it.
Ya think?

How about using people that have committed crimes as an example to others, or to keep people from committing crimes again. Ya know, like I said
Because, as you've been shown, it doesn't apparently have any useful effect.

Varegg wrote:

You have the highest murder rates and you have the highest incarceration rates in the world, there must be a reason for that no?
Also they have the death penalty.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2011-03-15 02:33:11)

Fuck Israel
2011-03-15 02:44:35
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6910|USA

Varegg wrote:

lowing wrote:

You keep speaking of deterrence, are you looking for a deterrence for crime in our prison system or not? If so what might that be? A direct question
I have given my opinion on that earlier as mention several times now ...

I could prolly rant about the why and how this and that explains it but that would only be seen as another "hate America" post so I'll leave it ...

What you could do lowing is make some studies and try to grasp why you have such high crime rates in general, why so many murders ... is it a lack of respect of human life in general?

Maybe the "get the fuck off my lawn" attitude is so deeply rooted in your society that it makes the death penalty as a deterrence useless ...

You have the highest murder rates and you have the highest incarceration rates in the world, there must be a reason for that no?
Your answer is ambiguous and vague to me. In my opinion we are talking about 2 different issues? The issue I am addressing is, what can be done as a deterrence to "scare" people enough to never want to risk going to jail or going back to jail? Crime rates, gun ownership is a different issue, if you want to link them then I will say there really isn't any deterrence harsh enough to meet that goal.
2011-03-15 02:47:55
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6910|USA

Dilbert_X wrote:

lowing wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Its pretty hard to deter someone from committing a crime if they've already committed it.
Ya think?

How about using people that have committed crimes as an example to others, or to keep people from committing crimes again. Ya know, like I said
Because, as you've been shown, it doesn't apparently have any useful effect.

Varegg wrote:

You have the highest murder rates and you have the highest incarceration rates in the world, there must be a reason for that no?
Also they have the death penalty.
Not "as I have been shown", as I have pointed out!

It is YOU and others who keep arguing the "death penalty is not a deterrence", I have never used deterrence in my arguments. So if deterrence is an important issue to you, what is a deterrence to someone who does not value innocent life enough, to keep from taking it?
2011-03-15 03:31:48
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7069|Nårvei

lowing wrote:

Varegg wrote:

lowing wrote:

You keep speaking of deterrence, are you looking for a deterrence for crime in our prison system or not? If so what might that be? A direct question
I have given my opinion on that earlier as mention several times now ...

I could prolly rant about the why and how this and that explains it but that would only be seen as another "hate America" post so I'll leave it ...

What you could do lowing is make some studies and try to grasp why you have such high crime rates in general, why so many murders ... is it a lack of respect of human life in general?

Maybe the "get the fuck off my lawn" attitude is so deeply rooted in your society that it makes the death penalty as a deterrence useless ...

You have the highest murder rates and you have the highest incarceration rates in the world, there must be a reason for that no?
Your answer is ambiguous and vague to me. In my opinion we are talking about 2 different issues? The issue I am addressing is, what can be done as a deterrence to "scare" people enough to never want to risk going to jail or going back to jail? Crime rates, gun ownership is a different issue, if you want to link them then I will say there really isn't any deterrence harsh enough to meet that goal.
Lets look at it through an analogy lowing ... would you rather put out a fire or prevent a fire from happening?
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2011-03-15 03:38:48
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6910|USA

Varegg wrote:

lowing wrote:

Varegg wrote:


I have given my opinion on that earlier as mention several times now ...

I could prolly rant about the why and how this and that explains it but that would only be seen as another "hate America" post so I'll leave it ...

What you could do lowing is make some studies and try to grasp why you have such high crime rates in general, why so many murders ... is it a lack of respect of human life in general?

Maybe the "get the fuck off my lawn" attitude is so deeply rooted in your society that it makes the death penalty as a deterrence useless ...

You have the highest murder rates and you have the highest incarceration rates in the world, there must be a reason for that no?
Your answer is ambiguous and vague to me. In my opinion we are talking about 2 different issues? The issue I am addressing is, what can be done as a deterrence to "scare" people enough to never want to risk going to jail or going back to jail? Crime rates, gun ownership is a different issue, if you want to link them then I will say there really isn't any deterrence harsh enough to meet that goal.
Lets look at it through an analogy lowing ... would you rather put out a fire or prevent a fire from happening?
If you want to use an analogy of that sort. The question is, what do you do to the arson on behalf of his victims after the fire is lit, and how do you keep the arson from starting another fire?

but to directly answer your question yes I would rather not see the fire set in the first place, however, regardless of that desire, fires will never be prevented, so again, what do you do with the arsonist?
2011-03-15 04:14:08
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|6940|Disaster Free Zone
TBH Varegg I don't know what the hell you are on about. At least I can understand what Lowing is saying, I disagree with his conclusions but at least it makes sense.
2011-03-15 04:51:34
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6365|eXtreme to the maX

lowing wrote:

what is a deterrence to someone who does not value innocent life enough, to keep from taking it?
Why not look at how other countries achieve low crime rates instead of dreaming up new punishments for criminals - which clearly aren't effective in deterring crime if being put to death or life in prison being butt-raped by black men don't do the job.

But lowing wants to get a kick out of torturing arsonists when its more effective to save lives by installing smoke detectors.
Fuck Israel
2011-03-15 05:02:54
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7069|Nårvei

DrunkFace wrote:

TBH Varegg I don't know what the hell you are on about. At least I can understand what Lowing is saying, I disagree with his conclusions but at least it makes sense.
In the utmost direct manner lowing makes sense IF you entirely disgard the reason for people doing murder, setting fires or whatever ... as usual we are more concerned about the punishment than preventive work ... that's what I'm on about ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2011-03-15 05:13:40
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6365|eXtreme to the maX

Varegg wrote:

DrunkFace wrote:

TBH Varegg I don't know what the hell you are on about. At least I can understand what Lowing is saying, I disagree with his conclusions but at least it makes sense.
In the utmost direct manner lowing makes sense IF you entirely disgard the reason for people doing murder, setting fires or whatever ... as usual we are more concerned about the punishment than preventive work ... that's what I'm on about ...
"If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about the answers." - Thomas Pynchon
Seems like they don't have to worry with lowing.
Fuck Israel
2011-03-15 05:26:39
UnkleRukus
That Guy
+236|5295|Massachusetts, USA

Dilbert_X wrote:

lowing wrote:

what is a deterrence to someone who does not value innocent life enough, to keep from taking it?
Why not look at how other countries achieve low crime rates instead of dreaming up new punishments for criminals - which clearly aren't effective in deterring crime if being put to death or life in prison being butt-raped by black men don't do the job.

But lowing wants to get a kick out of torturing arsonists when its more effective to save lives by installing smoke detectors.
I think you fail to realize that not every citizen in every country is the same.

Also the topic isn't about arsonists burning buildings down. It was brought up about parents and family members brutally murdering their children, if you read the OP and the articles posting you would know that. How do you prevent that? How do you know how a parent turns out 6-7 years down the line into parent hood? You don't which is why you need a strong deterrent to sickening murders.

I may not agree with lowings ideals 100% of the time, but them man does provide some actual information to his arguments.
If the women don't find ya handsome. They should at least find ya handy.
2011-03-15 05:50:22
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
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Well rukus ... you really can't debate that without considering the underlying reasons ... what makes parents brutally murder their children even though you have such a strong deterrent as you may think the death penalty is?

I don't think the answer is even close to what you mention when you say not every citizen in every country is the same ... what trigger that specific behaviour? ... does the death penalty prevent other parents from doing the same?

I never claimed to hold all the answers to all questions, I just share my opinion in the different debates just like you do ... but when sharing my opinion I have ensured myself to study a tad of information concerning the issue at hand, it's quite obvious that some doesn't go beyond the headlines ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2011-03-15 06:23:15
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6801|Texas - Bigger than France

lowing wrote:

Not "as I have been shown", as I have pointed out!

It is YOU and others who keep arguing the "death penalty is not a deterrence", I have never used deterrence in my arguments. So if deterrence is an important issue to you, what is a deterrence to someone who does not value innocent life enough, to keep from taking it?
Its quite simple, actually.

1) Some people consider death penalty to be a deterrence
2) Some people consider life in prison to be a deterrence
3) Some people consider both the death penalty and life in prison to be a deterrence
4) Some people will kill either way.

So, basic logic.  If the population is larger with a menu of options than it is with only one option...

So by arguing one over the other, you are decreasing the deterrent for murder.
2011-03-15 06:30:08
Stubbee
Religions Hate Facts, Questions and Doubts
+223|7002|Reality
It would be a deterrent for normal, sane people.

People who commit these kinds of acts are NOT normal, not sane. Murder is not a rational thing to do.
So how is any deterrent going to work for people who just don't connect emotionally and psychologically with society?
Do you make people take a test? especially before procreation? That would be a very disturbing precedent.

I know we have had this discussion lowing but you JUST don't get it. Science is not infallible, people certainly are not. People interpret science. Ergo science can ( and has been missinterpreted) and is STILL being misinterpreted.

And worst : many convictions are based NOT on the science but motive, opportunity, circumstantial evidence. All things that the prosecution can use to outspin the defense arguments. Prosecutors not all CARE about guilt/innocence, they care about winning the case, padding their portfolio for future public office.

There are too many holes/cracks in the system. Innocent people will be executed. How can any moral and ethical human allow INNOCENT people to be killed for the sake of closure or society? How will the original victims families react to the knowledge that their blood lust MURDERED another innocent person and ruined ANOTHER family? HOW IS THAT CLOSURE?

ffs lowing are you some sort of time traveler from the dark ages?

do you acknowledge that the justice system is imperfect, flawed?
do you acknowledge that some people are wrongly convicted for their crimes?
do you acknowledge that science is not perfect?

a YES to any of these questions should mean that you acknowledge that capital punishment is WRONG. It is that simple.

PS
How long do you wait before executing someone?
If you answer anything longer that 10 minutes than what does that say to your assertion that capital cases are somehow always magically iron clad. If they are judged guilty, why wait? Why not have the execution chamber in the courthouse? Sort of sounds like the good ole wild west doesn't?

Last edited by Stubbee (2011-03-15 06:30:50)

The US economy is a giant Ponzi scheme. And 'to big to fail' is code speak for 'niahnahniahniahnah 99 percenters'
2011-03-15 07:01:13
UnkleRukus
That Guy
+236|5295|Massachusetts, USA
Okay, so if capital punnishment is wrong and these people are too insane to be rehabilitated (how many life sentence winners do you see being rehabilitated) then what do you do with them? I may not be the smartest person here but I'm willing to take in both sides of the argument here. Just as long as the arguments are well concieved and just.
If the women don't find ya handsome. They should at least find ya handy.
2011-03-15 07:13:57
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6801|Texas - Bigger than France
Rukus must die
2011-03-15 07:28:19
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7069|Nårvei

UnkleRukus wrote:

Okay, so if capital punnishment is wrong and these people are too insane to be rehabilitated (how many life sentence winners do you see being rehabilitated) then what do you do with them? I may not be the smartest person here but I'm willing to take in both sides of the argument here. Just as long as the arguments are well concieved and just.
Keep them in jail until they are rehabilitated, if they can't be rehabilitated they will never be released ...

My opinion against capital punishment can be found in previous posts in this thread ... and life imprisonment is really the only other option, either in a normal prison or a mental institution ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2011-03-15 07:38:41
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5496|Cleveland, Ohio
send them to aussie land.  problem solved.
2011-03-15 07:55:55
presidentsheep
Back to the Fuhrer
+208|6220|Places 'n such
Worked for us.
I'd type my pc specs out all fancy again but teh mods would remove it. Again.
2011-03-15 09:03:05
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|6940|Disaster Free Zone

11 Bravo wrote:

send them to aussie land.  problem solved.
The British made that mistake 200 years ago, and you want to copy them?
2011-03-15 09:12:24
UnkleRukus
That Guy
+236|5295|Massachusetts, USA

Varegg wrote:

UnkleRukus wrote:

Okay, so if capital punnishment is wrong and these people are too insane to be rehabilitated (how many life sentence winners do you see being rehabilitated) then what do you do with them? I may not be the smartest person here but I'm willing to take in both sides of the argument here. Just as long as the arguments are well concieved and just.
Keep them in jail until they are rehabilitated, if they can't be rehabilitated they will never be released ...

My opinion against capital punishment can be found in previous posts in this thread ... and life imprisonment is really the only other option, either in a normal prison or a mental institution ...
I wouldn't be against that, as long as probation was out of the question for them. However for especially heinous crimes I would want them dead.
If the women don't find ya handsome. They should at least find ya handy.
2011-03-15 09:19:11
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|6940|Disaster Free Zone
In many ways so would I, but I can't trust the justice system enough to allow the government to deal with things so absolute.
2011-03-15 10:21:41
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6910|USA
I read all the arguments since my last post, please understand, I am not mentioning deterrence as my reasoning for the death penalty. Deterrence is YOUR argument AGAINST the death penalty.  So if deterrence is supposed to be the magical formula for crime prevention, why do you all still have murders?

I also like the argument that any real deterrence would be considered by normal sane people. Anyone willing to kill innocent people is hardly normal or sane, so why the hang up on deterrence if it isn't going to deter anyone mentally unstable?

As far as the argument about innocent people being put to death:

If your big concern is really innocent people being put to death, and maintain life in prison is WORSE than death, based on your logic, we shouldn't  punish anyone because there is never 100% certainty about their guilt. and certainly never for life, "since life in prison is worse that death "( I disagree with that by the way, Yes, there are iron clad cases)

Last edited by lowing (2011-03-15 10:33:25)

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