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Topic closed

2011-03-13 06:25:44
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6934|Canberra, AUS

Jenspm wrote:

lowing wrote:

Jenspm wrote:

A life has been taken, what does it help to take yet another one?

edit - Re: burnzz
The point isn't to help anything. The point is to remove a murderer who has forfeited their right to live by taking another's life.
So we're now killing a man for no good? If it doesn't help anything, why should we?

Spark wrote:

Jenspm wrote:

Yes, that person has wasted someone else's life already, but what does it help to waste his? You're only doubling the damage.
And you're not wasting his by locking him up in jail?

Some people are beyond rehabilitation. Some people do not deserve rehabilitation, out of respect for the victims.
Who's to decide who deserves rehabilitation and who doesn't - who's to say 'you can live, but you can't'? The government? Does it get to decide who has the freedom of speech as well? I can trust my government with a lot, but I'm not about to give them a loaded gun and the right to kill.

And killing people 'out of respect of the victims'? Really? Are we going to end someone's life to satisfy a few people's savage craving for revenge?
Read the post properly. I said that some people are beyond rehabilitation. That could mean life in jail.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2011-03-13 06:29:13
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6910|USA

Spark wrote:

Jenspm wrote:

lowing wrote:

Jenspm wrote:

A life has been taken, what does it help to take yet another one?

edit - Re: burnzz
The point isn't to help anything. The point is to remove a murderer who has forfeited their right to live by taking another's life.
So we're now killing a man for no good? If it doesn't help anything, why should we?

Spark wrote:


And you're not wasting his by locking him up in jail?

Some people are beyond rehabilitation. Some people do not deserve rehabilitation, out of respect for the victims.
Who's to decide who deserves rehabilitation and who doesn't - who's to say 'you can live, but you can't'? The government? Does it get to decide who has the freedom of speech as well? I can trust my government with a lot, but I'm not about to give them a loaded gun and the right to kill.

And killing people 'out of respect of the victims'? Really? Are we going to end someone's life to satisfy a few people's savage craving for revenge?
Read the post properly. I said that some people are beyond rehabilitation. That could mean life in jail.
........but it doesn't
2011-03-13 06:31:20
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6934|Canberra, AUS
Life in jail without parole? No rehabilitation there, no risk to the community. In the end, the practical difference between life in jail and death is what makes you feel better, cost, and whether innocent people are killed.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2011-03-13 06:33:43
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6910|USA
Afraid this got lost in the shuffle so I will ask it again:


Got a question for all those who argue "life in prison is worse than death" crowd.

If that is true, and you are soooooo worried about killing an innocent person, by your argument, isn't imprisonment a worse punishment for the innocent as well? I mean, if you are sooooo worried about punishing an innocent person and all, why would you condemn an innocent person to a far greater punishment (according to you), than death?
2011-03-13 06:37:36
Jenspm
penis
+1,716|6991|St. Andrews / Oslo

Spark wrote:

Jenspm wrote:

Spark wrote:

And you're not wasting his by locking him up in jail?

Some people are beyond rehabilitation. Some people do not deserve rehabilitation, out of respect for the victims.
Who's to decide who deserves rehabilitation and who doesn't - who's to say 'you can live, but you can't'? The government? Does it get to decide who has the freedom of speech as well? I can trust my government with a lot, but I'm not about to give them a loaded gun and the right to kill.

And killing people 'out of respect of the victims'? Really? Are we going to end someone's life to satisfy a few people's savage craving for revenge?
Read the post properly. I said that some people are beyond rehabilitation. That could mean life in jail.
You also said that "Some people do not deserve rehabilitation, out of respect for the victims." That is what I responded to.

As for the rest of the post: jail does not have to be a waste of someone's life. Even if you are 'beyond rehabilitation', you can still function as a human being, develop thoughts, work, prove to yourself that you have a function in society without being 'released' into the public.
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/26774/flickricon.png https://twitter.com/phoenix/favicon.ico
2011-03-13 06:39:21
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6910|USA

Jenspm wrote:

Spark wrote:

Jenspm wrote:

Who's to decide who deserves rehabilitation and who doesn't - who's to say 'you can live, but you can't'? The government? Does it get to decide who has the freedom of speech as well? I can trust my government with a lot, but I'm not about to give them a loaded gun and the right to kill.

And killing people 'out of respect of the victims'? Really? Are we going to end someone's life to satisfy a few people's savage craving for revenge?
Read the post properly. I said that some people are beyond rehabilitation. That could mean life in jail.
You also said that "Some people do not deserve rehabilitation, out of respect for the victims." That is what I responded to.

As for the rest of the post: jail does not have to be a waste of someone's life. Even if you are 'beyond rehabilitation', you can still function as a human being, develop thoughts, work, prove to yourself that you have a function in society without being 'released' into the public.
and why would anyone care about a child molesters rapists, murderers ability to find their "self worth"? They found none in their victims.

you are one of those life is worse than death in prison prison folks, care to answer the question posted?

Last edited by lowing (2011-03-13 06:40:12)

2011-03-13 06:41:43
Jenspm
penis
+1,716|6991|St. Andrews / Oslo

lowing wrote:

Jenspm wrote:

Spark wrote:


Read the post properly. I said that some people are beyond rehabilitation. That could mean life in jail.
You also said that "Some people do not deserve rehabilitation, out of respect for the victims." That is what I responded to.

As for the rest of the post: jail does not have to be a waste of someone's life. Even if you are 'beyond rehabilitation', you can still function as a human being, develop thoughts, work, prove to yourself that you have a function in society without being 'released' into the public.
and why would anyone care about a child molesters rapists, murderers ability to find their "self worth"? They found none in their victims.
Because some of us believe that it is an irrevocable human right, no matter who you are or what you've done.
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/26774/flickricon.png https://twitter.com/phoenix/favicon.ico
2011-03-13 06:43:39
Jenspm
penis
+1,716|6991|St. Andrews / Oslo

lowing wrote:

you are one of those life is worse than death in prison prison folks, care to answer the question posted?
I'm not - I'd rather live in prison than die. At least, I hope I would, and I think that's what it should be. I cannot really comment on how it is today as I haven't experienced it, but it should be better than death.
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/26774/flickricon.png https://twitter.com/phoenix/favicon.ico
2011-03-13 06:46:17
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6934|Canberra, AUS

lowing wrote:

Afraid this got lost in the shuffle so I will ask it again:


Got a question for all those who argue "life in prison is worse than death" crowd.

If that is true, and you are soooooo worried about killing an innocent person, by your argument, isn't imprisonment a worse punishment for the innocent as well? I mean, if you are sooooo worried about punishing an innocent person and all, why would you condemn an innocent person to a far greater punishment (according to you), than death?
Well the problem is that whilst in prison you can appeal, have trials based on new evidence if it comes up etc. Death has a tendency to be somewhat final.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2011-03-13 06:47:35
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6910|USA

Jenspm wrote:

lowing wrote:

Jenspm wrote:


You also said that "Some people do not deserve rehabilitation, out of respect for the victims." That is what I responded to.

As for the rest of the post: jail does not have to be a waste of someone's life. Even if you are 'beyond rehabilitation', you can still function as a human being, develop thoughts, work, prove to yourself that you have a function in society without being 'released' into the public.
and why would anyone care about a child molesters rapists, murderers ability to find their "self worth"? They found none in their victims.
Because some of us believe that it is an irrevocable human right, no matter who you are or what you've done.
for human rights to apply, you would need to emulate humane behavior. It would also mean you hold a child molesters life as just a sacred as his victim. Surely you can understand the argument against that notion.
2011-03-13 06:48:59
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6910|USA

Jenspm wrote:

lowing wrote:

you are one of those life is worse than death in prison prison folks, care to answer the question posted?
I'm not - I'd rather live in prison than die. At least, I hope I would, and I think that's what it should be. I cannot really comment on how it is today as I haven't experienced it, but it should be better than death.
and that is why you do not deserve to live if you killed an innocent person. Precisely because life is better than death.
2011-03-13 06:49:52
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6910|USA

Spark wrote:

lowing wrote:

Afraid this got lost in the shuffle so I will ask it again:


Got a question for all those who argue "life in prison is worse than death" crowd.

If that is true, and you are soooooo worried about killing an innocent person, by your argument, isn't imprisonment a worse punishment for the innocent as well? I mean, if you are sooooo worried about punishing an innocent person and all, why would you condemn an innocent person to a far greater punishment (according to you), than death?
Well the problem is that whilst in prison you can appeal, have trials based on new evidence if it comes up etc. Death has a tendency to be somewhat final.
Well that would mean death IS worse than life in prison right? Ok well so much for that argument.
2011-03-13 06:55:45
Jenspm
penis
+1,716|6991|St. Andrews / Oslo

lowing wrote:

Jenspm wrote:

lowing wrote:


and why would anyone care about a child molesters rapists, murderers ability to find their "self worth"? They found none in their victims.
Because some of us believe that it is an irrevocable human right, no matter who you are or what you've done.
for human rights to apply, you would need to emulate humane behavior. It would also mean you hold a child molesters life as just a sacred as his victim. Surely you can understand the argument against that notion.
I understand the argument, but I disagree with it.

Although the victim may have been a better asset to society, and of higher value in that sense, the molester's right to life isn't of any less value than anyone else's - it can't be, it is, in my opinion, infinite - and no-one has the right to take it.

If faced with the choice of saving Ghandi or a child molester from a burning building? Ghandi.
If given a gun and a bullet, I'd kill neither.
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/26774/flickricon.png https://twitter.com/phoenix/favicon.ico
2011-03-13 07:02:26
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6910|USA

Jenspm wrote:

lowing wrote:

Jenspm wrote:


Because some of us believe that it is an irrevocable human right, no matter who you are or what you've done.
for human rights to apply, you would need to emulate humane behavior. It would also mean you hold a child molesters life as just a sacred as his victim. Surely you can understand the argument against that notion.
I understand the argument, but I disagree with it.

Although the victim may have been a better asset to society, and of higher value in that sense, the molester's right to life isn't of any less value than anyone else's - it can't be, it is, in my opinion, infinite - and no-one has the right to take it.

If faced with the choice of saving Ghandi or a child molester from a burning building? Ghandi.
If given a gun and a bullet, I'd kill neither.
well I already made my argument for life in prison, and it went ignored so I will tell you.

If life in prison means, life of routine, life of responsibility, life of complacency and comfort zone. That is not a punishment.. If you favor life in prison with anxiety, and turmoil, you have won me over for life in prison.

As I said before,  ex cons commit crimes for the sole purpose of going back to prison and their comfort zones. When life in prison really does become worse than death for criminals, and they fight to be executed instead of fight to stay alive, I will support life in prison.
2011-03-13 07:34:38
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6934|Canberra, AUS

lowing wrote:

Spark wrote:

lowing wrote:

Afraid this got lost in the shuffle so I will ask it again:


Got a question for all those who argue "life in prison is worse than death" crowd.

If that is true, and you are soooooo worried about killing an innocent person, by your argument, isn't imprisonment a worse punishment for the innocent as well? I mean, if you are sooooo worried about punishing an innocent person and all, why would you condemn an innocent person to a far greater punishment (according to you), than death?
Well the problem is that whilst in prison you can appeal, have trials based on new evidence if it comes up etc. Death has a tendency to be somewhat final.
Well that would mean death IS worse than life in prison right? Ok well so much for that argument.
It's not about one being worse than the other, it's about whether miscarriages of justice can be corrected.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2011-03-13 07:39:36
d4rkst4r
biggie smalls
+72|6712|Ontario, Canada

lowing wrote:

Jenspm wrote:

lowing wrote:


for human rights to apply, you would need to emulate humane behavior. It would also mean you hold a child molesters life as just a sacred as his victim. Surely you can understand the argument against that notion.
I understand the argument, but I disagree with it.

Although the victim may have been a better asset to society, and of higher value in that sense, the molester's right to life isn't of any less value than anyone else's - it can't be, it is, in my opinion, infinite - and no-one has the right to take it.

If faced with the choice of saving Ghandi or a child molester from a burning building? Ghandi.
If given a gun and a bullet, I'd kill neither.
well I already made my argument for life in prison, and it went ignored so I will tell you.

If life in prison means, life of routine, life of responsibility, life of complacency and comfort zone. That is not a punishment.. If you favor life in prison with anxiety, and turmoil, you have won me over for life in prison.

As I said before,  ex cons commit crimes for the sole purpose of going back to prison and their comfort zones. When life in prison really does become worse than death for criminals, and they fight to be executed instead of fight to stay alive, I will support life in prison.
il take a stab at this. the comfort zone of a harden criminal is not the same for a first time offender, so you can't treat them the same. However, on the otherhand, all it takes is one murder to end up on death row...Would it be accurate to say that life in prison is worse for the non-hardened criminals while death is worse for hardened criminals? I never thought of your argument that way before, really changes the perspective.
"you know life is what we make it, and a chance is like a picture, it'd be nice if you just take it"
2011-03-13 08:37:24
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|6940|Disaster Free Zone
One Reason and one reason only. The justice system is imperfect.
2011-03-13 08:56:06
UnkleRukus
That Guy
+236|5295|Massachusetts, USA
Not to play devils advocate here (I believe in the death penalty when it comes to rapists/serial killers and gruesome murders.) but what if the murderer is so insane but he hides it well and continues killing even after he was sentenced to life in prison (IE killing people in prison.)
If the women don't find ya handsome. They should at least find ya handy.
2011-03-13 09:05:10
Hurricane2k9
Pendulous Sweaty Balls
+1,538|5961|College Park, MD

UnkleRukus wrote:

Not to play devils advocate here (I believe in the death penalty when it comes to rapists/serial killers and gruesome murders.) but what if the murderer is so insane but he hides it well and continues killing even after he was sentenced to life in prison (IE killing people in prison.)
put 'm in supermax prison
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/36793/marylandsig.jpg
2011-03-13 09:10:10
UnkleRukus
That Guy
+236|5295|Massachusetts, USA

Hurricane2k9 wrote:

UnkleRukus wrote:

Not to play devils advocate here (I believe in the death penalty when it comes to rapists/serial killers and gruesome murders.) but what if the murderer is so insane but he hides it well and continues killing even after he was sentenced to life in prison (IE killing people in prison.)
put 'm in supermax prison
What I mean is, would it be so bad if they just killed each other instead. (the murderers and rapists.)
If the women don't find ya handsome. They should at least find ya handy.
2011-03-13 09:18:28
Hurricane2k9
Pendulous Sweaty Balls
+1,538|5961|College Park, MD
Eh, sounds like something you'd see in a film about a post-apocalyptic dystopic society so yeah.
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/36793/marylandsig.jpg
2011-03-13 09:53:27
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6258|...
reintroduction of gladiator games, I'm in.

Last edited by Shocking (2011-03-13 09:53:37)

inane little opines
2011-03-13 10:55:02
Jenspm
penis
+1,716|6991|St. Andrews / Oslo

lowing wrote:

Jenspm wrote:

lowing wrote:

for human rights to apply, you would need to emulate humane behavior. It would also mean you hold a child molesters life as just a sacred as his victim. Surely you can understand the argument against that notion.
I understand the argument, but I disagree with it.

Although the victim may have been a better asset to society, and of higher value in that sense, the molester's right to life isn't of any less value than anyone else's - it can't be, it is, in my opinion, infinite - and no-one has the right to take it.

If faced with the choice of saving Ghandi or a child molester from a burning building? Ghandi.
If given a gun and a bullet, I'd kill neither.
well I already made my argument for life in prison, and it went ignored so I will tell you.

If life in prison means, life of routine, life of responsibility, life of complacency and comfort zone. That is not a punishment.. If you favor life in prison with anxiety, and turmoil, you have won me over for life in prison.

As I said before,  ex cons commit crimes for the sole purpose of going back to prison and their comfort zones. When life in prison really does become worse than death for criminals, and they fight to be executed instead of fight to stay alive, I will support life in prison.
If that is a regular occurrence, then that is obviously awful. It doesn't, however, mean we need to "toughen up" the prison cells. If someone wants to give up his free life to live in prison instead, then there is clearly something that has gone wrong in the process of getting him out of prison and into society. A solution to this can be improved support after release, or even improved follow-up during prison-time to prepare him for meeting the outside world.

Someone committing a crime for the sole purpose of getting back into jail isn't mentally unaligned, viscious or a real threat to society. The person is just having massive struggles in coping/integrating with the "outside world" and needs help rather than punishment.
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/26774/flickricon.png https://twitter.com/phoenix/favicon.ico
2011-03-13 14:44:30
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|7031|PNW

Dilbert_X wrote:

Killing criminals doesn't actually achieve anything, its clearly not a deterrent to committing crime or those countries with the death penalty would have no crime would they?

If retarded rednecks want to string people up in retaliation then they're just proving further that they're retarded rednecks.

That and its pretty hard to reverse the sentence on someone wrongly convicted.
This whole thing started because AR called lowing a pro-lifer to try to catch him in a contradiction with his support for the death penalty. In fact, the case in the OP article states that the perpetrators admit to their dastardly crime1. So here we have the potential deaths of the unquestionably guilty vs the deaths of the unquestionably innocent. Despite comparison by trump card debaters in the hopes that it'll win them the argument, they're just not the same issue.

That an execution won't bring the kid back is a foregone conclusion and pretty pointless to bring up. Execution may not satisfy friends and relatives in all cases, but if I were related to the kid...I'd do my best. If it's considered worse to sentence people to life in prison, than perhaps DP-supporters should be lauded for their mercy1.

1I, too am hesitant to support the death penalty in cases where there's the slightest chance that the accused is innocent. But in a case like this, I don't see how these two could possibly be of any use to society.
2011-03-13 14:48:36
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6910|USA

Spark wrote:

lowing wrote:

Spark wrote:


Well the problem is that whilst in prison you can appeal, have trials based on new evidence if it comes up etc. Death has a tendency to be somewhat final.
Well that would mean death IS worse than life in prison right? Ok well so much for that argument.
It's not about one being worse than the other, it's about whether miscarriages of justice can be corrected.
We are talking about people whose guilt is without question or the possibility of question. the guy that shot the congresswoman, the guy that shot up Ft. hood. etc.. People like this have no question regarding their guilt, only their motivation and their mental state. Once those issues are resoved and they are found guilty..Execute them.

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