I suggest they use the Blackwater insignia.
Oh wait, they don't have one either.
Oh wait, they don't have one either.
Fuck Israel
OK so this debate has devolved into bickering about definitions... "palestinians have no army!".
First, hamas has a "military wing" and considers itself an army. Secondly, does it even matter?
First, hamas has a "military wing" and considers itself an army. Secondly, does it even matter?
inane little opines
Of so you say they don't have an army, well thats easy, they are criminals then, and criminals launching rockets need to be dealt with severely.AussieReaper wrote:
They dont have an army. What insignia do you think would be appropriate? One that says "OpFor" ?lowing wrote:
Wow I came in to see if you had provided links to support any of your arguments, not really surprised you haven't, but I am surprised that your argument now lays on the Palestinians not having insignia hence Israel is dead wrong. Kinda sad really.
It does when you have no other argument.dayarath wrote:
OK so this debate has devolved into bickering about definitions... "palestinians have no army!".
First, hamas has a "military wing" and considers itself an army. Secondly, does it even matter?
I have asked Dilbert to link to his "facts" he refuses, I ask Aussie questions he refuses to answer. So it boils down to this bullshit they are trying to argue.
Last edited by lowing (2011-02-26 10:33:51)
What it all boils down to in this argument is the differing opinions regarding who the aggressor is and who is being victimized. And as far as that is concerned, those who oppose Israel's government policy have provided sufficient and concrete evidence to support their overall position, only to be confronted with unsubstantiated disbelief and vague accusations and preconceptions. Going through that legendary Israeli heavy-handedness thread will be enough to convince anyone who thinks otherwise. It's my understanding also that Americans seem to have an overall different understanding of the situation than the rest of the world. I attribute the latter to the excellent work of the various israeli interest groups in informing the american public.
ƒ³
I don't support victimizing either party and loathe the hypocrisy of the whole israel/palestine situation.
millions of people around the globe in the same situation but all these guys so horrified at what Israel is doing don't give two shits about them, and don't say it isnt true - none of you have read up on or even tried to understand the other situations nearly as much as the Israel conflict.
millions of people around the globe in the same situation but all these guys so horrified at what Israel is doing don't give two shits about them, and don't say it isnt true - none of you have read up on or even tried to understand the other situations nearly as much as the Israel conflict.
inane little opines
Yes, lowing. They do.lowing wrote:
Of so you say they don't have an army, well thats easy, they are criminals then, and criminals launching rockets need to be dealt with severely.AussieReaper wrote:
They dont have an army. What insignia do you think would be appropriate? One that says "OpFor" ?lowing wrote:
Wow I came in to see if you had provided links to support any of your arguments, not really surprised you haven't, but I am surprised that your argument now lays on the Palestinians not having insignia hence Israel is dead wrong. Kinda sad really.
Declaring war on the Palestinian people to deal with criminals is ridiculous.
As far as I'm concerned that certainly isn't true! I know a lot more about the Turkish occupation in Cyprus - due to personal involvement.dayarath wrote:
I don't support victimizing either party and loathe the hypocrisy of the whole israel/palestine situation.
millions of people around the globe in the same situation but all these guys so horrified at what Israel is doing don't give two shits about them, and don't say it isnt true - none of you have read up on or even tried to understand the other situations nearly as much as the Israel conflict.
Other than that, there are certain things about the Israeli - Palestinian conflict that make it unique - chief of which is the sudden turn of the Jews from hunted to hunters. Not to mention the creation of a new country etc etc.
ƒ³
THey haven't. It is the criminals that use civilians as human shields not the IDF.AussieReaper wrote:
Yes, lowing. They do.lowing wrote:
Of so you say they don't have an army, well thats easy, they are criminals then, and criminals launching rockets need to be dealt with severely.AussieReaper wrote:
They dont have an army. What insignia do you think would be appropriate? One that says "OpFor" ?
Declaring war on the Palestinian people to deal with criminals is ridiculous.
Well if the militants are using human shields, how does it make any sense at all, to declare war on the country?
Can you explain that one to me?
Can you explain that one to me?
Sure, the IDF is not going to stand by and let itself be rocketed by the Palestinians. If the Palestinians decide to put their own civilians in harms way by attempting to stand behind them while they "fight", the collateral damage is on their hands and not the IDF. Besides, it is the Palesitinians that voted in a terrorist organization to represent them. You reap what they sow, if you don't want to fight anymore and want peace, I suggest you stop electing fighters for your govt.AussieReaper wrote:
Well if the militants are using human shields, how does it make any sense at all, to declare war on the country?
Can you explain that one to me?
Now, when were you going to answer the several questions I asked you a page ago?
Last edited by lowing (2011-02-27 01:44:17)
I see, so you claim the anti-Israel crowd has made their case, and there is absolutely no argument in Israel's defense. Forgive me if I label this post as no better than any other in debating this issue. You might as well have not said anything at all.oug wrote:
What it all boils down to in this argument is the differing opinions regarding who the aggressor is and who is being victimized. And as far as that is concerned, those who oppose Israel's government policy have provided sufficient and concrete evidence to support their overall position, only to be confronted with unsubstantiated disbelief and vague accusations and preconceptions. Going through that legendary Israeli heavy-handedness thread will be enough to convince anyone who thinks otherwise. It's my understanding also that Americans seem to have an overall different understanding of the situation than the rest of the world. I attribute the latter to the excellent work of the various israeli interest groups in informing the american public.
Like most arguments from your ilk, you claim your position is absolute, while dismissing all opposing arguments as propaganda, mis-information, racism, ignorance. I have my opinions, and I have argued them, but I have never argued them by claiming yours is wrong because I said so, and you are stupid.
Last edited by lowing (2011-02-27 03:51:05)
I know it sounds all dismissive etc, but that's not what I'm saying at all. First off I don't think you're racist, and I'm pretty certain there's enough propaganda to go both ways in this conflict. But I also know for a fact that the war of information has long ago been dominated by the Israelis - especially within the US, where the powerful Israeli lobby has managed to gain the favor of both major political parties and have its way with most, if not all major media.
And of course their primary goal - which they have also achieved - is to portray themselves as the victims of a war - if you will - which clearly they are winning, of a situation which is fully under their control.
Another thing they've managed to pull is to connect the war on terror after 9/11 with the Palestinian problem. The fact of the matter is that there's a clear distinction between religious fanatics in the arab world and the palestinian struggle for their land. But even from your own rhetoric one would think that they're one and the same. Sure enough the territory makes for an excellent breeding ground for religious extremists, but that is no excuse - especially considering that this situation is fabricated by the Israelis themselves through an occupation the likes of which we haven't witnessed since WWII.
But again, all that has been previously discussed. To no avail. Primarilly because you refuse to accept that those who are winning and who are in complete control, are thus responsible.
And of course their primary goal - which they have also achieved - is to portray themselves as the victims of a war - if you will - which clearly they are winning, of a situation which is fully under their control.
Another thing they've managed to pull is to connect the war on terror after 9/11 with the Palestinian problem. The fact of the matter is that there's a clear distinction between religious fanatics in the arab world and the palestinian struggle for their land. But even from your own rhetoric one would think that they're one and the same. Sure enough the territory makes for an excellent breeding ground for religious extremists, but that is no excuse - especially considering that this situation is fabricated by the Israelis themselves through an occupation the likes of which we haven't witnessed since WWII.
But again, all that has been previously discussed. To no avail. Primarilly because you refuse to accept that those who are winning and who are in complete control, are thus responsible.
ƒ³
The "war of information" is always controlled by the winners throughout history. Why do you set Israel apart from every other nation in history in that you expect Israel to lay down and accept destruction when they clearly do not have to, you expect Israel to give back everything they have achieved in wars started by their enemies, you expect Israel to only dish out retaliation equal to what they receive if at all. In short, you expect and demand Israel lose without considering their side of this. I ask you, because Aussie refuses to answer.oug wrote:
I know it sounds all dismissive etc, but that's not what I'm saying at all. First off I don't think you're racist, and I'm pretty certain there's enough propaganda to go both ways in this conflict. But I also know for a fact that the war of information has long ago been dominated by the Israelis - especially within the US, where the powerful Israeli lobby has managed to gain the favor of both major political parties and have its way with most, if not all major media.
And of course their primary goal - which they have also achieved - is to portray themselves as the victims of a war - if you will - which clearly they are winning, of a situation which is fully under their control.
Another thing they've managed to pull is to connect the war on terror after 9/11 with the Palestinian problem. The fact of the matter is that there's a clear distinction between religious fanatics in the arab world and the palestinian struggle for their land. But even from your own rhetoric one would think that they're one and the same. Sure enough the territory makes for an excellent breeding ground for religious extremists, but that is no excuse - especially considering that this situation is fabricated by the Israelis themselves through an occupation the likes of which we haven't witnessed since WWII.
But again, all that has been previously discussed. To no avail. Primarilly because you refuse to accept that those who are winning and who are in complete control, are thus responsible.
It is not the propaganda machine that links 911 to Israel/Palestine conflict, it is the terrorists that do that. It is not the propaganda machine that links Islam to terrorism, it is the terrorists that do that as well. If you want to be pissed about that, be pissed at the terrorists. THese are their claims, we are just believing them.
In every other war fought, the losers surrender. If the losers refuse to surrender then they should expect the war to linger. DOn't be pissed at Israel for winning the war they believe in. You expect every other nation that fights for their beliefs to fight to win, yet again you expect Israel to not fight for what they believe in and certainly not win if they are going to fight. It is an absurd position.
I dont give a fuck about either side to be honest. But it ridiculous for you condemn Israel for fighting for what they believe in, and win.
There have always been 2 sides to every conflict even the side you do not agree with has an argument. You refuse to acknowledge this from Israel. I don't.
Last edited by lowing (2011-02-27 09:46:30)
Indeed. But that doesn't mean that what they will choose to say is the truth or that we should treat it like the truth because it comes from the winners.lowing wrote:
The "war of information" is always controlled by the winners throughout history.
I did no such thing.lowing wrote:
Why do you set Israel apart from every other nation in history in that you expect Israel to lay down
That is clearly you speculating. I don't believe that the '67 boarders would mean destruction for Israel, much the opposite really. I think it would allow for civil negotiations with its neighbors, and flourishing conditions for both it and the Palestinians.lowing wrote:
and accept destruction
The alternative is to annihilate the Palestinians so in my view they have to.lowing wrote:
when they clearly do not have to
Not everything, no. I specifically stated what I expect them to give back. That is not everything. You are constantly painting a much grimmer set of possibilities for Israel than what they really have at hand. And I believe that if you search you'll be unable to back that grim picture with a sensible rationale that is not filled with speculation and false pretenses.lowing wrote:
you expect Israel to give back everything they have achieved
It was not. I think we can all agree on that, at least.lowing wrote:
in wars started by their enemies
You take it for granted that any action taken by Israel is of retaliatory fashion. Why is that?lowing wrote:
you expect Israel to only dish out retaliation equal to what they receive if at all
I suggest you look into that instead of just relying on belief.lowing wrote:
It is not the propaganda machine that links 911 to Israel/Palestine conflict, it is the terrorists that do that. It is not the propaganda machine that links Islam to terrorism, it is the terrorists that do that as well. If you want to be pissed about that, be pissed at the terrorists. THese are their claims, we are just believing them.
Following that logic, we're talking about a conflict that will end either with the extinction of Israel or the entire Arab world. Now THAT is an absurd position. I'm positive a middle ground can be found so that they both survive.lowing wrote:
In every other war fought, the losers surrender. If the losers refuse to surrender then they should expect the war to linger. DOn't be pissed at Israel for winning the war they believe in. You expect every other nation that fights for their beliefs to fight to win, yet again you expect Israel to not fight for what they believe in and certainly not win if they are going to fight. It is an absurd position.
ƒ³
1. It isn't for us to decide if they are right or wrong. There are 2 sides to this story. Israel is not all wrong.oug wrote:
Indeed. But that doesn't mean that what they will choose to say is the truth or that we should treat it like the truth because it comes from the winners.lowing wrote:
The "war of information" is always controlled by the winners throughout history.I did no such thing.lowing wrote:
Why do you set Israel apart from every other nation in history in that you expect Israel to lay downThat is clearly you speculating. I don't believe that the '67 boarders would mean destruction for Israel, much the opposite really. I think it would allow for civil negotiations with its neighbors, and flourishing conditions for both it and the Palestinians.lowing wrote:
and accept destructionThe alternative is to annihilate the Palestinians so in my view they have to.lowing wrote:
when they clearly do not have toNot everything, no. I specifically stated what I expect them to give back. That is not everything. You are constantly painting a much grimmer set of possibilities for Israel than what they really have at hand. And I believe that if you search you'll be unable to back that grim picture with a sensible rationale that is not filled with speculation and false pretenses.lowing wrote:
you expect Israel to give back everything they have achievedIt was not. I think we can all agree on that, at least.lowing wrote:
in wars started by their enemiesYou take it for granted that any action taken by Israel is of retaliatory fashion. Why is that?lowing wrote:
you expect Israel to only dish out retaliation equal to what they receive if at allI suggest you look into that instead of just relying on belief.lowing wrote:
It is not the propaganda machine that links 911 to Israel/Palestine conflict, it is the terrorists that do that. It is not the propaganda machine that links Islam to terrorism, it is the terrorists that do that as well. If you want to be pissed about that, be pissed at the terrorists. THese are their claims, we are just believing them.Following that logic, we're talking about a conflict that will end either with the extinction of Israel or the entire Arab world. Now THAT is an absurd position. I'm positive a middle ground can be found so that they both survive.lowing wrote:
In every other war fought, the losers surrender. If the losers refuse to surrender then they should expect the war to linger. DOn't be pissed at Israel for winning the war they believe in. You expect every other nation that fights for their beliefs to fight to win, yet again you expect Israel to not fight for what they believe in and certainly not win if they are going to fight. It is an absurd position.
2. Already been over that '67 borders issue. I quoted a shit loaded of leaders that have clearly stated any negotiations would be a temp fix until the destruction of Israel can be achieved. '67 borders is not an option.
3. No they don't have to, the other option would be for the losers to surrender just like everyone else does when they clearly have lost.
4. I suppose 7 wars, and the repeated stated intentions of Islamic leaders is not being able to back the grim picture?
5. Sorry no we obviously can not agree. in '67 massing along Israel borders with tanks and troops, cutting off their water way and stating your intentions to attack is starting a war. Don't be pissed because Israel kicked their ass.
6. If middle ground is to be found, it needs to start with the acceptance that Israel is going to exist and stop the rhetoric about destroying it the first chance you get. You want middle ground, you need to look at both sides for that, not one sided Israeli concessions.
Correct.lowing wrote:
1. It isn't for us to decide if they are right or wrong. There are 2 sides to this story. Israel is not all wrong.
Ok, must have missed those quotes. So what are these leaders suggesting instead?lowing wrote:
2. Already been over that '67 borders issue. I quoted a shit loaded of leaders that have clearly stated any negotiations would be a temp fix until the destruction of Israel can be achieved. '67 borders is not an option.
Would you surrender and get fucked up the ass? I doubt it.lowing wrote:
3. No they don't have to, the other option would be for the losers to surrender just like everyone else does when they clearly have lost.
Not really, no.lowing wrote:
4. I suppose 7 wars, and the repeated stated intentions of Islamic leaders is not being able to back the grim picture?
No. The terrorist acts that allowed for the creation of a jewish state within the British Mandate of Palestine is starting a war.lowing wrote:
5. Sorry no we obviously can not agree. in '67 massing along Israel borders with tanks and troops, cutting off their water way and stating your intentions to attack is starting a war. Don't be pissed because Israel kicked their ass.
And I'm not pissed about anything. Why would you say that?
It will still exist within the '67 boarders no? And btw, when has Israel conceded to anything?lowing wrote:
6. If middle ground is to be found, it needs to start with the acceptance that Israel is going to exist and stop the rhetoric about destroying it the first chance you get. You want middle ground, you need to look at both sides for that, not one sided Israeli concessions.
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2. http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?pi … 1#p3463541
3. how do you know they would "fuck them up the ass". All Israel wants is to exist without being rocketed
4. lol, well if you won't accept history and the clearly stated intention of the Palestinian leadership, the nI really am at a loss as to what you would accept.
5. The jewish state was created as part of a 2 state solution. Israel agreed the Arabs didn't and their has been war ever since. WHat does that tell you about the magical '67 borders, the Arabs didn't want Israel then and they do not want Israel now. Not with any fuckin borders. They have stated as much.
6. see 2 for the answer to that nonsense.
3. how do you know they would "fuck them up the ass". All Israel wants is to exist without being rocketed
4. lol, well if you won't accept history and the clearly stated intention of the Palestinian leadership, the nI really am at a loss as to what you would accept.
5. The jewish state was created as part of a 2 state solution. Israel agreed the Arabs didn't and their has been war ever since. WHat does that tell you about the magical '67 borders, the Arabs didn't want Israel then and they do not want Israel now. Not with any fuckin borders. They have stated as much.
6. see 2 for the answer to that nonsense.
Last edited by lowing (2011-02-27 17:23:40)
No, you quoted a lot of spam, mostly quotes from Palestinians of 30+ years ago and some unrelated stuff from Iran.lowing wrote:
2. Already been over that '67 borders issue. I quoted a shit loaded of leaders that have clearly stated any negotiations would be a temp fix until the destruction of Israel can be achieved. '67 borders is not an option.
We should have tried to see WW2 from the Nazis perspective too, they probably just wanted hugs.It isn't for us to decide if they are right or wrong. There are 2 sides to this story. Israel is not all wrong.
Fuck Israel
Its very similar actually, racist fruitcakes who believe they have a god-given right to slaughter and dispossess all those before them.
Fuck Israel
Did you honestly just compare the Israelis to the Nazis? Really? I mean really?Dilbert_X wrote:
We should have tried to see WW2 from the Nazis perspective too, they probably just wanted hugs.
don't feed the troll
jews are nazis zomgsCommie Killer wrote:
Did you honestly just compare the Israelis to the Nazis? Really? I mean really?Dilbert_X wrote:
We should have tried to see WW2 from the Nazis perspective too, they probably just wanted hugs.
Its too tempting.burnzz wrote:
don't feed the troll