IRONxWyvern
Member
+14|7080|Atlanta, GA
Well this back in the news.  Representative John Conyers (D), Michigan, has reintroduced House Resolution 40.  Here is an excerpt from his Web page with some of his comments:

I chose the number of the bill, 40, as a symbol of the forty acres and a mule that the United States initially promised freed slaves. This unfulfilled promise and the serious devastation that slavery had on African-American lives has never been officially recognized by the United States Government.

My bill does four things:

   1. It acknowledges the fundamental injustice and inhumanity of slavery
   2. It establishes a commission to study slavery, its subsequent racial and economic discrimination against freed slaves;
   3. It studies the impact of those forces on today's living African Americans; and
   4. The commission would then make recommendations to Congress on appropriate remedies to redress the harm inflicted on living African Americans.
I think this is a really bad idea.  The advocates of this cite reparations to interred Japanese-Americans during WWII, but these payments were made to people who were actually wronged not the descendants.  As far as I know there have been no slaves in 3 or 4 generations nor any slave owners. 

Slavery reparations supporters generally make this fundamental argument: That slavery harmed slaves and thus, indirectly, their descendants; therefore, any organization, corporation, institution or government that promoted or profited from slavery owes reparations to descendants of slaves.

Among the arguments made against reparations:

1) One injustice (slavery) cannot be corrected by another injustice (taking money from an innocent party). No one alive today owned slaves legally in the United States. Millions of non-black Americans don't even have ancestors who lived in the U.S. at the time of slavery.

2) It would be impossible to administer fairly. Most Americans don't know their lineage well enough to assert, let alone prove, harm from slavery (or the converse, that their ancestors are responsible for or benefited from slavery). This means -- and most reparations advocates seem to concede -- that reparations would be paid to black Americans by other Americans simply on the basis of race. This would result in reparations payments not only by the distant descendants of actual slaveowners, but of post-Civil War immigrants, such as Vietnamese "boat people" refugees and now-elderly survivors of Nazi concentration camps.

3) Reparations payments based on race alone would be perceived by nearly everyone forced to make payments as a monstrous injustice, embittering many and inevitably setting back race relations. Apologetic feelings many whites hold because of slavery and past civil rights injustices would to a significant extent be replaced by anger. Yet, would one of the goals of the reparations movement: A supposed lessening of black anger (to the extent it exists) because of slavery really abate if reparations were enacted? Evidence is scant.

What do you all think?
atlvolunteer
PKMMMMMMMMMM
+27|7011|Atlanta, GA USA
I don't think it is a good idea.  There has always been a group of people exploited by the landowners / corporations / whatever to maximize their profits.  Slavery is just one aspect of this exploitation that we (rightfully) deemed unacceptable in our society.  Why should the descendents of slaves get reparation over those of another group?  What about the Chinese who were basically treated as slave labor to build the railroads?  Should they get something?
Erkut.hv
Member
+124|6974|California

atlvolunteer wrote:

I don't think it is a good idea.  There has always been a group of people exploited by the landowners / corporations / whatever to maximize their profits.  Slavery is just one aspect of this exploitation that we (rightfully) deemed unacceptable in our society.  Why should the descendents of slaves get reparation over those of another group?  What about the Chinese who were basically treated as slave labor to build the railroads?  Should they get something?
What the hell happened to this country?

Ever since the 60's, this once great Republic has been sliding down a slippery slope at an ever-alarming pace. What exactly started all of this?
IRONxWyvern
Member
+14|7080|Atlanta, GA
@atlvolunteer

Good point, there are any number of people we can point to throughout history that have been enslaved/exploited over the last few Millenia.   This particular instance of America Slave reparations really bristles with me.  My family didn't immigrate to the US until the 1870's and they were dirt farmers in Missouri.  Many of us have similar stories as a majority of our ancestors were not slave owners, and many of us immigrated after the abolition of slavery.  Why should we be made to pay (Because we all know that the Government would be the ones making reparations, and they would get there money from us, the taxpayers)

Another point is that no living person was a slave or slave owner.  No one living can claim direct harm from slavery.  There is some argument that you can infer indirect harm from the institution of slavery but is thin at best.
Horseman 77
Banned
+160|7077
So he wants to Study it? 140+ years later, I bet the study would cost us millions and come to the conclusion that people work better when paid and Capitalisim works. So it would be burried and replaced with some other result.

Now my great ( x n  ) Grandfather on my Dads side was a Federal Cavalryman. So my question is, Do I get a Cut ?

PS Wait till ( Xxxxxxxxxxxx ) arives ! this Thread will go Wild and have to be pulled. Its gonna be funny!

Last edited by Horseman 77 (2006-05-12 09:10:04)

atlvolunteer
PKMMMMMMMMMM
+27|7011|Atlanta, GA USA

Erkut.hv wrote:

atlvolunteer wrote:

I don't think it is a good idea.  There has always been a group of people exploited by the landowners / corporations / whatever to maximize their profits.  Slavery is just one aspect of this exploitation that we (rightfully) deemed unacceptable in our society.  Why should the descendents of slaves get reparation over those of another group?  What about the Chinese who were basically treated as slave labor to build the railroads?  Should they get something?
What the hell happened to this country?

Ever since the 60's, this once great Republic has been sliding down a slippery slope at an ever-alarming pace. What exactly started all of this?
Personally, I think it is guilt.  Some people feel guilty for their success and/or wealth, so they feel they have to do something to make up for it.
atlvolunteer
PKMMMMMMMMMM
+27|7011|Atlanta, GA USA

IRONxWyvern wrote:

@atlvolunteer

Good point, there are any number of people we can point to throughout history that have been enslaved/exploited over the last few Millenia.   This particular instance of America Slave reparations really bristles with me.  My family didn't immigrate to the US until the 1870's and they were dirt farmers in Missouri.  Many of us have similar stories as a majority of our ancestors were not slave owners, and many of us immigrated after the abolition of slavery.  Why should we be made to pay (Because we all know that the Government would be the ones making reparations, and they would get there money from us, the taxpayers)

Another point is that no living person was a slave or slave owner.  No one living can claim direct harm from slavery.  There is some argument that you can infer indirect harm from the institution of slavery but is thin at best.
Not to mention the people who are descendents of poor farmers, etc. who couldn't have afforded a slave even if they wanted one.  Should they be held responsible?
Edited to make sense

Last edited by atlvolunteer (2006-05-12 09:10:09)

Agent_Dung_Bomb
Member
+302|6975|Salt Lake City

The things done in the past  to the Native Americans are worse than what happened with slavery.  I certainly don't believe anyone should ever "own" another person, but I see this as political grandstanding.

Last edited by Agent_Dung_Bomb (2006-05-12 10:02:22)

atlvolunteer
PKMMMMMMMMMM
+27|7011|Atlanta, GA USA

Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:

The things done in the past  to the Native Americans are worse than what happened with slavery.
I didn't even think of the Native Americans.  Good point.

Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:

I certainly don't believe anyone should ever "own" another person, but I see this as political grandstanding.
I agree
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,979|6871|949

Well, I believe the whole idea of reparations (at least the last time it was in the news, I'm not familiar with this new bill) was to retrieve money from insurance companies that back in the 1800s were providing insurance policies on slaves.  I was not aware of any legislation requesting that the government pay out reparations.  I agree, I do not believe that taxpayers now should be paying for something that happened over 100 years ago.  That being said, I do not think it unwise to study the impact of slavery on racial tensions now or to acknowledge the injustice and inhumanity of it.  I just want to know this senator's true intentions, seems he's either trying to get reelected or pandering to some group.
King_County_Downy
shitfaced
+2,791|6837|Seattle

https://xs200.xs.to/xs200/06195/Fif.jpg

What do you think Tron would say about this?
Sober enough to know what I'm doing, drunk enough to really enjoy doing it
Erkut.hv
Member
+124|6974|California

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

King_County_Downy wrote:

http://xs200.xs.to/xs200/06195/Fif.jpg

What do you think Tron would say about this?
Hide yo' money, theres poor people around.
lol.... Banana and cognac smoothie, biyatch.

Chapelle was funny.
IRONxWyvern
Member
+14|7080|Atlanta, GA

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Well, I believe the whole idea of reparations (at least the last time it was in the news, I'm not familiar with this new bill) was to retrieve money from insurance companies that back in the 1800s were providing insurance policies on slaves.  I was not aware of any legislation requesting that the government pay out reparations.  I agree, I do not believe that taxpayers now should be paying for something that happened over 100 years ago.  That being said, I do not think it unwise to study the impact of slavery on racial tensions now or to acknowledge the injustice and inhumanity of it.  I just want to know this senator's true intentions, seems he's either trying to get reelected or pandering to some group.
Exactly right Ken, He is pandering, primarily to his district which is in the Metro Detroit area.  I agree that there is no harm in acknowledging the inhumanity and injustice of slavery, I think all of us here agree with that, however I don't feel that a study of the impact of slavery on racial tensions, poverty, educations, etc., would be beneficial. 

While there may be some effect on these things from slavery, a point of which I am no means certain, studying a cause that has been removed would not be as helpful as working on it's effects.  Time would be more wisely spent in developing ways to improve the life of all Americans.
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6883
why dont we give the louisianna territory back to france as well, it was a steal.  Hey Alaska was dirt cheap too, might as well pay Russia what it is really worth in modern dollars.
The Stillhouse Kid
Licensed Televulcanologist
+126|6881|Deep In The South Of Texas
Not every slave was "promised" 40 acres and a mule. Read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman%27 … %2C_No._15

400,000 acres divided amongst 40,000 slaves does not = 40 acres per slave. Note also that a mule was not stipulated in this order, but surplus Army mules were likely included.

By June of 1865, around 40,000 freed slaves were settled on 400,000 acres (1,600 kmĀ²) in Georgia and South Carolina. Soon after, President Johnson reversed the order and returned the land to the original owners.
So basically the promise of reparations to ALL slaves is a myth. The Field Order was overturned by Pres. Johnson because it violated the Constitution. Gen. Sherman had no authority to make such a promise.
IBKCKNURASS
Corrosion Inhibitor
+172|6977
IRONxWyvern ru high? this article is from last year.
http://www.house.gov/conyers/news_reparations.htm
Torin
Member
+52|6932
I'm sure some ancestor of mine at some point in time had an injustice committed against them, where's my study/cut?
spacebandit72
Dead Meat
+121|6970|Michigan
Well, I don't want to sound bad but... all of this will not change the racism in this country. I am not racist but I see it as African Americans get money for something this generation did'nt even do. White guy feels robbed. White guy gets angry. African American get offended. And so the cycle keeps going.

I (like prolly allot of you) live paycheck to paycheck. The only fun I get in life is Bf2 (I'm not lying)
I'm just against our taxes being raised.

I may agree to all this if the government would get rid of allot of the useless spending. But, as it is... it's bad for everyone. Even if it gives an African American a cash advance up... The government could care less about us little guys. You could bet that any benefit would be taxed all to hell.
IRONxWyvern
Member
+14|7080|Atlanta, GA

IBKCKNURASS wrote:

IRONxWyvern ru high? this article is from last year.
http://www.house.gov/conyers/news_reparations.htm
Nope not High, Reintroduced by Rep Conyers on May 6 of this year.
D6717C
Anger is a gift
+174|6872|Sin City

I think I should get reperations for all the white guys that died in the cival war then.......and also because R. Kelly likes to pee all over people.

That whole idea would do nothing but cause corruption and fraud on a much larger scale then after Hurricane Katrina.  And how are you supposed to determine who gets it? Total B.S. There is enough problems with "racism" and "intolerance" without dividing the country by throwing more money at somebody so some asshole liberal democrat can get re-elected.
Torin
Member
+52|6932
While we're on the topic, why isn't there a Chinese History Month or a Latino History Month, or god forbid, a White History Month?
Major_Spittle
Banned
+276|6894|United States of America
I am White and I demand reparations due to the effect slavery has had on me.  My family came to America in the late 1800s and settled in the Northwest, yet because I am white I am being prejudged by blacks everywhere as being responsible for their problems created by slavery 2 centuries ago.  This fact has held me back from acheiving my full potential.  I want my 40 acres and a Mule. Come on you guilt ridden liberals, give me your money. It is your fault that blacks hate me, you repressed them.
mp30
Cynicism is an art, right?
+13|6970|It Rarely Rains in Seattle
Yeah! Let's spew out cynical responses to a ludicrous situation that will never come to any result. Maybe the real reason Black people "think" that they have been held back in society is because they "think" that they are victims of the past, and can thus not be held at fault. Victimization and induced White guilt can't get anyone too far...can it?
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,979|6871|949

totally off topic, but if I were this guy^^^^, I would have Bob Ross first.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6891|USA
Well I for one am all for reparations for slavery.

All slaves in America that are still alive should be set free and reimbursed AT ONCE with our sincerest apologies.

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