Oh I see what you're doing now! Nevermind.lowing wrote:
you are speaking of individuals who happen to be Muslim. Their faith i doubt had little to do with their accomplishments. I speak of the "GOLDEN AGE OF ISLAM" that everyone wants to point to as so great. Islam had little to do with their achievements.
What did Christianity have to do with their acheivements?lowing wrote:
you are speaking of individuals who happen to be Muslim. Their faith i doubt had little to do with their accomplishments. I speak of the "GOLDEN AGE OF ISLAM" that everyone wants to point to as so great. Islam had little to do with their achievements.
It has done nothing but hold science back, and continues to do so.
If you don't want to argue individuals, we can take out people like Gregor Mendel and Darwin.
There is no doubt whatsoever the Islamic culture that time was much more conducive to progress than anything Christianity came up with for a long long time.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
That was directed more a the man who thinks, The muslims must be given credit for good things they did thousands of years back. Christianity must be punished for bad things it did thousands of years back. Christians must not be given credit for good things they do today. Not you, sorry.SenorToenails wrote:
How about being honest with history?Hunter/Jumper wrote:
To sum it up
muslims must not be held accountable for any bad things the do today
How about giving credit where credit is due, regardless of who did the deed, positive or negative?
This ought to be the goal here, not that baloney.
I am honest.
I do give credit where it's due. In both cases, It is a sword that cuts both ways.
Lol OK, but really - if your opinions have nothing to do with the koran then the 'religionofpeace' websites arguments are irrelevant, doubly so if you're saying your opinions don't apply to all muslims.lowing wrote:
Ahhhh the master of misquotes and butchering context is here.Dilbert_X wrote:
Then just stop talking.lowing wrote:
My opinions have nothing to do with what the bible or the Koran says.
Culture and society lead to individual behaviour. Back in the time of the Persian empire religion was the culture, and in many places still is.you are speaking of individuals who happen to be Muslim. Their faith i doubt had little to do with their accomplishments. I speak of the "GOLDEN AGE OF ISLAM" that everyone wants to point to as so great. Islam had little to do with their achievements.
Or are you going to say a culture of fear of god, personal freedom and free enterprise have nothing to do with the accomplishments of Americans?
Last edited by Dilbert_X (2011-01-27 20:03:04)
Fuck Israel
That would be correct. My opinions have nothing to do with the Koran as a stand alone text. Hell I don't give a shit about some devil worshipping book as a stand alone text. My opinions have everything to do with those that cite the Koran and their religious leaders and their religious martyrs for their actions. So in my opinion anyone who takes such atrocious action and can cite reference for that action ain't worth a damn, nor is the religion they evoke.Dilbert_X wrote:
Lol OK, but really - if your opinions have nothing to do with the koran then the 'religionofpeace' websites arguments are irrelevant, doubly so if you're saying your opinions don't apply to all muslims.lowing wrote:
Ahhhh the master of misquotes and butchering context is here.Dilbert_X wrote:
Then just stop talking.Culture and society lead to individual behaviour. Back in the time of the Persian empire religion was the culture, and in many places still is.you are speaking of individuals who happen to be Muslim. Their faith i doubt had little to do with their accomplishments. I speak of the "GOLDEN AGE OF ISLAM" that everyone wants to point to as so great. Islam had little to do with their achievements.
Or are you going to say a culture of fear of god, personal freedom and free enterprise have nothing to do with the accomplishments of Americans?
I see so if :culture and society lead to individual behavior:, then the Islamic extremists can cite their culture and society for their individual behavior. WHich does not speak well for either and I am thinking their are a lot more of them, than their are Islamic genius's out there redefining mathematics.
Christianity hasn't done dick for the advancement of science and knowledge. Individuals who might have happened to be Christian did.AussieReaper wrote:
What did Christianity have to do with their acheivements?lowing wrote:
you are speaking of individuals who happen to be Muslim. Their faith i doubt had little to do with their accomplishments. I speak of the "GOLDEN AGE OF ISLAM" that everyone wants to point to as so great. Islam had little to do with their achievements.
It has done nothing but hold science back, and continues to do so.
If you don't want to argue individuals, we can take out people like Gregor Mendel and Darwin.
George Washington was not a great Christian president. He was a great president who happened to be a Christian.
Religion as a whole, does nothing but stifle science and knowledge with its fire and brimstone bullshit.
Bush cited God on numerous occasions, that must mean Christianity is an evil religion.
The Islamic extremists are exactly that, extremists, they can cite whatever they want for their individual behaviour, the collective behaviour is somewhat different and more representative.
The Islamic extremists are exactly that, extremists, they can cite whatever they want for their individual behaviour, the collective behaviour is somewhat different and more representative.
Fuck Israel
yes through the conquering of others lands taking their knowledge and spreading it.Spark wrote:
There is no doubt whatsoever the Islamic culture that time was much more conducive to progress than anything Christianity came up with for a long long time.
Just like everyone else I suspect. Difference being, you do not hear of any other religion as being solely responsible for those advances in science and math.
WHat the hell does Islam have to do with algebra? or what does Christianity have to do with medical advancements? Nothing
So is it not fair to say that "Islamic golden age", has nothing to do with Islam, rather individuals who might happen to be Muslim?
Because if they did not take the Koran, and draw up new mathematical discoveries with it, then really, Islam had nothing to do with it did it?
Last edited by lowing (2011-01-28 04:50:55)
Well lets see, during the golden age of islam scientific advances were celebrated, during the christian dark ages the church would have anyone who came up with a radical scientific theory tortured and killed.
This is how religion affects society and hence enlightenment.
This is how religion affects society and hence enlightenment.
Fuck Israel
It's about the creation of culture...lowing wrote:
yes through the conquering of others lands taking their knowledge and spreading it.Spark wrote:
There is no doubt whatsoever the Islamic culture that time was much more conducive to progress than anything Christianity came up with for a long long time.
Just like everyone else I suspect. Difference being, you do not hear of any other religion as being solely responsible for those advances in science and math.
WHat the hell does Islam have to do with algebra? or what does Christianity have to do with medical advancements? Nothing
So is it not fair to say that "Islamic golden age", has nothing to do with Islam, rather individuals who might happen to be Muslim?
Because if they did not take the Koran, and draw up new mathematical discoveries with it, then really, Islam had nothing to do with it did it?
But in a bizarre way you've provided evidence for my original point, which has been roundly ignored by basically everyone. Good job folks.
Last edited by Spark (2011-01-28 04:59:03)
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
Now, I know you are always reaching for an argument, but are you really wanting to compare a man praying for protection for his troops and guidance and wisdom as the same thing as a person yelling god is great as he drives his car full of explosives into a crowded market full of women and children and blowing them all up? Are you really trying to make that comparison?Dilbert_X wrote:
Bush cited God on numerous occasions, that must mean Christianity is an evil religion.
The Islamic extremists are exactly that, extremists, they can cite whatever they want for their individual behaviour, the collective behaviour is somewhat different and more representative.
yeah you keep leaving out the part that for the most part all of those advancements came at the end of a sword.Dilbert_X wrote:
Well lets see, during the golden age of islam scientific advances were celebrated, during the christian dark ages the church would have anyone who came up with a radical scientific theory tortured and killed.
This is how religion affects society and hence enlightenment.
Spark hit me again with your point, pleaseSpark wrote:
It's about the creation of culture...lowing wrote:
yes through the conquering of others lands taking their knowledge and spreading it.Spark wrote:
There is no doubt whatsoever the Islamic culture that time was much more conducive to progress than anything Christianity came up with for a long long time.
Just like everyone else I suspect. Difference being, you do not hear of any other religion as being solely responsible for those advances in science and math.
WHat the hell does Islam have to do with algebra? or what does Christianity have to do with medical advancements? Nothing
So is it not fair to say that "Islamic golden age", has nothing to do with Islam, rather individuals who might happen to be Muslim?
Because if they did not take the Koran, and draw up new mathematical discoveries with it, then really, Islam had nothing to do with it did it?
But in a bizarre way you've provided evidence for my original point, which has been roundly ignored by basically everyone. Good job folks.
The advancements came nonetheless...lowing wrote:
yeah you keep leaving out the part that for the most part all of those advancements came at the end of a sword.Dilbert_X wrote:
Well lets see, during the golden age of islam scientific advances were celebrated, during the christian dark ages the church would have anyone who came up with a radical scientific theory tortured and killed.
This is how religion affects society and hence enlightenment.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
That actions taken in the name of a religion or resulting from the culture created by a religion, with all its textures, facets and interpretations, cannot be seen to imply that that religion favors one overriding ideology or another, because you can extend that logic to create all kinds of nonsensical contradictions. Especially with one so vast and varied as Islam.lowing wrote:
Spark hit me again with your point, pleaseSpark wrote:
It's about the creation of culture...lowing wrote:
yes through the conquering of others lands taking their knowledge and spreading it.
Just like everyone else I suspect. Difference being, you do not hear of any other religion as being solely responsible for those advances in science and math.
WHat the hell does Islam have to do with algebra? or what does Christianity have to do with medical advancements? Nothing
So is it not fair to say that "Islamic golden age", has nothing to do with Islam, rather individuals who might happen to be Muslim?
Because if they did not take the Koran, and draw up new mathematical discoveries with it, then really, Islam had nothing to do with it did it?
But in a bizarre way you've provided evidence for my original point, which has been roundly ignored by basically everyone. Good job folks.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
I hope I understood you correctly,but religion as a whole is a road block, not a catalyst for any sort discovery. Religion especially Islam does not encourage outside the box thinking therefore can not take credit for any discoveries under its rule.Spark wrote:
That actions taken in the name of a religion or resulting from the culture created by a religion, with all its textures, facets and interpretations, cannot be seen to imply that that religion favors one overriding ideology or another, because you can extend that logic to create all kinds of nonsensical contradictions. Especially with one so vast and varied as Islam.lowing wrote:
Spark hit me again with your point, pleaseSpark wrote:
It's about the creation of culture...
But in a bizarre way you've provided evidence for my original point, which has been roundly ignored by basically everyone. Good job folks.
yes they did, but not as a result of a golden age, but as a result of vast conquering. I do suppose within Islam the conquering and oppression of non-Muslims would be considered "golden"Spark wrote:
The advancements came nonetheless...lowing wrote:
yeah you keep leaving out the part that for the most part all of those advancements came at the end of a sword.Dilbert_X wrote:
Well lets see, during the golden age of islam scientific advances were celebrated, during the christian dark ages the church would have anyone who came up with a radical scientific theory tortured and killed.
This is how religion affects society and hence enlightenment.
Why "especially Islam"? Can you justify that point?lowing wrote:
I hope I understood you correctly,but religion as a whole is a road block, not a catalyst for any sort discovery. Religion especially Islam does not encourage outside the box thinking therefore can not take credit for any discoveries under its rule.Spark wrote:
That actions taken in the name of a religion or resulting from the culture created by a religion, with all its textures, facets and interpretations, cannot be seen to imply that that religion favors one overriding ideology or another, because you can extend that logic to create all kinds of nonsensical contradictions. Especially with one so vast and varied as Islam.lowing wrote:
Spark hit me again with your point, please
In what way, particularly in the period you are discussing, is Islam more restrictive of free thinking and innovation than Christianity?
Praying for guidance and wisdom or talking of crusades as he sends hundreds of thousands of troops into battle?lowing wrote:
Now, I know you are always reaching for an argument, but are you really wanting to compare a man praying for protection for his troops and guidance and wisdom as the same thing as a person yelling god is great as he drives his car full of explosives into a crowded market full of women and children and blowing them all up? Are you really trying to make that comparison?
Please explain how astronomy and algebra 'came at the end of a sword'.yeah you keep leaving out the part that for the most part all of those advancements came at the end of a sword.
Fuck Israel
yes, or does the oppression of women and gays, or non Muslims in Islamic culture not give you a hint?Bertster7 wrote:
Why "especially Islam"? Can you justify that point?lowing wrote:
I hope I understood you correctly,but religion as a whole is a road block, not a catalyst for any sort discovery. Religion especially Islam does not encourage outside the box thinking therefore can not take credit for any discoveries under its rule.Spark wrote:
That actions taken in the name of a religion or resulting from the culture created by a religion, with all its textures, facets and interpretations, cannot be seen to imply that that religion favors one overriding ideology or another, because you can extend that logic to create all kinds of nonsensical contradictions. Especially with one so vast and varied as Islam.
In what way, particularly in the period you are discussing, is Islam more restrictive of free thinking and innovation than Christianity?
yeah and?Dilbert_X wrote:
Praying for guidance and wisdom or talking of crusades as he sends hundreds of thousands of troops into battle?lowing wrote:
Now, I know you are always reaching for an argument, but are you really wanting to compare a man praying for protection for his troops and guidance and wisdom as the same thing as a person yelling god is great as he drives his car full of explosives into a crowded market full of women and children and blowing them all up? Are you really trying to make that comparison?Please explain how astronomy and algebra 'came at the end of a sword'.yeah you keep leaving out the part that for the most part all of those advancements came at the end of a sword.
already did. The Islamic golden age was a result of mass conquering. Or do you think it is just a coincidence that their advancements and discoveries ended along with their ability to conquer new lands?
It did there though. In fact Islam by placing such importance on Mecca directly accelerated the discovery process. I also believe Islam directly encourages a merchant economy, something Europe wouldn't pick up on for centuries, and that certainly helped.lowing wrote:
I hope I understood you correctly,but religion as a whole is a road block, not a catalyst for any sort discovery. Religion especially Islam does not encourage outside the box thinking therefore can not take credit for any discoveries under its rule.Spark wrote:
That actions taken in the name of a religion or resulting from the culture created by a religion, with all its textures, facets and interpretations, cannot be seen to imply that that religion favors one overriding ideology or another, because you can extend that logic to create all kinds of nonsensical contradictions. Especially with one so vast and varied as Islam.lowing wrote:
Spark hit me again with your point, please
Sigh.yes, or does the oppression of women and gays, or non Muslims in Islamic culture not give you a hint?
It would be a fascinating coincidence if it were true. The major conquests had basically ended by the middle of the 8th century... generally regarded as the start of the Golden Age. It ended when the Christians and then the Mongols (especially the Mongols) came and fucked everything up, a mere 400 years later.lowing wrote:
yeah and?Dilbert_X wrote:
Praying for guidance and wisdom or talking of crusades as he sends hundreds of thousands of troops into battle?lowing wrote:
Now, I know you are always reaching for an argument, but are you really wanting to compare a man praying for protection for his troops and guidance and wisdom as the same thing as a person yelling god is great as he drives his car full of explosives into a crowded market full of women and children and blowing them all up? Are you really trying to make that comparison?Please explain how astronomy and algebra 'came at the end of a sword'.yeah you keep leaving out the part that for the most part all of those advancements came at the end of a sword.
already did. The Islamic golden age was a result of mass conquering. Or do you think it is just a coincidence that their advancements and discoveries ended along with their ability to conquer new lands?
Last edited by Spark (2011-01-28 05:32:23)
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
I repeat: I am not saying that Islam ie the Koran encourages scientific knowledge, enlightenment and social progress particularly. But by exactly the same token, it does not particularly encourage murder, terrorism and misogyny.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
So with all of Islam,s stand alone advancements, where has it been for the past 800 years, and how on earth did it wind up with suicide bombings, oppression, and honor killings?Spark wrote:
It did there though. In fact Islam by placing such importance on Mecca directly accelerated the discovery process. I also believe Islam directly encourages a merchant economy, something Europe wouldn't pick up on for centuries, and that certainly helped.lowing wrote:
I hope I understood you correctly,but religion as a whole is a road block, not a catalyst for any sort discovery. Religion especially Islam does not encourage outside the box thinking therefore can not take credit for any discoveries under its rule.Spark wrote:
That actions taken in the name of a religion or resulting from the culture created by a religion, with all its textures, facets and interpretations, cannot be seen to imply that that religion favors one overriding ideology or another, because you can extend that logic to create all kinds of nonsensical contradictions. Especially with one so vast and varied as Islam.lowing wrote:
Spark hit me again with your point, pleaseSigh.yes, or does the oppression of women and gays, or non Muslims in Islamic culture not give you a hint?It would be a fascinating coincidence if it were true. The major conquests had basically ended by the middle of the 8th century... generally regarded as the start of the Golden Age. It ended when the Christians and then the Mongols (especially the Mongols) came and fucked everything up, a mere 400 years later.lowing wrote:
yeah and?Dilbert_X wrote:
Praying for guidance and wisdom or talking of crusades as he sends hundreds of thousands of troops into battle?lowing wrote:
Now, I know you are always reaching for an argument, but are you really wanting to compare a man praying for protection for his troops and guidance and wisdom as the same thing as a person yelling god is great as he drives his car full of explosives into a crowded market full of women and children and blowing them all up? Are you really trying to make that comparison?
Please explain how astronomy and algebra 'came at the end of a sword'.
already did. The Islamic golden age was a result of mass conquering. Or do you think it is just a coincidence that their advancements and discoveries ended along with their ability to conquer new lands?