SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6404|North Tonawanda, NY
Two young men, brothers, had got into serious trouble. They were secretly leaving town in a hurry and needed money. Karl, the older one, broke into a store and stole a thousand dollars. Bob, the younger one, went to a retired old man who was known to help people in town. He told the man that he was very sick and that he needed a thousand dollars to pay for an operation. Bob asked the old man to lend him the money and promised that he would pay him back when he recovered. Really Bob wasn't sick at all, and he had no intention of paying the man back. Although the old man didn't know Bob very well, he lent him the money. So Bob and Karl skipped town, each with a thousand dollars.
Which act was worse?
I'm tempted to say they are equally bad.  Without a doubt, theft of any kind is wrong...but I do see a point where Bob's crime diverges from just 'theft'.  To be clear, they are both legally in the wrong.  I argue the following from my own morals.

Why?
Karl committed burglary and larceny, based on the text of the scenario.  There is no indication that he used force on another person in the commission of his crime.  Clearly guilty, clearly wrong.

Bob defrauded an old man.  There is no indication of the relative wealth of the old man to the storekeeper (if that would really matter anyway), so no assumptions based on that can be made here.  However, Bob went to another person who is known to help people with the express purpose of defrauding him.  The difference to me is that he played the mans emotions, promised to pay him back, and took the money fully knowing he was lying his ass off.  That aspect of actually facing the victim of the crime and manipulating them makes it more morally repugnant in my book, since honesty is something I value highly.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5632|London, England

Turquoise wrote:

DBBrinson1 wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Equally wrong.
*or if you examine it from the shop keepers perspective...

He now raises the prices in his store more to compensate for the lost income.  Now EVERYONE who shops there pays more.  As to where the scenario only one guy get's screwed.

They're both assholes.  I hope the law catches them and they resist with golf clubs, giving the cops a great reason to kill them both.
If Sturgeon's assumptions are correct, then insurance will cover the losses -- making raises in prices unnecessary.
Insurance claims usually lead to higher premiums which would in turn raise prices long term.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6404|North Tonawanda, NY

JohnG@lt wrote:

Insurance claims usually lead to higher premiums which would in turn raise prices long term.
I'm curious about what Turquoise meant in his last post about 'writing off an extra thousand'.  It sounds a bit like insurance fraud (though I admit I don't know a whole lot about insurance claims).
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6679|North Carolina

SenorToenails wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Kimmmmmmmmmmmm wrote:

depends on what was a thousand dollars in the shop. was it goods or ca$h
Making the difference by writing off an extra thousand on property damage would cover the cash easily enough.  People do that all the time.
What do you mean by 'writing an extra thousand on property damage'?
Padding insurance damage is fairly common.  Depending on how much total damage was done through the break-in, it might be easy to add a little onto the filing.

It also depends on if you have some friends in the industry.  Technically, it's insurance fraud, but then again, it's fairly difficult to prove.
Sturgeon
Member
+488|5215|Flintshire
I think he meant say the damages were $1000 more than what they really were in order to recoup the $1000 lost in cash
https://bf3s.com/sigs/3dda27c6d0d9b22836605b152b9d214b99507f91.png
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6679|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

DBBrinson1 wrote:


*or if you examine it from the shop keepers perspective...

He now raises the prices in his store more to compensate for the lost income.  Now EVERYONE who shops there pays more.  As to where the scenario only one guy get's screwed.

They're both assholes.  I hope the law catches them and they resist with golf clubs, giving the cops a great reason to kill them both.
If Sturgeon's assumptions are correct, then insurance will cover the losses -- making raises in prices unnecessary.
Insurance claims usually lead to higher premiums which would in turn raise prices long term.
Insurance rates can surely rise after a claim, but the ability to raise prices is largely dependent on competition.  Even if a business owner would like to raise prices, he/she may not be able to in some cases.
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6404|North Tonawanda, NY

Turquoise wrote:

SenorToenails wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Making the difference by writing off an extra thousand on property damage would cover the cash easily enough.  People do that all the time.
What do you mean by 'writing an extra thousand on property damage'?
Padding insurance damage is fairly common.  Depending on how much total damage was done through the break-in, it might be easy to add a little onto the filing.

It also depends on if you have some friends in the industry.  Technically, it's insurance fraud, but then again, it's fairly difficult to prove.
Insurance fraud is no better than what Bob did.  Right?  My point being that it is wrong to 'right' a crime by committing another one.

Last edited by SenorToenails (2011-01-21 12:46:56)

Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5632|London, England

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


If Sturgeon's assumptions are correct, then insurance will cover the losses -- making raises in prices unnecessary.
Insurance claims usually lead to higher premiums which would in turn raise prices long term.
Insurance rates can surely rise after a claim, but the ability to raise prices is largely dependent on competition.  Even if a business owner would like to raise prices, he/she may not be able to in some cases.
In that case, the shopkeeper is taking a much larger longterm hit than the simple $1000 in the OP.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6679|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:


Insurance claims usually lead to higher premiums which would in turn raise prices long term.
Insurance rates can surely rise after a claim, but the ability to raise prices is largely dependent on competition.  Even if a business owner would like to raise prices, he/she may not be able to in some cases.
In that case, the shopkeeper is taking a much larger longterm hit than the simple $1000 in the OP.
That depends on his earnings.  A convenience store owner would likely feel the loss of $1,000 more severely.  A business that brings in far more revenue wouldn't.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6679|North Carolina

SenorToenails wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

SenorToenails wrote:


What do you mean by 'writing an extra thousand on property damage'?
Padding insurance damage is fairly common.  Depending on how much total damage was done through the break-in, it might be easy to add a little onto the filing.

It also depends on if you have some friends in the industry.  Technically, it's insurance fraud, but then again, it's fairly difficult to prove.
Insurance fraud is no better than what Bob did.  Right?  My point being that it is wrong to 'right' a crime by committing another one.
Well, yes...  There's no question that what Bob and Karl did was wrong and that insurance fraud is also wrong.

However, my morals are largely dependent on repercussions.
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6404|North Tonawanda, NY

Turquoise wrote:

SenorToenails wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Padding insurance damage is fairly common.  Depending on how much total damage was done through the break-in, it might be easy to add a little onto the filing.

It also depends on if you have some friends in the industry.  Technically, it's insurance fraud, but then again, it's fairly difficult to prove.
Insurance fraud is no better than what Bob did.  Right?  My point being that it is wrong to 'right' a crime by committing another one.
Well, yes...  There's no question that what Bob and Karl did was wrong and that insurance fraud is also wrong.

However, my morals are largely dependent on repercussions.
So, what do your morals say about such a fraud?  Would you, as the shopkeeper, inflate your damages to get a higher payout?
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6923

lowing wrote:

SenorToenails wrote:

I found this moral dilemma and I was curious about other people's thoughts on this...

Two young men, brothers, had got into serious trouble. They were secretly leaving town in a hurry and needed money. Karl, the older one, broke into a store and stole a thousand dollars. Bob, the younger one, went to a retired old man who was known to help people in town. He told the man that he was very sick and that he needed a thousand dollars to pay for an operation. Bob asked the old man to lend him the money and promised that he would pay him back when he recovered. Really Bob wasn't sick at all, and he had no intention of paying the man back. Although the old man didn't know Bob very well, he lent him the money. So Bob and Karl skipped town, each with a thousand dollars.
Which act was worse?  why?

Was the old man irresponsible in lending to Bob?  why?

I will give my take on this after a few replies.
I am assuming the store had no people in it, so I will say Bob is the worst.

My reasoning is they both stole money however, Bob is worse because, his crime was also personal, he deceived an old man face to face for the money, so he has no conscience. Bob is also a liar. Bob is a con artist, he feeds off of other peoples good nature and takes advantage of them. Bob is also more dangerous because he has direct contact with his victims

Karls crime as shitty as it was, was not personal. He is still a low life, but Bob is a little bit lower.
This.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6679|North Carolina

SenorToenails wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

SenorToenails wrote:


Insurance fraud is no better than what Bob did.  Right?  My point being that it is wrong to 'right' a crime by committing another one.
Well, yes...  There's no question that what Bob and Karl did was wrong and that insurance fraud is also wrong.

However, my morals are largely dependent on repercussions.
So, what do your morals say about such a fraud?  Would you, as the shopkeeper, inflate your damages to get a higher payout?
That depends on if I think I could slip it past my provider.  If so, yes.

In the world of D&D, I would be Chaotic Good, not Lawful Good.
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6404|North Tonawanda, NY

Turquoise wrote:

SenorToenails wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


Well, yes...  There's no question that what Bob and Karl did was wrong and that insurance fraud is also wrong.

However, my morals are largely dependent on repercussions.
So, what do your morals say about such a fraud?  Would you, as the shopkeeper, inflate your damages to get a higher payout?
That depends on if I think I could slip it past my provider.  If so, yes.

In the world of D&D, I would be Chaotic Good, not Lawful Good.
hahaha, well, that IS the most misunderstood and misused alignment out there.  Your action would imply chaotic neutral, since you are putting yourself first.  There is no intention to do the right thing when you commit a fraud that you know is wrong.  :p
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6679|North Carolina

SenorToenails wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

SenorToenails wrote:


So, what do your morals say about such a fraud?  Would you, as the shopkeeper, inflate your damages to get a higher payout?
That depends on if I think I could slip it past my provider.  If so, yes.

In the world of D&D, I would be Chaotic Good, not Lawful Good.
hahaha, well, that IS the most misunderstood and misused alignment out there.  Your action would imply chaotic neutral, since you are putting yourself first.  There is no intention to do the right thing when you commit a fraud that you know is wrong.  :p
Well, the action itself is Chaotic Neutral, but I was labeling myself as Chaotic Good because I'm moral about more serious things.

I'm not a big fan of insurance companies, and I feel that they are legally allowed to commit fraud against customers, so I don't mind a little payback now and then.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,816|6380|eXtreme to the maX
Karl stole from a business-owner who therefore must have been a freedom-loving Republican

Bob stole from someone known to help people who therefore must have been a freedom-hating Liberal.

Karl did the worst thing.
Fuck Israel
Hunter/Jumper
Member
+117|6628

naightknifar wrote:

IMO they're 2 grand up. Good effort by all.
I really laughed out loud, thanks
Hunter/Jumper
Member
+117|6628

lowing wrote:

SenorToenails wrote:

I found this moral dilemma and I was curious about other people's thoughts on this...

Two young men, brothers, had got into serious trouble. They were secretly leaving town in a hurry and needed money. Karl, the older one, broke into a store and stole a thousand dollars. Bob, the younger one, went to a retired old man who was known to help people in town. He told the man that he was very sick and that he needed a thousand dollars to pay for an operation. Bob asked the old man to lend him the money and promised that he would pay him back when he recovered. Really Bob wasn't sick at all, and he had no intention of paying the man back. Although the old man didn't know Bob very well, he lent him the money. So Bob and Karl skipped town, each with a thousand dollars.
Which act was worse?  why?

Was the old man irresponsible in lending to Bob?  why?

I will give my take on this after a few replies.
I am assuming the store had no people in it, so I will say Bob is the worst.

My reasoning is they both stole money however, Bob is worse because, his crime was also personal, he deceived an old man face to face for the money, so he has no conscience. Bob is also a liar. Bob is a con artist, he feeds off of other peoples good nature and takes advantage of them. Bob is also more dangerous because he has direct contact with his victims

Karls crime as shitty as it was, was not personal. He is still a low life, but Bob is a little bit lower.
Well done !

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