Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6688|North Carolina
Hardly a day goes by without news about the penetration of the Pakistani state by Islamic fanaticism and the connection between that country's Inter-Services Intelligence directorate and radical groups in Afghanistan, including the Taliban.

Fortunately for those who want to better understand Pakistan -- the main theater of war for Asia and the Middle East today -- a documentary on Benazir Bhutto, the former prime minister assassinated soon after returning from exile in the waning days of dictator Pervez Musharraf's regime, has been released in the United States. "Bhutto," directed by Duane Baughman and Johnny O'Hara, is generally laudatory, though enough information is given about the murder of Murtaza Bhutto, Benazir's estranged brother and rival, which Murtaza's daughter blames on Benazir, and the allegations of corruption against current President Asif Ali Zardari, Benazir's husband who spent eight years in jail but was not charged, for viewers to be left wondering.

By far the most important contribution of the film, however, is something that does not constitute its primary focus -- the gradual pervasiveness of religious fanaticism throughout Pakistan's institutions and society since the 1980s.

Benazir's father, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, the first civilian head of state after the civil war that led to Bangladesh's separation from Pakistan in 1971, moderately encouraged Islam as a nationalist symbol aimed at keeping a distance from the United States, whose support of India Islamabad resented. It was his successor, Gen. Mohammed Zia ul-Haq, who deposed Bhutto in a coup and later had him executed, who decreed the Islamization of the country. Unlike what happened in the Arab world, where military dictatorships have been a bulwark against Islamic fundamentalism for some decades, Islamization in Pakistan was a weapon used by the army to legitimize its authoritarian rule. Under Zia and the Pakistani military, development of nuclear weapons also helped fuse nationalist pride with Islamic legitimacy.

The support given by Zia, with close cooperation from the United States, to the mujahedeen in Afghanistan fighting Soviet imperialism was crucial for the continued spread of fundamentalism. Countless refugees from across the border were given carte blanche to set up religious madrassas. The dictator encouraged the growth of the Pakistan Muslim League, a political organization, as a way to pre-empt democratic forces, particularly Benazir Bhutto's Pakistan People's Party. Nawaz Sharif, who would later become leader of the country, rose to prominence under Zia. After Zia died in an airplane crash, Sharif's rise was facilitated by the ISI, which was led by Hamid Gul and had by then become the key player in Pakistan's establishment.

Neither Benazir Bhutto, whose two terms were cut short by the military with help from civilian stooges, nor Sharif, who was manipulated by the military and never able to govern independently, were allowed to establish full civilian authority. Moreover, they failed to see that their common interest, namely protecting civilian institutions from military meddling, was much more important than their legendary rivalry.

In the first decade of the new millennium, Musharraf, who persecuted both Benazir Bhutto and Sharif, and sought to make himself indispensable by becoming an ally of the West in the fight against the Taliban and al-Qaeda in Afghanistan, actually did the opposite of what he promised Washington. Precisely because the secret services on which Musharraf's power rested had become a bastion of Pakistani Islamization long before his rule, his country's institutions continued to prop up the very ideology and violent groups that the dictatorship purported to combat. Bhutto's assassination in Rawalpindi in December 2007, thanks to the negligence of the authorities and the ease with which terrorist fanatics operated in the country under the protection of ISI, was the ultimate proof.

Benazir Bhutto had many flaws. Her second government was marred by corruption scandals, she was never able to consolidate the civilian and secular institutions she championed in her country, and she was slow in grasping the blessings of economic globalization. But she was right about the most important thing: Pakistan's original sin -- the reason for its instability, its dysfunctional politics, and the penetration of its state and society by religious fanaticism -- was the brutal influence of military rule in that republic's short life. And it still is.


http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articl … 08322.html

Because of previous mistakes made by Pakistan and the U.S., Pakistan is plagued by Islamic fanaticism and widespread corruption.  I wonder if there's any way Pakistan can be turned toward a more secular direction like that of Turkey.

If not, it seems like a war with Pakistan is possible if fundamentalists take over the government.

What do you see as the future of Pakistan, and is there anything we can do to help them move in a better direction?
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6904|London, England
Well one of their state governors just got whacked by one of his own bodyguards so...at the very least I wouldn't say the tide is turning in favour of the non-crazies.

Me @ D&ST Chats wrote:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-12111831

The influential governor of Pakistan's Punjab province, Salman Taseer, has died after being shot by one of his bodyguards in the capital, Islamabad.
Interior Minister Rehman Malik said the guard had told police that he killed Mr Taseer because of the governor's opposition to Pakistan's blasphemy law.
Pakistan https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v83/rac_goshawk/facepalm.gif
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6688|North Carolina
Wow...  it sounds like it's even worse than I assumed.
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5542|foggy bottom
wow, something about muslims from you without even mentioning wahabism.  youre learning turq!
Tu Stultus Es
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6283|...


law is law people, that country is fucked and will be forever until it blows up.
inane little opines
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6688|North Carolina

eleven bravo wrote:

wow, something about muslims from you without even mentioning wahabism.  youre learning turq!
Not to derail things too much here, but why do you bring that up?  I've yet to see anything worth defending about Wahhabism.  To me, it's just as despicable as the other brands of extremism among Islam.
Lotta_Drool
Spit
+350|6466|Ireland

Turquoise wrote:

What do you see as the future of Pakistan, and is there anything we can do to help them move in a better direction?
I would distribute laptops that can only access German porn, Megadeth's music, Brady Bunch reruns, craigslist, and mormon websites.  The remote villages need to be brought into the 20th century and exposed to alternate environments matched to that of radical islamic intellect.  This will under mind the youth's resolve for radical islam and make them easy to pick out later in life (Hajii Dirt).

My only other solution is to distribute blankets filled with the small poxs during the winter or education.

Last edited by Lotta_Drool (2011-01-04 13:27:47)

eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5542|foggy bottom

Turquoise wrote:

eleven bravo wrote:

wow, something about muslims from you without even mentioning wahabism.  youre learning turq!
Not to derail things too much here, but why do you bring that up?  I've yet to see anything worth defending about Wahhabism.  To me, it's just as despicable as the other brands of extremism among Islam.
when have I ever defended wahabism.  my problem with you always bring it up was how much it showed your lack of understanding of the subject of terrorism.  its really obvious youre just parroting what youve heard on the 24 hour news cycle.  Id love for you to show me where i ever defended any kind of religious belief.
Tu Stultus Es
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6688|North Carolina

eleven bravo wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

eleven bravo wrote:

wow, something about muslims from you without even mentioning wahabism.  youre learning turq!
Not to derail things too much here, but why do you bring that up?  I've yet to see anything worth defending about Wahhabism.  To me, it's just as despicable as the other brands of extremism among Islam.
when have I ever defended wahabism.  my problem with you always bring it up was how much it showed your lack of understanding of the subject of terrorism.  its really obvious youre just parroting what youve heard on the 24 hour news cycle.  Id love for you to show me where i ever defended any kind of religious belief.
You accuse a lot of people of "parroting" a lot of things.  So far as I've seen, no one's been able to ever convince you that you might be mistaken about someone, so I'm not going to bother with trying.

Feel free to debate the subject of this thread if you like, although I realize you seem less interested in that sort of thing as compared to ad hominem attacks on anyone that might differ from your opinion or perspective.
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5542|foggy bottom
do a search n00b
Tu Stultus Es
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,816|6389|eXtreme to the maX
The US wanted to provoke a never-ending war in the ME, now its got it.
GG.
Fuck Israel
13urnzz
Banned
+5,830|6781

Dilbert_X wrote:

The US wanted to provoke a never-ending war in the ME, now its got it.
GG.
why would it want to do that?
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6688|North Carolina

Dilbert_X wrote:

The US wanted to provoke a never-ending war in the ME, now its got it.
GG.
Well, they aren't exactly helping themselves either.

It's kind of like what happened throughout a lot of Africa.  Colonialism obviously screwed over that continent, but even after independence, they've spent a lot of time hurting each other.

A lot of the Islamic World is hindering itself through fanaticism that can only partially be blamed on our influence.  There comes a point where a society has to extricate itself from fanaticism.

I know this thread is aimed at what we can do to help, but more than anything, Pakistan has to help itself.  The moderates and liberals have to fight back against the fanatics.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,816|6389|eXtreme to the maX

burnzz wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

The US wanted to provoke a never-ending war in the ME, now its got it.
GG.
why would it want to do that?
It needs an excuse to maintain a huge military, with the cold war over a new excuse is needed.
Fuck Israel
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6729|The Land of Scott Walker
China is a better excuse tbh ...
13urnzz
Banned
+5,830|6781

Dilbert_X wrote:

burnzz wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

The US wanted to provoke a never-ending war in the ME, now its got it.
GG.
why would it want to do that?
It needs an excuse to maintain a huge military, with the cold war over a new excuse is needed.
oh, i thought you'd respond with "it's Bushes fault" or some such.

why don't you just call it 'Imperialism' then, and we can /thread?

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