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2010-12-09 02:32:13
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6347|eXtreme to the maX

Turquoise wrote:

Well for starters, the general public doesn't even understand the basic workings of government.  We're talking about people who can barely balance their checkbooks much less understand foreign policy.   You can feed most of them a big bucket of bullshit, and they wouldn't know the difference.  Hell, how else do you explain most flag-waving retards?
How does this justify the govt lying to the public?
Half the population is of below average intelligence, does that mean the govt can lie to everyone?



Looks like it will be pretty hard to prosecute Assange for anything.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11952817

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2010-12-09 04:41:00)

Fuck Israel
2010-12-09 05:44:13
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+796|6926|United States of America
AR, press organizations usually produce novel content when reporting on news through their own doing. Even if it's some expose, they still have to read it and create a summary of it, but they don't release just the straight documents because that's hardly being a journalist.

Although I suppose you could say Wikileaks has created something new, like that helicopter attack video they edited the shit out of and failed to clearly identify the people holding weapons.
2010-12-09 06:19:20
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|6922|Disaster Free Zone

Dilbert_X wrote:

Looks like it will be pretty hard to prosecute Assange for anything.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11952817
The most interesting part of that whole article.

In addition, in November Mr Assange contacted US Ambassador in London Louis Susman asking for help redacting information that could put individuals at risk. When the US government refused, Mr Assange wrote he therefore concluded the risk of harm was "fanciful" while stating he had no interest in hurting US national security.
2010-12-09 07:35:17
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6646|North Carolina

Shahter wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Humans can be a rather disgusting species a lot of the time, but that's just life.
"humans" is a very loose term. the thing is, when organisations humans organize into reach certain critical mass in number of members, they inevitably loose all human traits and become money/power producing mechanisms. it always happens. to expect nation as a whole to behave according to ones personal notions of good and evil is preposterous.
Absolutely.
2010-12-09 07:40:41
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6646|North Carolina

DrunkFace wrote:

You neither gave examples nor explained why it was necessary, all you did was try to justify was it's not so bad. Just because the average person is dumb as dogshit, does not give you the right to withhold information, especially about things which will directly or indirectly influence their lives. The simple fact of the matter is, the government is elected by the population to work for them, and as such any going ons in the government should be freely available to the people they are working for, and by the various freedom of information laws, they already should be.
Do you think you can conduct war while handing out plans for attack?  Do you think you can conduct an investigation while naming your informants?

That's the kind of shit I'm talking about.

This is information on a need to know basis.

It's not about rights.  It's about getting shit done without having the fickle public get in the way.  The government might be elected by us, but it doesn't work for us.  It works for corporate interests.   Civil rights are just a side benefit of having a less corrupt government than most.  Unfortunately, that is the best that it gets.   What we're experiencing right now is likely the peak of human civilization.  Technology will continue to improve, but society will always be ruled by the few.
2010-12-09 07:44:34
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6646|North Carolina

AussieReaper wrote:

Kmar wrote:

Hypocrisy.
Exactly.


The United States is pleased to announce that it will host UNESCO’s World Press Freedom Day event in 2011, from May 1 - May 3 in Washington, D.C. UNESCO is the only UN agency with the mandate to promote freedom of expression and its corollary, freedom of the press.

The theme for next year’s commemoration will be 21st Century Media: New Frontiers, New Barriers. The United States places technology and innovation at the forefront of its diplomatic and development efforts. New media has empowered citizens around the world to report on their circumstances, express opinions on world events, and exchange information in environments sometimes hostile to such exercises of individuals’ right to freedom of expression. At the same time, we are concerned about the determination of some governments to censor and silence individuals, and to restrict the free flow of information. We mark events such as World Press Freedom Day in the context of our enduring commitment to support and expand press freedom and the free flow of information in this digital age.
It is ironic, but then again, wikileaks should give everyone pause to revisit the rational limits of a free press.  I think Assange has thoroughly crossed that limit.

Dilbert_X wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Well for starters, the general public doesn't even understand the basic workings of government.  We're talking about people who can barely balance their checkbooks much less understand foreign policy.   You can feed most of them a big bucket of bullshit, and they wouldn't know the difference.  Hell, how else do you explain most flag-waving retards?
How does this justify the govt lying to the public?
Half the population is of below average intelligence, does that mean the govt can lie to everyone?
You say that like it doesn't already.

Last edited by Turquoise (2010-12-09 07:45:47)

2010-12-09 07:46:01
Poseidon
Fudgepack DeQueef
+3,253|6779|Long Island, New York
There was absolutely no vetting done on these documents. Any vetting that might've been done was a piss poor effort. Naming informants? Really? What the fuck is useful about that in exposing truths about the government?

Fuck Assange. Not what he's trying to do, but the way he went about doing it.
2010-12-09 10:12:01
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6842|132 and Bush

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-11935539 I love that they are quoting someone who calls themself "coldblood" as a source.
Twitter say they do not comment on ...
You know, I can remember when the BBC was my preffered media outlet for globals news. It was about five minutes ago.

Who the hell is writing these articles? .. read the last sentence http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-11957367
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2010-12-09 11:53:09
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6862|London, England
Cablegate Chatroulette. Just click the red button and ye shall receive a random cable. A good way of stumbling into some utter random shit about countries that barely exist

https://assets.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/international/assets_c/2010/12/new%20story%20button-thumb-313x60-37933.png

Oh and Kmarion, my inner OCD self is saying that you should change the thread title from statelogs to cablegate

Last edited by Mekstizzle (2010-12-09 11:53:56)

2010-12-09 11:56:51
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5478|Cleveland, Ohio
has anyone else lost interest in this stuff besides me?  it was interesting at first but now it has gone completely stupid with all this hacker shit and stuff.  meh.
2010-12-09 12:03:48
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|7013|PNW

^

Not alone.
2010-12-09 13:07:21
jord
Member
+2,382|6919|The North, beyond the wall.
Not really its been a pretty good newsweek regardless of what your stance may be.
2010-12-09 13:09:39
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5478|Cleveland, Ohio

jord wrote:

Not really its been a pretty good newsweek regardless of what your stance may be.
no week is a good newsweek
2010-12-09 13:16:31
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6862|London, England
It's better than most of the shit that gets continuous mainstream coverage, I'd take cablegate over shit like madeline mcann going missing or prince williams (or whichever one of them that's getting married) stupid wedding and shit like that
2010-12-09 13:17:26
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5478|Cleveland, Ohio
well i did like it till it turned stupid.  now its just as gay as that other stuff.
2010-12-09 15:21:19
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6347|eXtreme to the maX

Turquoise wrote:

You say that like it doesn't already.
Which isn't an argument either. You're turning into lowing.
Fuck Israel
2010-12-09 15:49:43
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6646|North Carolina

Dilbert_X wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

You say that like it doesn't already.
Which isn't an argument either. You're turning into lowing.
I'm just saying...  why do you expect the government to tell the truth about everything?   They're not going to disclose confidential information to you willingly, nor should they.
2010-12-10 01:44:47
BVC
Member
+325|6937

Hurricane2k9 wrote:

i'm really curious as to what's in this "insurance file"
It will be either a king hit of secret docs - an administration killer - or an iMax quality rip of a certain Rick Astley video...

No matter how good it is, no form of encryption is perfect.  Even if he doesn't release the magical code, somebody will break it eventually.  Thats why DES bit the dust.

Last edited by Pubic (2010-12-10 01:46:38)

2010-12-13 06:37:09
UON
Junglist Massive
+223|6895
In principle I like the idea of a whistleblowing site.  It's a good idea.

But in practice, I can't think of of credible reason not to release the whole lot at once rather than the drip feeding of the 250k cables. 

Or to not in fact say how many you have and just release the ones that release to specific things where whistleblowing is appropriate.  I.e. when a crime has been covered up or a procedure violated.

Oh, and sup.  Long time no D&ST.
2010-12-13 06:39:49
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5599|London, England
Jungle sucks.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-12-13 06:44:12
UON
Junglist Massive
+223|6895

JohnG@lt wrote:

Jungle sucks.
Oh hey, you must be one of the new resident trolls in the 3 years since I've posted.  Pleased to make your acquaintance.  Thanks for your valuable and noteworthy response.
2010-12-13 06:45:10
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5599|London, England

UON wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Jungle sucks.
Oh hey, you must be one of the new resident trolls in the 3 years since I've posted.  Pleased to make your acquaintance.  Thanks for your valuable and noteworthy response.
I do what I do.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-12-13 06:57:05
UON
Junglist Massive
+223|6895

JohnG@lt wrote:

UON wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Jungle sucks.
Oh hey, you must be one of the new resident trolls in the 3 years since I've posted.  Pleased to make your acquaintance.  Thanks for your valuable and noteworthy response.
I do what I do.
I don't do what I don't do.
2010-12-13 07:43:32
EVieira
Member
+105|6719|Lutenblaag, Molvania

Turquoise wrote:

It is ironic, but then again, wikileaks should give everyone pause to revisit the rational limits of a free press.  I think Assange has thoroughly crossed that limit.
Why is it that now publishing diplomatic information is crossing a line? When the Times published leaks on the Vietnam War, people supportted the paper and the journalist.

Dilbert_X wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Well for starters, the general public doesn't even understand the basic workings of government.  We're talking about people who can barely balance their checkbooks much less understand foreign policy.   You can feed most of them a big bucket of bullshit, and they wouldn't know the difference.  Hell, how else do you explain most flag-waving retards?

Dilbert_X wrote:

How does this justify the govt lying to the public?
Half the population is of below average intelligence, does that mean the govt can lie to everyone?
You say that like it doesn't already.
It does, but it gets harder now. The more the people know, the more mature a democracy is. Transparency is key to a functioning democracy, and freedom of speech is fundamental to that. Start drawing lines and imposing limits and ypou begin to step away from democracy.

The goverments, corporations, etc., need to keep their secrets better kept, and not trying to prosecute Assange. Specially considering he isn't the soure of the leaks.
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered;  the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei  (1564-1642)
2010-12-13 07:51:03
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6646|North Carolina

EVieira wrote:

Why is it that now publishing diplomatic information is crossing a line? When the Times published leaks on the Vietnam War, people supportted the paper and the journalist.
It depends on the kind of leaks.  My personal criteria for deciding when a leak is appropriate is dependent on whether or not it was edited to protect lives.  If a leak exposes our informants or allies and puts their lives at risk, then that's a leak that is irresponsible and worthy of condemnation.

I'd have to look more into the leaks you're referencing to determine what I think of them.  If they did endanger the lives of our allies or informants, then yes, I would consider them deplorable.

How the public reacts isn't likely to be logical.  The Vietnam War was very unpopular, so I'm sure any sort of leak would be supported by a lot of people back then.

EVieira wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

You say that like it doesn't already.
It does, but it gets harder now. The more the people know, the more mature a democracy is. Transparency is key to a functioning democracy, and freedom of speech is fundamental to that. Start drawing lines and imposing limits and ypou begin to step away from democracy.

The goverments, corporations, etc., need to keep their secrets better kept, and not trying to prosecute Assange. Specially considering he isn't the soure of the leaks.
I support leaking things about corporations, because that doesn't usually result in any death.  Leaking wartime secrets is very different.

Even just general leaks on governmental corruption are fine as well.

However, war has to be handled differently.  By its very nature, war is not usually transparent.

Last edited by Turquoise (2010-12-13 07:51:22)

 

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