BF2S Forums Illegal Immigration / Immigrants

whittsend wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

whittsend wrote:

The only negative impact of illegals is that they use services they don't pay for...but as I said, so do many legal workers.  I think we would be better off eliminating the servieces.

You would like to eliminate social services in general?

Yes.  People are complaining their taxes are going to services for people who are not paying for them...this is true, but it isn't just illegals who are doing this.  Social services are based on the concept of wealth redistribution.  I do not favor this idea.  It is not a tenable position to say that the welfare state would work perfectly except for these damned illegals who come in and mooch off it.  The welfare state exists to be mooched off; those who do so legally simply manage to throw a few pennies at that system to defray the costs, while illegals throw none.  Either way, those who are not using the system are the ones who are paying for it.

Do you consider Social Security a social program?  Many illegals pay into SS without ever receiving any benefits.  You call it wealth redistribution, but I do not think this is the best way to describe it.  In that sense, me spending money down at the gas station is wealth redistribution.  Let us get one thing straight:  Welfare and Social Services are not the same.  Welfare is one of many social programs.  I consider Socialized Healthcare to be a social service.  I have no problem paying taxes so everyone in our country can see a doctor and get decent healthcare.  You may not agree with me, and that is fine.

I see a lot of complaining about illegals mooching off "the system."  Well, if we are going to complain about moochers, lets take on the biggest ones-Corporations.  Big Business mooches more off the government than 12 million illegals could any day.  Yes, I agree, illegals do drain social programs.  So do poor people.  More than all those, corporations bleed our whole country dry.  Wal-Mart bleeds our social programs by not providing living wages.  Huge companies like GE and Exxon bleed our resources by getting huge subsidies while not paying any taxes.  Imagine if you had your own company and did not have to pay tax, plus got a nice chunk of change from the government.

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Do you consider Social Security a social program?  Many illegals pay into SS without ever receiving any benefits.

That is not possible unless they are using phoney social security numbers, and if that is the case, you will forgive me for not feeling bad about their 'loss.'

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

You call it wealth redistribution, but I do not think this is the best way to describe it.

How else do you refer to a program that takes money from some and gives it to others?

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

In that sense, me spending money down at the gas station is wealth redistribution.

You have the choice to either not purchase gas, or to decide to purchase it elsewhere.  I have no such luxury with my taxes.

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Let us get one thing straight:  Welfare and Social Services are not the same.  Welfare is one of many social programs.  I consider Socialized Healthcare to be a social service.  I have no problem paying taxes so everyone in our country can see a doctor and get decent healthcare.  You may not agree with me, and that is fine.

Thank you, I do (disagree with you).  I do not like or approve of any program which requires me to surrender that which is mine under the threat of force.

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Well, if we are going to complain about moochers, lets take on the biggest ones-Corporations.  Big Business mooches more off the government than 12 million illegals could any day.

I agree, corporate welfare is just as bad as any other form of wealth redistribution, and quite possibly worse, as; a) they should be able to make their own damn money, and; b) it is destructive to free trade and the greater economic health of the country.

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Wal-Mart bleeds our social programs by not providing living wages.

Yeah, as I noted (maybe in the other thread?) I don't want to get into Wal-Mart.

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Huge companies like GE and Exxon bleed our resources by getting huge subsidies while not paying any taxes.

This is the type of thing which is a bigger problem, but I think you have the wrong companines.  Oil companies are not subsidized.  Steel, textiles, agriculture, logging, and many other otherwise unprofitable American businesses are.  And you are right, it is a travesty: subsidies support high prices, and thus high costs for consumers, and decrease the standard of living.

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Imagine if you had your own company and did not have to pay tax, plus got a nice chunk of change from the government.

Become a farmer...oops, that won't do it either, because something like the four largest agriculture businesses (i.e. agricultural conglomerates like ADM) get something like 80% of the subsidies.  So the family farmer gets the shit end of the stick twice.

In any case, we are way off topic here.

Here is what you need to be American in my opinion....1.) Speak English  2.) Be willing to Fight for your new country 3.) Pay taxes and work legally 4) Have papers that say you are a citizen.  Is this too much to ask for?  Ill give you basic human rights as an illegal but I will not give you the same FKHKEN rights that legal immigrants and other American citizens have.  Why the hell should my hard earned taxes go to support your stupid ass for coming here with nothing but clothes.  Go through the proper channels and laws is all i ask.  But when your corrupy Army actually has fire fights with the border patrol its gone too far.  I think and Iron Curtain is in order.  Electrify the bitch with razor wire at the top and an anti personnel mine field on the other side so if by some miracle you get over the wall you got 1/4 mile of mines to go through.  If you make it through that.......then you deserve citizenship.  But i have a feeling that would do some serious determent.

whittsend wrote:

That is not possible unless they are using phoney social security numbers, and if that is the case, you will forgive me for not feeling bad about their 'loss.'

This happens all the time.  I am just responding to your statement where you said people complain about paying taxes to programs that those who don't pay use.  Illegals use fake SSNs all the time, paying many taxes that will never benefit them.

whittsend wrote:

How else do you refer to a program that takes money from some and gives it to others

Takes money from all, except those who don't pay taxes (of which illegals are one part).

whittsend wrote:

You have the choice to either not purchase gas, or to decide to purchase it elsewhere.  I have no such luxury with my taxes.

So the in order for it to be wealth redistribution, I have to have no choice?

whittsend wrote:

This is the type of thing which is a bigger problem, but I think you have the wrong companines.  Oil companies are not subsidized.

OH REALLY?

whittsend wrote:

2ndLt.Tucker wrote:

But when your corrupy Army actually has fire fights with the border patrol its gone too far.  I think and Iron Curtain is in order.

Is this true?  That might change my opinion on the necessity of a border fence.

Yes there have been accounts where paid Mexican Army troops have been caught smuggling illegals across a border.  Firefights have occured during some of these encounters.  Not sure on casualties tho. Here is a link to just a few of them.....http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=14272

Last edited by 2ndLt.Tucker (2006-05-05 18:58:25)

PspRpg-7 wrote:

WHY don't they fix up their country instead of coming over here and running away from their problems, that AND they don't pay taxes

this is totally stupid

first of all most of the economic problems in their countries are caused by north american industry and foreign policy: see NAFTA

second of all any time there has been any labor or people's movement in these countries (honduras, nicaragua, etc) the US government has literally funded or directly killed the organizers of movements to protect US investments

third of all - get a heart - these people lived in areas with destroyed economies where starvation is a daily threat to their existence, they engage in a journey where the likelihood that they will disappear is 99%, and then they get to a country where their quality of life is that of a slave laborer but atleast they eat.. and yet are still grateful to be here.. and you actually are complaining because it inconveniences you? ever seen undocumented immigrants interviewed? nine out of ten of them say they are coming for the "american dream." Is the American Dream to live in a country that you personally did not build or contribute to, living a life of convience totally incomprehensible to the vast majority of people alive in the world, blaming the exploited minority labor class which provides the conveniences you do not deserve for imaginary problems? If you were to judge by most people who take a negative stance against the undocumented population the answer would be "yes this is the american dream."

fourth - the majority of them do pay taxes, you fool. there is an entire blackmarket industry that makes it's profits selling falsified documents to illegal immigrants. The IRS and social security office report that they recieve tax revenue from four or five people sometimes using the same SS number - the problem is that they will never recieve any benefit for their labor since the money isn't in their name

fifth - the real problem is that their undocumented status combined with the threat of deportation back to their previous homelands makes it unlikely that they will pursue legal recourse against any offenders - allowing employers to violate their basic human rights on a daily basis. on top of this an entire criminal industry makes a living robbing undocumented immigrants for this exact same reason. see; MS13. National police officer associations have passed resolutions which state that they oppose any legislation which makes undocumented workers less likely to co-operate with or contact the police because it effects their ability to catch real criminals.

sixth - all credible studies show a net gain to our national economy. the problem is that there is no legal mechanism by which the federal government can reimburse states like California, Arizona, Texas, and New Mexico for absorbing all of the burden for providing services for undocumented workers.

seventh - it's ridiculous to think that these people are hurting the economy. do you want to pay 5 dollars for a head of lettuce? this country - literally - has always depended either on slave labor or the cheap labor of immigrants who are fleeing conditions far worse than the deplorable conditions they will live under here.  the problem are unchecked human rights abuses buddy, wake up

eighth - this is an election year. this issue is a no brainer. the country benefits tremendously from immigrants.  but instead of focusing on real problems our political parties have decided - once again - to focus on a minority group within the country and demonize them... absorbing our attention into a fruitless debate where all the suggested solutions are absurdities while real policy issues are ignored.

Last edited by ComradeWho (2006-05-05 19:26:00)

ComradeWho wrote:

PspRpg-7 wrote:

WHY don't they fix up their country instead of coming over here and running away from their problems, that AND they don't pay taxes

this is totally stupid

first of all most of the economic problems in their countries are caused by north american industry and foreign policy: see NAFTA

second of all any time there has been any labor or people's movement in these countries (honduras, nicaragua, etc) the US government has literally funded or directly killed the organizers of movements to protect US investments

third of all - get a heart - these people lived in areas with destroyed economies where starvation is a daily threat to their existence, they engage in a journey where the likelihood that they will disappear is 99%, and then they get to a country where their quality of life is that of a slave laborer but atleast they eat.. and yet are still grateful to be here.. and you actually are complaining because it inconveniences you? ever seen undocumented immigrants interviewed? nine out of ten of them say they are coming for the "american dream." Is the American Dream to live in a country that you personally did not build or contribute to, living a life of convience totally incomprehensible to the vast majority of people alive in the world, blaming the exploited minority labor class which provides the conveniences you do not deserve for imaginary problems? If you were to judge by most people who take a negative stance against the undocumented population the answer would be "yes this is the american dream."

fourth - the majority of them do pay taxes, you fool. there is an entire blackmarket industry that makes it's profits selling falsified documents to illegal immigrants. The IRS and social security office report that they recieve tax revenue from four or five people sometimes using the same SS number - the problem is that they will never recieve any benefit for their labor since the money isn't in their name

fifth - the real problem is that their undocumented status combined with the threat of deportation back to their previous homelands makes it unlikely that they will pursue legal recourse against any offenders - allowing employers to violate their basic human rights on a daily basis. on top of this an entire criminal industry makes a living robbing undocumented immigrants for this exact same reason. see; MS13. National police officer associations have passed resolutions which state that they oppose any legislation which makes undocumented workers less likely to co-operate with or contact the police because it effects their ability to catch real criminals.

sixth - all credible studies show a net gain to our national economy. the problem is that there is no legal mechanism by which the federal government can reimburse states like California, Arizona, Texas, and New Mexico for absorbing all of the burden for providing services for undocumented workers.

seventh - it's ridiculous to think that these people are hurting the economy. do you want to pay 5 dollars for a head of lettuce? this country - literally - has always depended either on slave labor or the cheap labor of immigrants who are fleeing conditions far worse than the deplorable conditions they will live under here.  the problem are unchecked human rights abuses buddy, wake up

eighth - this is an election year. this issue is a no brainer. the country benefits tremendously from immigrants.  but instead of focusing on real problems our political parties have decided - once again - to focus on a minority group within the country and demonize them... absorbing our attention into a fruitless debate where all the suggested solutions are absurdities while real policy issues are ignored.

I second that. +1

This is an immigration problem, but only at the top. When you dig deeper into the matter, it becomes obviously an economic issue. Why are we not talking about illegal immigration from Iceland, or the netherlands, or Monaco ? Because those countries have solid economies with decent social systems to provide for their citizens. They also have good schools to provide their people with quality education.

And let's face it, the average mexican or bolivian doesn't have all that. Apart from canada, the US is probably the only country on the american continent to provide decent opportunities for immigrants.
I am certainly not condoning illegal immigration, but what would you do if the only chance you had to feed your family was to try to get a job in the US ? Fill out the papers and wait those 8-12 years for legal citizenship ?
Those people come to the US because their countries are shitholes with no opportunities.

On a side note, I also acknowledge that a big part of our wealth as westerners comes from the exploitation of cheap labor in our homelands and abroad. You think you'd be able to afford Nike clothing if they were produced in the US ?

This is a global issue, not limited to the US. Europe has the same problems along our southern border to north africa.
To me, there are only two solutions:
1) build a new version of the Wall to prevent illegals from entering ( the whole thing, barb wire, electric fences, minefields )
2) help their native countries to better themselves, thereby eradicating the motivation to emigrate in the first place.

Until then, we will have to live with the fact that there are poor and not-so-poor people on this planet, and that the poor will stop at nothing to better themselves. That's just natural.

ComradeWho wrote:

this is totally stupid...

second of all any time there has been any labor or people's movement in these countries (honduras, nicaragua, etc) the US government has literally funded or directly killed the organizers of movements to protect US investments...

Who has the US "literally...directly killed" that was organizing labor movements in these countries?  I find your claim spurious.  I would like you to cite these examples.  I am getting a little tired of all the baseless accusations that fly around because people watch too much television and can't seperate fact and fiction.

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:

B.Schuss wrote:

On a side note, I also acknowledge that a big part of our wealth as westerners comes from the exploitation of cheap labor in our homelands and abroad. You think you'd be able to afford Nike clothing if they were produced in the US ?

Yes, we would easily be able to afford them if they were produced in the U.S. You know how many hugely profitable companies there are in the U.S. that don't use foreign labor? The problem is greedy fucking people in charge of these corportations.

Please enlighten us as to how many 'hugely profitable companies' actually manufacture their products in the US.  I think B.Schuss is right - we'd be paying $300 for a pair of sneakers if they were made here.

I wasn't aware that Air Jordans were that expensive.  Nevertheless, the point stands.  If Americans made them, they'd cost more.

Hmm.  Thought you said you were a libertarian?  Do I have the wrong person?  One would think that a libertarian would believe that a chance to make more money here than is possible where they are from, would be an opportunity for improvement.  It isn't slavery if they can go home whenever they want; if they were to be paid a 'living wage' (code for 'more') there is no inducemet to hire them, because there are already many people here who can (and probably would) work legally for that.

I suspect that you will find that many illegals do improve their situation, and the reason that you continue to see illegals doing the work they do is that more illegals keep coming.  Why do you suppose they would do that if the situation here is not an improvement for them?  Hmmm.

Thats the driving force behind capitalism - profit.  That is what drives our economy.  How do you have capitalism coexist with the idea of a living wage?  I personally believe capitalism is a great idea, and probably the best economic system to date, but strongly disagree with the maximization of profit as the driving force behind it.  So how do you keep companies competitive and keep the incentive of moving up in life while also de-emphasizing profit motive?

Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:

Can you honestly tell me that shoes costing Nike $10 or less to produce and put on shelves couldn't be made in the US without changing the prices?

Didn't say they COULD not.  Said they WOULD not, and I stand by that.

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

So how do you keep companies competitive and keep the incentive of moving up in life while also de-emphasizing profit motive?

You don't.  Humans are selfish creatures.  The only thing you can be sure of is that people will act in a way that maximises their own self interest.  If you rely on their kindness or philanthropy, you will fail.  This applies to the rich, the poor, and everyone in between.  That is why I don't believe that the government should do anything other than ensure that the playing field is level.  Any attempt to adjust outcome is destined to be perverted or fail outright.

Last edited by whittsend (2006-05-09 10:32:39)