BF2S Forums Wikileaks - StateLogs

"The BBC are reporting that PayPal is the latest company to abandon WikiLeaks.

The list now includes their DNS providers (EveryDNS) and their hosts (Amazon). PayPal's move is unlikely to result in many more people boycotting the company, as most knowledgeable on-line users will have been refusing to use them for years for a wide variety of abusive practices."

Source - Slashdot

FEOS wrote:

Both Paul and Huckabee are spot on, btw.

Um...  they are supporting entirely different approaches...

FEOS wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Both Paul and Huckabee are spot on, btw.

Um...  they are supporting entirely different approaches...

Um...irrelevant. They can be supporting two different things and still both be spot on.

Paul is saying we have no grounds to prosecute Assange. And he's right.

Huckabee is saying we should prosecute the PFC who provided the info to Assange for a treasonous piece of shit. And he's right.

I thought Huckabee was also saying we should prosecute Assange.  That's where I assumed you were contradicting yourself.

FEOS wrote:

Ticia wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:

oh shut it ticia.  the problem is people always talk about the US and never their own.  THAT is trolling.  nobody gave a flying fuck that aussie troops were involved in murders or that brit troops are accused of the same thing the US was in abu ghraib.  ya those threads died.  good figure.  call us ignorant?  pfftt shows how clueless you are.

You know who criticized the Australian and British troops? Australia, the UK and every other country. Because time and again Americans don't give a shit about what happens outside of their country, you missed it.

You know who criticized...and prosecuted...American troops? Americans. More so than anyone else. Your blinders are on. Take them off for a bit, will you?

Turq hit the nail on the head earlier. Your blind faith in your own government blinds you to the fact that the kind of stuff you saw in the Wikileaks disclosure happens with every government in the world--to include your own. The fact that your own government was embarrassed collaterally by it--via its own actions--is proof.

For some reason, you refuse to believe that diplomats and diplomacy play this role--interfuckingnationally. Well, guess what? They do, and it does. Read a book on international diplomacy or take a class on it some time--so you can make an educated argument on the topic--rather than blindly flailing about squawking "'Murka's baaad!" It's fucking old.

Blind faith in my government when you're the one making such poor excuses for yours? See I'm all for the truth, if it embarrasses my government be sure I'll be the first one jumping on them.

Give me the book your diplomats studied from because it must be a nice mix of Le Carre novels and the US Weekly. Your educated argument on this topic is diplomacy is all about duplicity, working contrary to international laws and diplomats who are incapable of a responsible behavior but your government is just doing what it has to do to play with the big bad wolves. With that mentality governments keep treating their citizens as dummies and a true informed democracy in action is nothing but a dream.
But because I give more than 2 cents about Murka I truly hope the leaks will at least make some heads roll.

Last edited by Ticia (2010-12-05 16:20:49)

Ticia wrote:

Blind faith in my government when you're the one making such poor excuses for yours? See I'm all for the truth, if it embarrasses my government be sure I'll be the first one jumping on them.

Give me the book your diplomats studied from because it must be a nice mix of Le Carre novels and the US Weekly. Your educated argument on this topic is diplomacy is all about duplicity, working contrary to international laws and diplomats who are incapable of a responsible behavior but your government is just doing what it has to do to play with the big bad wolves. With that mentality governments keep treating their citizens as dummies and a true informed democracy in action is nothing but a dream.
But because I give more than 2 cents about Murka I truly hope the leaks will at least make some heads roll.

But the average person really is an idiot.  Democracy is less important than having a stable republic.

Ticia wrote:

Blind faith in my government when you're the one making such poor excuses for yours? See I'm all for the truth, if it embarrasses my government be sure I'll be the first one jumping on them.

Give me the book your diplomats studied from because it must be a nice mix of Le Carre novels and the US Weekly. Your educated argument on this topic is diplomacy is all about duplicity, working contrary to international laws and diplomats who are incapable of a responsible behavior but your government is just doing what it has to do to play with the big bad wolves. With that mentality governments keep treating their citizens as dummies and a true informed democracy in action is nothing but a dream.
But because I give more than 2 cents about Murka I truly hope the leaks will at least make some heads roll.

Why do I feel like I'm talking to Dilbert here?

There's no duplicity or international law breaking. Any allusions to Le Carre or his ilk are all in your head. You have some notion that diplomacy is pure as the driven snow...and that fault is purely of your own making. It is not, nor has it ever been, like that. It started out far more nefarious than it is today, but it retains its roots.

Diplomacy is a tool of national power, used to achieve national security objectives. It has no anthropomorphic qualities, as you attribute to it.

The US diplomatic corps has not violated international law. It has behaved exactly as the diplomatic corps of every other country on the face of the earth has behaved for decades, if not centuries. The only difference is that all of our business has been "outed" by someone with a hard-on for us. If the tables were turned and Wikileaks had all that information on another country's diplomatic cables, would you be squawking so loudly? Because you would have seen exactly the same kind of information. Guaran-fucking-teed.

The only head that will roll in the US over this is the one that belongs to PFC Manning, who provided the information to Assange. And rightly so.

Those who are "truly informed" on what diplomacy is and what functions it performs are not in the least bit bothered by the content, but by the fact the leaks happened in the first place. Those who are less informed are more upset by the content, because they don't understand the context of what they are reading.

The PKK is definitely a terror group, but Turkey's treatment of Kurds is pretty horrendous in its own right.  Granted, Turkey has been even worse towards Armenians.

M.O.A.B wrote:

Ticia wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Why do I feel like I'm talking to Dilbert here?

There's no duplicity or international law breaking. Any allusions to Le Carre or his ilk are all in your head. You have some notion that diplomacy is pure as the driven snow...and that fault is purely of your own making. It is not, nor has it ever been, like that. It started out far more nefarious than it is today, but it retains its roots.

Diplomacy is a tool of national power, used to achieve national security objectives. It has no anthropomorphic qualities, as you attribute to it.

The US diplomatic corps has not violated international law. It has behaved exactly as the diplomatic corps of every other country on the face of the earth has behaved for decades, if not centuries. The only difference is that all of our business has been "outed" by someone with a hard-on for us. If the tables were turned and Wikileaks had all that information on another country's diplomatic cables, would you be squawking so loudly? Because you would have seen exactly the same kind of information. Guaran-fucking-teed.

The only head that will roll in the US over this is the one that belongs to PFC Manning, who provided the information to Assange. And rightly so.

Those who are "truly informed" on what diplomacy is and what functions it performs are not in the least bit bothered by the content, but by the fact the leaks happened in the first place. Those who are less informed are more upset by the content, because they don't understand the context of what they are reading.

Where to start?

Violation of international laws:
Hillary Clinton was responsible for ordering U.S. diplomatic figures to engage in espionage in the United Nations, in violation of the international covenants to which the U.S. has signed up.

Duplicity:
US has been supporting the PKK (Kurdistan Workers' Party) a Marxist-Leninist rebel organization, in attacks again Turkey (their ally). The PKK was classified by the US State Department as a terrorist organization in 1979.

Wiki wrote:

The head of the PKK's militant arm, Murat Karayilan, claimed that Iran attempted to recruit the PKK to attack coalition forces, adding that Kurdish guerrillas had launched a clandestine war in north-western Iran, ambushing Iranian troops.

Giving them a bit of support seems to ensure they stay out of the fighting in Iraq or working for Iran.

The UK has also shown support for the PKK, even though it will be listed as a terrorist organisation here as well.

Is it right? No. But it can be the lesser of two evils at times.

Some countries when they want to support some terrorist group have the decency of naming them freedom fighters. Calling them terrorists and then backing them up against an ally and using the lesser of two evils argument is weak.

Turquoise wrote:

Ticia wrote:

Some countries when they want to support some terrorist group have the decency of naming them freedom fighters. Calling them terrorists and then backing them up against an ally and using the lesser of two evils argument is weak.

Well, if we're aiding them, yeah, we should probably stop calling them terrorists.

And to be honest, Turkey is a shitty ally.  They really serve very little of a purpose to us anymore.  Trading with them is one thing, but as far as strategy goes, they're not very reliable.

When you figure in their problems with human rights violations concerning Kurds, that only makes them less desirable as an ally.  And then you have the whole denial of the Armenian Genocide.   They might be more Westernized than a lot of other Muslim-majority countries, but they still have a long way to go.

Albania is a better ally anyway.

It's like Pakistan, a country whose security services both help and fight the same group, and do a better job of the former.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/mobile/uk-11937110

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/de … e-timeline

Why are people so dense to believe that classified material exists solely to repress the population?

People over here... every time something negative about the US gets in the news they absolutely LOVE it (in contrast; positive news = propaganda).. hell - parliament is now going to have a debate over the EU's stance on Assange and that he should be protected from the US.

(Which I believe is quite ridiculous.. he's not a EU citizen, he's out to hurt the US and is spraying around classified documents, which is an offense in every nation of the world (atleast, for that nation). It'd be extremely hypocritical to defend him hiding behind freedom of speech here.)

Last edited by dayarath (2010-12-07 11:00:51)