BF2S Forums Pakistan: Yet Another Islamist State

jsnipy wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

jsnipy wrote:

CNN chooses what to report.

Just like any other source does...

I agree. I did not mean that in the same way people rag on Fox news. Its just that, all we hear about are horrible fringe cases. We think we have such worldly insight because of the news.

padding ratings, mate.

that's why fringe stories are reported on, shock value. Don't really see the problem here. you want real news, read a news magazine or something.

jsnipy wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

jsnipy wrote:

CNN chooses what to report.

Just like any other source does...

I agree. I did not mean that in the same way people rag on Fox news. Its just that, all we hear about are horrible fringe cases. We think we have such worldly insight because of the news.

A very unjust law in a prominent country isn't a fringe case -- mostly because Pakistan isn't the only country with this law.

Turquoise wrote:

jsnipy wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Just like any other source does...

I agree. I did not mean that in the same way people rag on Fox news. Its just that, all we hear about are horrible fringe cases. We think we have such worldly insight because of the news.

A very unjust law in a prominent country isn't a fringe case -- mostly because Pakistan isn't the only country with this law.

I didn't RTFA, so it is the main gov't not some local faction?

jsnipy wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Trotskygrad wrote:

Massive innovation there. Although CNN isn't as bad as Fox because it ACTUALLY reports important shit when it happens, outside of party lines  and doesn't just air tributes to Reagan.

I just find it odd that criticisms of Christianity and right wing nutjobs in America are understandably met with condemnations of the people involved, but mentioning the equivalent problems with Islam often involve a lot of dodging and excuses.

I don't give Islam any more leeway than I give any other religion.  Pakistan and other Islamic nations that punish blasphemy deserve criticism, and I just figured there would be a little more discussion in this thread than dismissive sarcasm.

That is true, its almost like a combination Stockholm syndrome (except the captures are future tense) and white guilt.

Pretty much...  and white guilt really has to be one of the most ridiculous things in Western culture.   I don't hold any individual responsible for actions made by their ancestors.  You can only be held responsible for your own actions.

Trotskygrad wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Trotskygrad wrote:

Massive innovation there. Although CNN isn't as bad as Fox because it ACTUALLY reports important shit when it happens, outside of party lines  and doesn't just air tributes to Reagan.

I just find it odd that criticisms of Christianity and right wing nutjobs in America are understandably met with condemnations of the people involved, but mentioning the equivalent problems with Islam often involve a lot of dodging and excuses.

I don't give Islam any more leeway than I give any other religion.  Pakistan and other Islamic nations that punish blasphemy deserve criticism, and I just figured there would be a little more discussion in this thread than dismissive sarcasm.

eh?

everyone knows by now that Islam is a very intolerant religion in certain widespread modern interpretations.

people just don't criticize it to be politically correct, because bashing a religion = bad, after Hitler and the Crusades.

I don't see the same reluctance regarding Christianity.  Nevertheless, I believe it is the duty of rational society to criticize religion.  There's so much of it that holds back social progress.   It took a lot of criticism of certain religious interpretations to move toward gay rights, for example.

Trotskygrad wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Trotskygrad wrote:

eh?

everyone knows by now that Islam is a very intolerant religion in certain widespread modern interpretations.

people just don't criticize it to be politically correct, because bashing a religion = bad, after Hitler and the Crusades.

I don't see the same reluctance regarding Christianity.  Nevertheless, I believe it is the duty of rational society to criticize religion.  There's so much of it that holds back social progress.   It took a lot of criticism of certain religious interpretations to move toward gay rights, for example.

ah well Christianity is the religion of the majority, so criticizing it is fine. It's been the dominant religion in the west for a long time, and the west has dominated the world for a long time.

I know what you mean.  I understand that's how PC works, but I refuse to abide by it.

Political correctness is the sort of thing that should be shunned at nearly every opportunity, because it doesn't allow people to be honest.

Trotskygrad wrote:

well then you look like a nutjob.

sucks that that's how american politics works, but hey, that's the system, lie or doctor the truth to get into office.

Unfortunately, it's not just an American thing either.  Geert Wilders might be extreme, but not everything he said about Islam is untrue.  Yet, he's basically a pariah now for speaking out against some of the things that have happened to critics of Islam in his country.

Granted, I'd rather appear to be a nutjob than inadvertently support the real nutjobs -- fanatical Muslims (or fanatical followers of any religion for that matter).

Trotskygrad wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Trotskygrad wrote:

well then you look like a nutjob.

sucks that that's how american politics works, but hey, that's the system, lie or doctor the truth to get into office.

Unfortunately, it's not just an American thing either.  Geert Wilders might be extreme, but not everything he said about Islam is untrue.  Yet, he's basically a pariah now for speaking out against some of the things that have happened to critics of Islam in his country.

Granted, I'd rather appear to be a nutjob than inadvertently support the real nutjobs -- fanatical Muslims (or fanatical followers of any religion for that matter).

well in europe there's more moderate muslims, so your point regarding muslims in those other states might not be as well heard.

While it is true that most Muslims who immigrate to the West tend to be more moderate, there still seems to be a noticeable difference between Muslims that immigrate to Europe and Muslims that immigrate here.

There would seem to be fewer problems with fanatical Islam in America than in places like the Netherlands.

For example, when the Mohammed cartoons were spreading through parts of Europe, a lot of violence and death threats resulted from it.  In particular, Denmark and the Netherlands had issues with this.

In America, we never really saw the same problems.  It would appear that Muslims who come to America seem to either have or develop a better sense of the freedom of speech.   Unfortunately, groups like CAIR seem to be rising in power and have successfully gotten some networks to self-censor (like Comedy Central), but for the most part, we don't have problems with Muslims committing violent acts over criticism of their religion or Mohammed.

If anything, we've got bigger problems with violence being directed toward Muslims here, but that's another discussion.  I am fair about this, so I fully support Muslims being able to build a community center at Ground Zero -- and the hysterical reactions of people regarding that whole issue have been rather depressing and embarassing.

But again, in Europe, there would appear to be a pattern of appeasement that is disturbing.  Lars Vilks is the latest cartoonist that has had to fear for his life due to criticizing Islam, so I guess Sweden is the latest country to have issues with fanatical Muslims.

Turquoise wrote:

Ticia wrote:

She must be interested in becoming a martyr. That has to be the only reason why you'd want to be a Catholic in Pakistan. Her Pope is too busy demonising Harry Potter to give her a had right now.

Well, following any religion is generally going to be the result of one of the following:

1) you were born into it

2) you converted due to exposure to the faith or a personal experience

3) you were coerced into religion (which can be through family similar to #1 or through the state)

Choosing to be a Catholic in Pakistan is more common than you'd think.  There are a few million Christians and Hindus in Pakistan.

Selecting a religion other than Islam there isn't a statement of martyrdom, but with laws like this one in place, you're surely a second class citizen there.

1% of Catholics in Pakistan makes them far from common.

Plus is not even about the laws, this woman and her family will always be prosecuted, if she gets out of prison she'll be killed on the streets like all the others before her. It will be common sense to get out as soon as possible instead of playing this stupid game but religion and common sense are incompatible.

Turquoise wrote:

Ticia wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Well, following any religion is generally going to be the result of one of the following:

1) you were born into it

2) you converted due to exposure to the faith or a personal experience

3) you were coerced into religion (which can be through family similar to #1 or through the state)

Choosing to be a Catholic in Pakistan is more common than you'd think.  There are a few million Christians and Hindus in Pakistan.

Selecting a religion other than Islam there isn't a statement of martyrdom, but with laws like this one in place, you're surely a second class citizen there.

1% of Catholics in Pakistan makes them far from common.

Plus is not even about the laws, this woman and her family will always be prosecuted, if she gets out of prison she'll be killed on the streets like all the others before her. It will be common sense to get out as soon as possible instead of playing this stupid game but religion and common sense are incompatible.

Well, common sense would preclude believing in any religion to begin with.

That's beside the point though.  I know you're not intending this, but it does kind of sound like you're making excuses for the way they do things.

Just because someone is of a religious minority does not justify being treated as a second class citizen or being threatened with death over a mere statement.   This is why I would rather defend this Catholic than criticize her for not moving.   The government of Pakistan is in the wrong here, not her.

Is this a one time affair or something?
In places like Pakistan, India and so on you are marked since the day you were born. If is not religion is your caste, your town, your ugly mug.
Pakistan is not going to change because the western world thinks they're inhumane. And is naive of us to think otherwise.

Turquoise wrote:

Ticia wrote:

Is this a one time affair or something?
In places like Pakistan, India and so on you are marked since the day you were born. If is not religion is your caste, your town, your ugly mug.
Pakistan is not going to change because the western world thinks they're inhumane. And is naive of us to think otherwise.

I'm not expecting Pakistan to change that much, but we can at least make a statement by withdrawing aid to them when they support things like this.  Currently, they receive billions from us.  They may be rising economically, but they still depend on a lot of foreign aid -- most notably from us.

Also, it would be nice if we did the same to Afghanistan.  If we're going to the trouble of rebuilding this country, we shouldn't allow these people to put forth oppressive laws.   Democracy is worthless without the freedom of speech or the freedom of religion, so installing them in countries that lack these things is an act in futility.

Turquie, what got into you?

It would be nice if we so called civilized first world admit the real reason we are there is to get ours in the end. Our moral superiority is bogus, in fact we're even worse...pretending we give a damn, shame on us.

Ticia wrote:

Turquie, what got into you?

It would be nice if we so called civilized first world admit the real reason we are there is to get ours in the end. Our moral superiority is bogus, in fact we're even worse...pretending we give a damn, shame on us.

I agree with Bravo on this.  It's not even about pretending anyway.  If we truly didn't give a damn, we'd have just nuked Afghanistan and left -- which admittedly is an appealing notion at times.

I'm not saying we're saints, but I think there's a certain level of human decency that we can support via diplomacy.  Tying certain social conditions to our funding of Pakistan is a good thing, because otherwise, we're literally funding an oppressive regime just to subvert another one.  This applies to both Pakistan and Afghanistan.

When it comes to nation building, we're currently halfassing it.  Either you put into place a strong authoritarian government that matches your interests, or you install a republic with certain core freedoms present to protect the rights of minorities.

All we're doing right now is helping to build a weak central government that is ignored by various tribal groups that we're paying off just to get rid of the Taliban.   In other cases, we're paying off the Taliban itself.

With Pakistan, we're funding a government that is incapable of controlling the remote regions that the Taliban is hiding in but still apparently capable of oppressing religious minorities.   Add to this the fact that their main intelligence agency (the ISI) has Taliban sympathizers embedded in it, and you have a pretty shitty ally to work with.