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2010-11-15 16:06:45
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5636|London, England

JohnG@lt wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

His answer was 'Well in that case it's no more bs then any other country', so the US is hardly exceptional.
At the time the phrase was coined, America was indeed exceptional. A Republic where the people had a voice rather than monarchial Europe. Nowadays? We've been copied so much that we're the rule rather than the exception. Instead, the despot monarchial types are the exception.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-11-15 16:10:36
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6748
come on, galt. not you, too?

here's the ONE paragraph

The position of the Americans is therefore quite exceptional, and it may be believed that no democratic people will ever be placed in a similar one. Their strictly Puritanical origin, their exclusively commercial habits, even the country they inhabit, which seems to divert their minds from the pursuit of science, literature, and the arts, the proximity of Europe, which allows them to neglect these pursuits without relapsing into barbarism, a thousand special causes, of which I have only been able to point out the most important, have singularly concurred to fix the mind of the American upon purely practical objects. His passions, his wants, his education, and everything about him seem to unite in drawing the native of the United States earthward; his religion alone bids him turn, from time to time, a transient and distracted glance to heaven. Let us cease, then, to view all democratic nations under the example of the American people.[4]
brinson, i made an especially relevant part BOLD for you. is that ok? clearer now?

it's to do with puritan beliefs, specifically calvinist pre-destination and the idea of a 'chosen' nation, a covenant of god's people being guided by an unseen and determinist hand towards a privileged fate. it's to do with those puritans setting a moral and social example to the rest of the world, as far as democratic and liberal values go - 'the city on the hill'. it's not so much about concrete systems of republicanism. it's definitely not to do with the achievements of american citizens in terms of engineering and philanthropy.

7 pages now and maybe we'll finally get to a point where people know what the fucking dead-basic fundamental principle is

Last edited by Uzique (2010-11-15 16:13:06)

libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2010-11-15 16:11:30
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,816|6384|eXtreme to the maX
Lets use this definition (from wiki ).

"a unique American ideology, based on liberty, egalitarianism, individualism, populism and laissez-faire"

Nothing to do with dam building or Africa or space rockets.

I'd say the US has failed historically and still fails on all counts.
Fuck Israel
2010-11-15 16:14:17
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6748
individualism died with transcendentalism and it's all been fucked up shit creek ever since

a mongrel-breed of pragmatic ideology is the best you have now.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2010-11-15 16:24:02
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5636|London, England

Uzique wrote:

come on, galt. not you, too?

here's the ONE paragraph

The position of the Americans is therefore quite exceptional, and it may be believed that no democratic people will ever be placed in a similar one. Their strictly Puritanical origin, their exclusively commercial habits, even the country they inhabit, which seems to divert their minds from the pursuit of science, literature, and the arts, the proximity of Europe, which allows them to neglect these pursuits without relapsing into barbarism, a thousand special causes, of which I have only been able to point out the most important, have singularly concurred to fix the mind of the American upon purely practical objects. His passions, his wants, his education, and everything about him seem to unite in drawing the native of the United States earthward; his religion alone bids him turn, from time to time, a transient and distracted glance to heaven. Let us cease, then, to view all democratic nations under the example of the American people.[4]
brinson, i made an especially relevant part BOLD for you. is that ok? clearer now?

it's to do with puritan beliefs, specifically calvinist pre-destination and the idea of a 'chosen' nation, a covenant of god's people being guided by an unseen and determinist hand towards a privileged fate. it's to do with those puritans setting a moral and social example to the rest of the world, as far as democratic and liberal values go - 'the city on the hill'. it's not so much about concrete systems of republicanism. it's definitely not to do with the achievements of american citizens in terms of engineering and philanthropy.

7 pages now and maybe we'll finally get to a point where people know what the fucking dead-basic fundamental principle is
Ahh, ok, you're talking about the Enlightenment. Yeah, that's dead and long gone.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-11-15 17:22:37
13rin
Member
+977|6757

Uzique wrote:

brinson the fucking tocqueville passage specifying what american exceptionalism is AS A POLITICAL IDEOLOGY is about 3 fucking paragraphs long. JUST. GO. AND. READ. IT. it's not fucking hard. no, no, no. american exceptionalism is not about 'exceptional' behaviour or 'exceptional' contributions to the sciences, humanities or arts by fucking americans. JESUS H. CHRIST.

has it seriously taken 6 pages of people saying "no, that's not what we're talking about"?

IT'S
THREE
PARAGRAPHS
LONG
Honestly, I hadn't bothered to read it -until you caught me trolling Dilbo.  I went with G@lts post and really didn't read this thread. 

After a glance, I'd drunkenly argue that any civilization takes exception in its own right. 

Me? I redefine American Excptionalism as "we're badass."  I bet I could even outshoot dil -with his own pistols... Because I a Merican'.
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
2010-11-15 17:26:43
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,816|6384|eXtreme to the maX
I bet I could even outshoot dil -with his own pistols... Because I a Merican'.
Thats your cultural arrogance and misguided belief in your exceptionalism talking
Fuck Israel
2010-11-15 17:33:11
13rin
Member
+977|6757

Dilbert_X wrote:

I bet I could even outshoot dil -with his own pistols... Because I a Merican'.
Thats your cultural arrogance and misguided belief in your exceptionalism talking
heh heh....  Or because I'm a hell of a shot with a pistol.
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
2010-11-15 17:54:15
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,816|6384|eXtreme to the maX
heh heh....  Or because I'm a hell of a shot with a pistol.
OK, I've shot for England, was on the team which beat the British Army, I'm currently club champion across six matches and I was state champion last year - in the process I beat the Australian #1.

Your belief in your personal exceptionalism is based on .... ?

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2010-11-15 17:56:27)

Fuck Israel
2010-11-15 17:55:56
jsnipy
...
+3,277|6800|...

People in Nazi Germany thought they were exceptional at one point
2010-11-15 18:29:30
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6748
different ideology, though.

nationalist socialism =/= democratic exceptionalism

i'd say people in nazi germany had a similar patriotic fervor... but stemming from and manifested in very different ways...
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2010-11-15 18:45:03
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,054|7050|PNW

More on topic, the OP has a simple answer. "American exceptionalism" is a term that is so loosely defined and has been adjusted on several occasions to fit the needs of politics. More recently, it has been associated with America's significant role in the world economy and the responsibilities associated with that. Whether or not we're actually fulfilling these responsibilities is a different question altogether.

"Exceptional" itself means "unusual, but not unique." Earlier, I wrote:
I have no idea why any American would resent the potential for people's lots improving in other countries. I'd consider it a cultural victory, even if passive.
I hope more countries continue to adopt aspects of the American model and try to improve on them. And if they can come up with something even better that works, great.

====

Dilbert_X wrote:

I never did. I jumped in on the US vs European morality argument.
The only country claiming the high ground in morality is the US, which I think we've agreed is BS.
That's a bit misleading. In any discussion about American exceptionalism, comparisons of the US to other powers always surface. European morality isn't so much boasted of as implied by lopsided stabs at US history.

Shahter wrote:

nobody has any moral supperriority in this regard, certrainly not those whos nation was the only one to actaully use nuclear weapons - and on cities full of civilians.
Which opens up a completely different can of worms: that of how many Japanese would have died under continued low-altitude firebombing and a land invasion. But that's a subject for a nuclear ethics topic.

DBBrinson1 wrote:

Wright Brothers.
Panama Canal.
Hoover Dam.
Put a man on the moon.
That's not really "American exceptionalism," but ok...
2010-11-15 19:13:43
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,816|6384|eXtreme to the maX
That's a bit misleading. In any discussion about American exceptionalism, comparisons of the US to other powers always surface. European morality isn't so much boasted of as implied by lopsided stabs at US history.
'Exceptionalism' can only be comparative. US history is no better or worse than European history, in many cases its worse.
Fuck Israel
2010-11-15 20:16:02
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6689|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

That's a bit misleading. In any discussion about American exceptionalism, comparisons of the US to other powers always surface. European morality isn't so much boasted of as implied by lopsided stabs at US history.
'Exceptionalism' can only be comparative. US history is no better or worse than European history, in many cases its worse.
Looking at the period from when American history starts onward...not so much.

Of course, Europe's got all that great history that America bypassed: the Dark Ages, the Inquisition, the Plague, the Crusades.

Probably best that we stick with 1776 onward so you can beat us about the head and neck with slavery and our treatment of the Indians while ignoring Colonial Europe's treatment of indigenous peoples.

All of the above said to point out both sides of the issue have their own warts, and they're equally ugly.

One thing that cannot be argued is America's rise from scrabbling former colonies to superpower status in less than 200 years. Based on those traits that Dilbert said didn't exist/we failed at: individualism, laissez-faire, liberty, etc. Primary among those being individualism, IMO. Arising from that comes personal accountability, work ethic, entrepreneurial spirit, and a desire for minimal government.

It doesn't mean we're not team players--it just means that we are, culturally, a self-reliant people. And that is reflected in our foundational document and general attitude. Probably comes from the colonial roots. I'd be willing to bet the Aussies are quite similar.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2010-11-15 20:18:24
13rin
Member
+977|6757

Dilbert_X wrote:

heh heh....  Or because I'm a hell of a shot with a pistol.
OK, I've shot for England, was on the team which beat the British Army, I'm currently club champion across six matches and I was state champion last year - in the process I beat the Australian #1.

Your belief in your personal exceptionalism is based on .... ?
#1 Australian =/=  Any aMerican
I'd still out shoot you in my backyard, with your gun.
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
2010-11-15 20:36:35
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,816|6384|eXtreme to the maX
#1 Australian =/=  Any aMerican
LOL
I'd still out shoot you in my backyard, with your gun.
I'll outshoot you anywhere, any time, with any gun, in any match.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2010-11-15 20:42:39)

Fuck Israel
2010-11-15 20:39:33
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,816|6384|eXtreme to the maX
America's rise from scrabbling former colonies to superpower status in less than 200 years =/= liberty, egalitarianism, individualism, populism and laissez-faire

So you've spent a lot on weapons, and where's the entrepreneurial spirit here?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11332635

Stick to the measures which are relevant to the definition, and without extrapolating to some other irrelevant measure, or I'll argue I'm more intelligent than you because I'm taller which is proven by me having a two storey house.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2010-11-15 20:51:06)

Fuck Israel
2010-11-15 22:46:36
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,054|7050|PNW

The entrepreneurial spirit is under the thumb of uncontrollable circumstances. I've been managing to slip through relatively unscathed, at least, with my own business.

Dilbert_X wrote:

That's a bit misleading. In any discussion about American exceptionalism, comparisons of the US to other powers always surface. European morality isn't so much boasted of as implied by lopsided stabs at US history.
'Exceptionalism' can only be comparative. US history is no better or worse than European history, in many cases its worse.
I hope we can agree that in many cases, it is not.
2010-11-15 23:09:41
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,816|6384|eXtreme to the maX
Its barely 'exceptional', and by many of the measures we are talking about has lagged Europe.
Fuck Israel
2010-11-15 23:12:50
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,054|7050|PNW

You can, at the very least, blame the term on the French.
2010-11-15 23:15:00
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,816|6384|eXtreme to the maX
The problem with the French is that they don't have a word for entrepreneur.
Fuck Israel
2010-11-15 23:18:49
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,054|7050|PNW

Dilbert_X wrote:

many of the measures we are talking about has lagged Europe.
Are you talking about social issues or the resolution of either (or both) of the world wars?
2010-11-15 23:24:18
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,816|6384|eXtreme to the maX

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

many of the measures we are talking about has lagged Europe.
Are you talking about social issues or the resolution of either (or both) of the world wars?
I'm talking about "liberty, egalitarianism, individualism, populism and laissez-faire", not wars - unless I can bring up Vietnam, Iraq I and II, Afghanistan and the various fascist militias and terrorist groups the US has funded since WW2

"liberty, egalitarianism, individualism, populism and laissez-faire" within US borders too.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2010-11-15 23:24:45)

Fuck Israel
2010-11-16 01:21:39
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,054|7050|PNW

Oh, like the militias and terrorist groups countries such as Israel and the UK never funded. But I get your angle.
2010-11-16 01:24:56
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|7053|Moscow, Russia

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Shahter wrote:

nobody has any moral supperriority in this regard, certrainly not those whos nation was the only one to actaully use nuclear weapons - and on cities full of civilians.
Which opens up a completely different can of worms: that of how many Japanese would have died under continued low-altitude firebombing and a land invasion...
... so you nuked them, just like that - out of consern for their lives. >.<
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.

 

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