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2010-11-03 08:19:51
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6602|North Carolina
So, in the last few years, we've seen two significant referendum choices by Californians.

Proposition 8 was passed -- effectively banning gay marriage until the courts decided to intervene.

Proposition 19 failed -- keeping illegal an already easily available substance both illegally and through a superficial "medical" system.

And much earlier of course, California also brought us President Reagan.

Nowadays, it seems like the only thing California has been significantly liberal about is illegal immigrants.  Otherwise, it seems like California is increasingly influenced by religious conservatives and other special interest groups that are decidedly conservative on social issues.

Economically, California is still quite liberal about certain things, but socially, they seem to be less liberal than the Northeast.

What do you guys think?
2010-11-03 08:22:32
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6913
state of extremes.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
2010-11-03 08:23:53
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5555|London, England

Cybargs wrote:

state of extremes.
San Francisco vs Orange County. If you aren't an extreme wingnut, you aren't getting elected in either place.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-11-03 08:23:56
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6327|North Tonawanda, NY
Is it that the state isn't liberal?  Or is it that the conservatives vote in greater numbers?
2010-11-03 08:29:27
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6602|North Carolina

SenorToenails wrote:

Is it that the state isn't liberal?  Or is it that the conservatives vote in greater numbers?
I think the extremes analogy works.  There aren't that many extreme conservatives in NY.

In California, they have both extremes, so the net effect is actually more moderate (or swinging) than California's image suggests.
2010-11-03 08:30:47
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5555|London, England

Turquoise wrote:

SenorToenails wrote:

Is it that the state isn't liberal?  Or is it that the conservatives vote in greater numbers?
I think the extremes analogy works.  There aren't that many extreme conservatives in NY.

In California, they have both extremes, so the net effect is actually more moderate (or swinging) than California's image suggests.
We have extremists and religious nutters here. They're just relegated to the rural parts of western New York and thus don't have popular support.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-11-03 08:31:56
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6602|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

SenorToenails wrote:

Is it that the state isn't liberal?  Or is it that the conservatives vote in greater numbers?
I think the extremes analogy works.  There aren't that many extreme conservatives in NY.

In California, they have both extremes, so the net effect is actually more moderate (or swinging) than California's image suggests.
We have extremists and religious nutters here. They're just relegated to the rural parts of western New York and thus don't have popular support.
Well that's good.  At least you keep them contained.

In California, they would seem to be hijacking the system.
2010-11-03 08:35:13
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5555|London, England

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


I think the extremes analogy works.  There aren't that many extreme conservatives in NY.

In California, they have both extremes, so the net effect is actually more moderate (or swinging) than California's image suggests.
We have extremists and religious nutters here. They're just relegated to the rural parts of western New York and thus don't have popular support.
Well that's good.  At least you keep them contained.

In California, they would seem to be hijacking the system.
I'd say they're a good counterweight instead. If the ultra leftists took full control they would destroy the 4th largest economy in the world.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-11-03 08:36:56
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6602|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:


We have extremists and religious nutters here. They're just relegated to the rural parts of western New York and thus don't have popular support.
Well that's good.  At least you keep them contained.

In California, they would seem to be hijacking the system.
I'd say they're a good counterweight instead. If the ultra leftists took full control they would destroy the 4th largest economy in the world.
I can agree with that, but so far as I've seen, the average New Yorker is left of center, not leftist.
2010-11-03 08:45:12
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6327|North Tonawanda, NY

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

I think the extremes analogy works.  There aren't that many extreme conservatives in NY.

In California, they have both extremes, so the net effect is actually more moderate (or swinging) than California's image suggests.
We have extremists and religious nutters here. They're just relegated to the rural parts of western New York and thus don't have popular support.
Well that's good.  At least you keep them contained.

In California, they would seem to be hijacking the system.
Yes, let us keep them contained.  Now we all know exactly where to look when we want to feel better than everyone else, right?

NYC has its share of complete whackjobs, and the average person in WNY is not some lunatic.  I think some people in this forum believe they live in an ivory tower.
2010-11-03 08:46:47
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6602|North Carolina

SenorToenails wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:


We have extremists and religious nutters here. They're just relegated to the rural parts of western New York and thus don't have popular support.
Well that's good.  At least you keep them contained.

In California, they would seem to be hijacking the system.
Yes, let us keep them contained.  Now we all know exactly where to look when we want to feel better than everyone else, right?

NYC has its share of complete whackjobs, and the average person in WNY is not some lunatic.  I think some people in this forum believe they live in an ivory tower.
I think it's fair to say that extremists of any persuasion are undesirable people.  It's not a matter of feeling better about yourself -- it's about avoiding contact with the crazies.
2010-11-03 08:46:49
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5555|London, England

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


Well that's good.  At least you keep them contained.

In California, they would seem to be hijacking the system.
I'd say they're a good counterweight instead. If the ultra leftists took full control they would destroy the 4th largest economy in the world.
I can agree with that, but so far as I've seen, the average New Yorker is left of center, not leftist.
I was talking about California. As for New York, our politicians are firmly in the pocket of the unions which is why our debt is so ridiculous, our school system is failing and our infrastructure projects are so prohibitively expensive they don't get done except in emergencies.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-11-03 08:47:47
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6602|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

I'd say they're a good counterweight instead. If the ultra leftists took full control they would destroy the 4th largest economy in the world.
I can agree with that, but so far as I've seen, the average New Yorker is left of center, not leftist.
I was talking about California. As for New York, our politicians are firmly in the pocket of the unions which is why our debt is so ridiculous, our school system is failing and our infrastructure projects are so prohibitively expensive they don't get done except in emergencies.
California's problem is that they have a massive amount of debt as well -- largely thanks to a terrible referendum system for taxation.

Last edited by Turquoise (2010-11-03 08:48:15)

2010-11-03 08:48:10
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5555|London, England

SenorToenails wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:


We have extremists and religious nutters here. They're just relegated to the rural parts of western New York and thus don't have popular support.
Well that's good.  At least you keep them contained.

In California, they would seem to be hijacking the system.
Yes, let us keep them contained.  Now we all know exactly where to look when we want to feel better than everyone else, right?

NYC has its share of complete whackjobs, and the average person in WNY is not some lunatic.  I think some people in this forum believe they live in an ivory tower.
I hope you're not talking to me I fully agree with you. My point was simply that someone like Paladino wouldn't even make it to the primary stage coming out of the NYC area.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-11-03 08:50:00
mtb0minime
minimember
+2,418|6852

I think California gets its Liberal rep by the extremely vocal liberal areas of Hollywood/Los Angeles and San Francisco/Berkley. Much of the rest of the state is pretty conservative from what I've seen.
2010-11-03 08:52:06
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6327|North Tonawanda, NY

JohnG@lt wrote:

SenorToenails wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Well that's good.  At least you keep them contained.

In California, they would seem to be hijacking the system.
Yes, let us keep them contained.  Now we all know exactly where to look when we want to feel better than everyone else, right?

NYC has its share of complete whackjobs, and the average person in WNY is not some lunatic.  I think some people in this forum believe they live in an ivory tower.
I hope you're not talking to me I fully agree with you. My point was simply that someone like Paladino wouldn't even make it to the primary stage coming out of the NYC area.
Well, WNY leans right...except when it doesn't.  Paladino only got 50-some% of Erie county (his home county), which doesn't say much...lol

And no, I was talking about Turq's elitism.
2010-11-03 08:52:59
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5555|London, England

mtb0minime wrote:

I think California gets its Liberal rep by the extremely vocal liberal areas of Hollywood/Los Angeles and San Francisco/Berkley. Much of the rest of the state is pretty conservative from what I've seen.
The High Desert is full of ATGs.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-11-03 09:23:31
13rin
Member
+977|6676
Biggest let-down of this years elections.
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
2010-11-03 09:28:00
mr.hrundi
Wurstwassereis
+68|6634|Germany
My guess is that it's the timeframe. There seems to be a general swing to the right or conservative part of the political spectrum in many parts of the US because of frustration with the democratic government. If the referendums were held 2 years ago, the outcome might have been different.
2010-11-03 09:30:19
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5555|London, England

mr.hrundi wrote:

My guess is that it's the timeframe. There seems to be a general swing to the right or conservative part of the political spectrum in many parts of the US because of frustration with the democratic government. If the referendums were held 2 years ago, the outcome might have been different.
Two years ago, gay marriage was made illegal.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-11-03 09:37:30
Ticia
Member
+73|5532
It's a scientific fact that if you stay in California you lose one point of your IQ every year
2010-11-03 09:40:16
jord
Member
+2,382|6875|The North, beyond the wall.
So when's the next time a similar prop can be put forward?
2010-11-03 09:44:36
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,978|6829|949

JohnG@lt wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

state of extremes.
San Francisco vs Orange County. If you aren't an extreme wingnut, you aren't getting elected in either place.
derp derp

It's outside influence.  Look at the campaign donors for prop 8.  So much money was thrown at that initiative from religious factions that you can't even use that prop as a barometer for the political climate of CA.  Our Senators are waaay moderate.  Pelosi is the exception as far as politicians, but she's kind of built a little niche for herself and she plays into it.

Don't be ignorant guys.
2010-11-03 09:44:57
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6602|North Carolina

jord wrote:

So when's the next time a similar prop can be put forward?
They've talked about doing it again in 2012.

And yeah, Galt's right that Prop 8 was passed in 2008 during a liberal swing of the country.

California just seems to be crazy overall.
2010-11-03 09:46:23
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6602|North Carolina

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

state of extremes.
San Francisco vs Orange County. If you aren't an extreme wingnut, you aren't getting elected in either place.
derp derp

It's outside influence.  Look at the campaign donors for prop 8.  So much money was thrown at that initiative from religious factions that you can't even use that prop as a barometer for the political climate of CA.  Our Senators are waaay moderate.  Pelosi is the exception, but she's kind of built a little niche for herself and she plays into it.

Don't be ignorant guys.
I don't know.  Referendums are about as much of a reflection as you can get from the general public.  At least, it is about as accurate of a reflection as you can get from the people who actually bother to vote.

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