BF2S Forums Wikileaks Releases More Information about Iraq War

I just see it as part of the modern landscape of war. Commanders and shit might aswell just prepare it in their plans, the eventual leak of everything by someone or something. It's just inevitable. So when it's like that, it doesn't matter if it's right or wrong.

jsnipy wrote:

I look at these document releases as other occurance in war. Like you said there is nothing happening in any war now that has not happened before. The issue is probally more with lying and hypocrosy of what the US says it does and do vs what it does.

This is just an event in the evolution of data security. It will be interesting to see what measures evolve from these events.

The again we take all of this for face value.

The problem is, all these leaks just spark mass hype. This is great for the terrorists. Like, when the vietcong wanted to use psychological warfare, they attacked the american tv stations. They did little damage but from then on people were convinced thewarwasunethical andunlikely to end. God forbid these wars on terror become the new 'nam.

Acerider wrote:

God forbid these wars on terror become the new 'nam.

are you serious?

"these wars on terror", have been fought for centuries. the only time a smaller group directly confronts a larger one is with superior firepower. The French learned in Indochina they couldn't wage conventional warfare against the guerrillas in the jungle. The US seems determined to prove superior numbers and firepower can defeat guerrilla tactics, but the conflict is not new. Terror is a relative term, and your narrow world view prevents you from seeing how these types of conflicts have played out through history.

Poseidon wrote:

I wonder what would happen if documents like these were found from WWII.

Guarantee things a LOT worse occurred.

They were. The Germans took meticulous notes and archived everything. Some were destroyed, but the vast majority fell into allied hands. Hence the Nuremberg War Crimes Trials.

11 Bravo wrote:

and you cry about foxnews

"The documents appear to be authentic, but their origin could not be confirmed independently."

So I guess all the defence agencies around the world getting all angry and politicians getting all angry is just a clever ruse to hide from the real truth

JohnG@lt wrote:

Fear, the greatest weapon to ever exist.

You're forgetting the ability to exterminate an enemy, or destroy his combat effectiveness.
We didn't win WW-II because the Germans and Japanese were afraid of us.
We won because we had the capacity to completely destroy their warfighting ability.

You're also forgetting Diplomacy - the art of converting an enemy to a neutral or ally.
In modern middle eastern terms, that would be to get the Sunni and Shia to start killing each other again, rather than western infidels.

Fear works, psyops works.
But those aren't always the best tools, and never are they the only tools.

Will this really inform people? 

IMO, it seems more like an attention gathering/crap on the US stunt.

rdx-fx wrote:

In modern middle eastern terms, that would be to get the Sunni and Shia to start killing each other again, rather than western infidels.

Dilbert_X wrote:

The smart thing would be for no-one to kill anyone, although thats an alien concept to US foreign policy - see the discussions on STRATFOR's lame theories.

Yes, the smartest thing would be for no-one to kill anyone.
No, that's not an alien concept to US foreign policy.

Short course: If the Sunni and Shia are killing each other, while the US is killing neither - how many people is the US killing?
(Of course, I expect you to answer that direct question with something blaming the US, regardless)

It is not the limitation of US politics here, it is the limitation of Middle Eastern politics.
We are perfectly content to watch our TV, eat too much food, and sit on our asses - they are the ones that are perpetually pissed off at something, marching in the streets with placards of "Death to <This space for rent>"
Large lower class, full of angry young males, with little hope of bettering their station in life through honest work - if they don't have some clear focus for their hate, they will turn on their rulers.

While the super rich royalty soak up the vast majority of the region's petro-dollars, the rest of the population lives in perpetual socio-economic stagnation.  They are pissed, they are abused, they are neglected, and they have little hope to change this.  Middle eastern rulers are particularly curt in their response to peasant uprisings (ask the Kurds, ask the non-Persian Shia).  So, keep them pissed at America, at The West, at The Infidel, at Israel, or at rival sects within Islam - and they won't notice that it's really the boot of their own rulers on their neck, keeping them face down in the sand.

Dilbert_X wrote:

Wikileaks publication of these documents is a good thing, if it means our governments will think twice about lying to us in the future or govt agencies will think twice about doing things they wouldn't want found out.

To a point.

It is one thing to shine a light on unconscionable acts.
It is quite another thing to smear the names of confidential sources all over the internet.

As an example from another era, "scooter" Libby should've been executed for treason, for his outing of covert CIA agent Valerie Plame then lying about it before Congress.  President should not be able to pardon someone for treason, either.

There are situations where a regular Iraqi peasant would like to give up the names and locations of, say, an Al Quaeda operative known to have beheaded civilians for cooperating with Americans.  Wikileaks thinks it's fine to give up the name of that peasant informant, and let AQ have their revenge. 

If Julian Assange is such a proponent of the complete open exposure of information, then why isn't he giving up his address and phone number? 
Too dangerous? 
Ask the low level sources in Iraq and Afghanistan how safe they are from reprisals now that their names have been smeared around the internet.
Assange is a hypocritical, attention whore, asshat.

Dilbert_X wrote:

rdx-fx wrote:

In modern middle eastern terms, that would be to get the Sunni and Shia to start killing each other again, rather than western infidels.

The smart thing would be for no-one to kill anyone, although thats an alien concept to US foreign policy - see the discussions on STRATFOR's lame theories.

Wikileaks publication of these documents is a good thing, if it means our governments will think twice about lying to us in the future or govt agencies will think twice about doing things they wouldn't want found out.

It's not just alien to US foreign policy -- it's alien to humanity.

We will continue to kill each other for the rest of our existence as a species.

What we watch the Iraqis do is just a microcosm of what humans do in general.

Last edited by Turquoise (2010-10-24 00:06:04)

Dilbert_X wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

It's not just alien to US foreign policy -- it's alien to humanity.

Which is not the same as encouraging other people to kill each other and sitting back to enjoy the show.

Well, manipulating conflicts is something every major power does.  Granted, I'm not saying I like it.

11 Bravo wrote:

and you cry about foxnews

"The documents appear to be authentic, but their origin could not be confirmed independently."

but their origin could not be confirmed independently

/thread over