Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,816|6391|eXtreme to the maX
The problem is who decides who is 'worthy' to vote.

Mandatory service to the state - isn't that communism? Surely any money-earning occupation is service under capitalism?

Political awareness test - Who decides what the 'right' answers are?
Sounds a lot like rote learning of the Little Red Book/Mein Kampf/Whatever Lenin wrote/Whatever Palin is about to have written for her will be required.
Fuck Israel
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6696|'Murka

There's a difference between gauging someone's understanding of the content of the issues (awareness) and determining if they know the correct "answers" to the issues (Chairman Mao's Little Red Book).

I do think that service would give one insight into the workings of governmental bureaucracy, probably dishing out doses of healthy cynicism to the voting populace on the limits of government. That would certainly help.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,816|6391|eXtreme to the maX

FEOS wrote:

There's a difference between gauging someone's understanding of the content of the issues (awareness) and determining if they know the correct "answers" to the issues (Chairman Mao's Little Red Book).
Its a subtle difference, and is dependent on who is marking the exam.
Fuck Israel
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5643|London, England

FEOS wrote:

There's a difference between gauging someone's understanding of the content of the issues (awareness) and determining if they know the correct "answers" to the issues (Chairman Mao's Little Red Book).

I do think that service would give one insight into the workings of governmental bureaucracy, probably dishing out doses of healthy cynicism to the voting populace on the limits of government. That would certainly help.
Yes. I was apathetic towards government until I was a government employee. I am who I am today because of my unbridled hatred of pay scales, seniority based promotions and intellectual stagnation that I experienced while serving in the military. Government service doesn't necessarily make people drones wishing to maintain the status quo, it also generates people who hate the system and want it changed.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Ticia
Member
+73|5620
In theory parliamentary republic all the way. In practice none is good enough mainly because we need better politicians and better voters.
Some guy,probably Churchill,once said: The very best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the common voter.

It starts at birth and imo until education becomes the number one priority of every country no system will work.
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5463|Sydney

Dilbert_X wrote:

Anything which doesn't inevitably lead to a two-party state but still allows for stable government.

Proportional representation with no fixed govt term, just 1/5 of representatives up for re-election every year.
It's interesting this current political situation we find ourselves in. There is a lot of potential for some really big changes to occur. I just hope it doesn't fall back into the routine of towing the party line, which my cynical side kinda believes it will no matter what. But here's hoping for some real innovation to happen. Interesting hypothesis by Annabel Crabb on the ABC website that I read earlier tonight. The real-world connotations are quite different, but food for thought nonetheless.
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5870

rdx-fx wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

It wasn't only military service, it was other forms of service as well. The idea is that only people who have been willing to lay down their own lives for their country should have a say in how it is run. Those who aren't willing obviously don't care enough that they should have their voice heard. If there is any book I would recommend on here it's Starship Troopers. Fantastic book.

Macbeth wrote:

I understand that, like I said before--fuck that.

I don't think that people who do some sort of structured government approved service to their country has anymore of a right to decide how it is run then the kids who piss away their parents money creating art in college. I think that everyone who is a legal citizen of an area should have a say in it's governance. Also if your goal is to create a stronger more caring society then disenfranchising people who don't do government service is a great way to create instability due to lose of government legitimacy. 

Also for someone who claims to be a freedom loving libertarian, mandatory service to that state in return for a right as basic as suffrage is an awfully semi-fascist view.

As for science fiction novels, I liked the pessimistic view of the military, state, and government that The Forever War had. It's considered by many to be the counter balance to Starship troopers.
I think it should go further.  Think people should have to pass a Political Awareness test to get a voter's license and have done 4 years of Federal or State service and have paid income taxes for the last four years.

First, if you are not educated on the issues and political system, your vote is more of a hazard than a benefit as you're going to be swayed by bullshit advertising and PR spin.  Just as you have to prove a minimal competence for a driver's license or any other potentially hazardous undertaking, you should have to prove you are competent enough to be entrusted with a vote.

Second, if you have not invested into the system, what right do you have to determine the direction of the system?
Simply existing and breathing should not entitle one to a vote, you should have to earn that right.
Four years as an intern at a hospital, in the military, as a fire fighter, as a paramedic, on a Federal or State "Broom Trust" as a street cleaner, as a Masters or PhD candidate working on projects of "national significance", or as an aide to an elected official. Does not have to be military service - no forced induction, no goose stepping around singing Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Stadt, Ein Coca Cola - Heil Mickey Mouse.
Yes, two is in front of one. Sorry, blackberrys suck for posting on bf2s.
2. If you live in an area you have an interest in its well being. Not doing government approved service to it doesn't mean you'll sell it to the Ruskies if you had the chance.
Also you never adressed how disenfranchising people leads to lack of government legitimacy and in turn instability. If a government is going to tax people and make them follow laws then the people should have a say in the laws and leaders otherwise the question of "why should I follow these rules, or pay taxes" is legitimate.

Finally doesn't forcing people into service in order to vote show a distrust in the very system you want people to serve? I mean you want people to serve a system you wouldn't trust people to use naturally. That doesn't seem crazy to you?

In any case, community service is cool and all but the way I see it is: do it because you want to, not because you think you have to. Otherwise this forced service for a basic right like sufferage seems very unindividualisc and very unamerican.


1. Can you explain what the min amout of education needed to vote should be? Also how much of an understanding of politics and political systems? Depending on how you word the test, or what parts of the politiics and history you include or exclude you can stop people from voting. Also for how long should these test be good for? You can't expect a person who got the min amount necessary to vote in 1912 to be able to know enough to vote in 2010.
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6284|...
Finally doesn't forcing people into service in order to vote show a distrust in the very system you want people to serve? I mean you want people to serve a system you wouldn't trust people to use naturally. That doesn't seem crazy to you?

In any case, community service is cool and all but the way I see it is: do it because you want to, not because you think you have to. Otherwise this forced service for a basic right like suffrage seems very unindividualisc and very unamerican.
Because whatever system you implement, it is prone to misuse and corruption by the wrong people. Democracy as it is now has been admitted to be flawed by most, if not every competent politician since the beginning of the last century. There is definitely a need for change in the system and you have to strike a balance.

In the current situation democracy allows every individual to vote once they turn the legal age in their respective country. As idealistic as it sounds and being in line with the basic principles of western society that every man and woman should be able to have their say, nothing is actually done to educate the populace on the matter of governance.

The manner in which a country should be governed is a very complex subject. Generally without any knowledge in this area, many people, as we know, appear to be extremely gullible and uninformed when it comes to important issues playing in their respective countries. Personally the majority of people that I speak to on the subject of politics seem completely unable to form an opinion backed up with solid arguments.

The right person can manipulate this lack of understanding and/or knowledge easily to garner support - to devastating effects. It also allows for people who have the intellectual capacity of a granite rock but the camera appeal of George Clooney to easily enter into the world of politics and do as they please. This sort of person is definitely something you wish to avoid climbing to a position of power. It makes the right to vote for every individual a dangerous tool.

As such, I believe there should be a subject added to almost every level of education (at least from the moment that a child enters high school) that discusses topics relevant to their country of residence / the world at that moment in time, and tries to make them engage in discussion about it - also teaching how to build an argument. (Considering you are also taught some of this in philosophy I would strongly advocate making that a mandatory subject such as math.)

I do realise that it would be extremely difficult to make a test in this subject as the teacher would have to throw his own opinions away and judge students solely based on their arguments. We all know this is an impossibility. I would propose making the tests consist completely out of oral examinations in the form of debates with at least two teachers with opposing views on society judge them.

The result would (hopefully) be a generally more educated population and better politicians. I don't believe a test in political competence should be a necessity after this, besides that would be a complete disaster anyway. (on paper you would only be able to test simple factual information which really doesn't help anyone understand politics). I do however approve of the idea doing 2 years of public service before being given the right to vote. Those who do not wish to serve their country in even the simplest of tasks should have no say in it's governance. I wouldn't go as far as making public service mandatory though - but you would have to live without being able to vote.

Now, I would like to hear from you why you believe voting to be a basic right. Considering what sort of tool it actually is, why should it be?

Last edited by dayarath (2010-09-11 13:08:31)

inane little opines
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6696|'Murka

Sir Winston Churchill wrote:

It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.
That sums it up pretty well.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|7060|Moscow, Russia

ghettoperson wrote:

Shahter wrote:

ghettoperson wrote:

No surprise the Russian would support that...
they wouldn't. they are completely under the californication spell right now. unfortunately.
My Russian teacher a few years ago said by and large Russians wouldn't be bothered if they were governed by a dictatorship-style government because they'd grown accustomed to being ruled like that for so long. Agree/disagree?
it doesn't matter. you don't have any say in how your own nation is run, regardless of what your talking heads would have you beleave.

humans are nothing more than animals with overgrown brain. very few of us remotely understand what makes us act and why, and fewer still can really make intelligent choices - choices based on reason as opposed to dumb animal instincts. majority of people - OVERWHELMING majority - spend all their lives in persuit of the ways to feed, reproduce and dominate over the likes of them, like chimpanzees in fancy clothes. the only way to make humans act like actual sencient beings is to leave them no choice but to act that way, otherwise they would always behave like apes they evolved from. that's why none of us deserve any "freedom", and that's why only a handful of us are actually fit to be in charge. democracy - as well as communism - is impossible because it requires inhumal level of self-consciousness and self-discipline from every member of the society. we simply haven't evolved enough for that yet, neither biologically nor spiritually.

so, order comes first. anything else - after that.

Last edited by Shahter (2010-09-12 08:26:05)

if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|7001

Shahter wrote:

ghettoperson wrote:

Shahter wrote:


they wouldn't. they are completely under the californication spell right now. unfortunately.
My Russian teacher a few years ago said by and large Russians wouldn't be bothered if they were governed by a dictatorship-style government because they'd grown accustomed to being ruled like that for so long. Agree/disagree?
it doesn't matter. you don't have any say in how your own nation is run, regardless of what your talking heads would have you beleave.

humans are nothing more than animals with overgrown brain. very few of us remotely understand what makes us act and why, and fewer still can really make intelligent choices - choices based on reason as opposed to dumb animal instincts. majority of people - OVERWHELMING majority - spend all their lives in persuit of the ways to feed, reproduce and dominate over the likes of them, like chimpanzees in fancy clothes. the only way to make humans act like actual sencient beings is to leave them no choice but to act that way, otherwise they would always behave like apes they evolved from. that's why none of us deserve any "freedom", and that's why only a handful of us are actually fit to be in charge. democracy - as well as communism - is impossible because it requires inhumal level of self-consciousness and self-discipline from every member of the society. we simply haven't evolved enough for that yet, neither biologically nor spiritually.

so, order comes first. anything else - after that.
at least i dont get sent to a gulag if i criticized fearless leader
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5643|London, England

Shahter wrote:

ghettoperson wrote:

Shahter wrote:


they wouldn't. they are completely under the californication spell right now. unfortunately.
My Russian teacher a few years ago said by and large Russians wouldn't be bothered if they were governed by a dictatorship-style government because they'd grown accustomed to being ruled like that for so long. Agree/disagree?
it doesn't matter. you don't have any say in how your own nation is run, regardless of what your talking heads would have you beleave.

humans are nothing more than animals with overgrown brain. very few of us remotely understand what makes us act and why, and fewer still can really make intelligent choices - choices based on reason as opposed to dumb animal instincts. majority of people - OVERWHELMING majority - spend all their lives in persuit of the ways to feed, reproduce and dominate over the likes of them, like chimpanzees in fancy clothes. the only way to make humans act like actual sencient beings is to leave them no choice but to act that way, otherwise they would always behave like apes they evolved from. that's why none of us deserve any "freedom", and that's why only a handful of us are actually fit to be in charge. democracy - as well as communism - is impossible because it requires inhumal level of self-consciousness and self-discipline from every member of the society. we simply haven't evolved enough for that yet, neither biologically nor spiritually.

so, order comes first. anything else - after that.
Do us a favor and either stop posting or kill yourself. Thanks.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|7060|Moscow, Russia

JohnG@lt wrote:

Do us a favor and either stop posting or kill yourself. Thanks.
do us a favor and don't post if you have nothing of substance to add. thanks.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|7001

Shahter wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Do us a favor and either stop posting or kill yourself. Thanks.
do us a favor and don't post if you have nothing of substance to add. thanks.
everything is propaganda amirite
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
rdx-fx
...
+955|6876

Cybargs wrote:

everything is propaganda amirite
Yo dawg, I herd u leik Propaganda, so I put some Propaganda in your Propaganda.
[Insert North Korean style propaganda poster, with shirtless Putin, flightsuit Bush, and ph33rl3ss l33der Kim Jong "be Ill" actionfigures striking heroic poses]

Something like;
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/16359/200608040019_01.jpg
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|7001

rdx-fx wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

everything is propaganda amirite
Yo dawg, I herd u leik Propaganda, so I put some Propaganda in your Propaganda.
[Insert North Korean style propaganda poster, with shirtless Putin, flightsuit Bush, and ph33rl3ss l33der Kim Jong "be Ill" actionfigures striking heroic poses]

Something like;
http://static.bf2s.com/files/user/16359 … 019_01.jpg
https://worldmeets.us/images/china.koreanwar.macarthur.caption_poster.jpg
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
jord
Member
+2,382|6963|The North, beyond the wall.
Lol "wanton".
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5643|London, England

Shahter wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Do us a favor and either stop posting or kill yourself. Thanks.
do us a favor and don't post if you have nothing of substance to add. thanks.
I'm serious shahter. If you think you are too stupid to live your own life without constant direction from others and in fact crave that control, why live your life in the first place? Doesn't seem to be a very promising life you have laid out ahead of you.

And by the same token, why should any of us want to read the opinions espoused by someone who feels he is too stupid to live, and nothing more than a brute animal? You seek to be controlled. That's fine, go wallow in your bottle of vodka or join the military.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5544|foggy bottom
something something californiacation
Tu Stultus Es
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|7060|Moscow, Russia

JohnG@lt wrote:

Shahter wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Do us a favor and either stop posting or kill yourself. Thanks.
do us a favor and don't post if you have nothing of substance to add. thanks.
I'm serious shahter. If you think you are too stupid to live your own life without constant direction from others
i don't think i am - i think you are, especially if you actually beleave that you have any "freedom" in there. or rather you do have freedom to live like an ape - that you have, sure. what you and most people on this bloody rock lack is the capacity to live like sencient beings, and you are purposefully kept incapable of doing that.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
jord
Member
+2,382|6963|The North, beyond the wall.
Yeah I agree, humans are incapable of governing themselves. Someone should just go ahead and make a computer system to govern us. Call it autogov and integrate it with cctv cameras and robot police and uavs...
rdx-fx
...
+955|6876

Shahter wrote:

i don't think i am - i think you are, especially if you actually beleave that you have any "freedom" in there. or rather you do have freedom to live like an ape - that you have, sure. what you and most people on this bloody rock lack is the capacity to live like sencient beings, and you are purposefully kept incapable of doing that.
[Looks around]

I got to pick who I married. 
I get to choose how many children I have.
I can be an Atheist without fear of prosecution.
My political, social, or fashion tastes can be whatever horrid mish-mash of crazy I choose.
I can go shoot my assortment of firearms whenever I choose.
I can freely travel to any portion of the country I choose, without "papers". 
      From Alaskan arctic, to Arizona desert - from urban Chicago, to the complete isolation of any number of wilderness areas.
I am free to choose my level of education, from basic high school to multiple PhD
I am free to choose my career, from stay-at-home parent to business owner to soldier to employee to whatever.
I am free to be as well-read, or as country-ignorant as I like.
And if I don't like the particular form of government here, I am free to leave whenever I like.
I have access to plentiful food, I can be a fatass, an anorexic, a musclehead, or anything in between.

If anything, we have an embarrassment of freedoms here.
If anything, we have so many freedoms that people here forget what their responsibilities are

Last edited by rdx-fx (2010-09-12 10:58:49)

Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6755
anarcho-syndicalism

/thread
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|7060|Moscow, Russia

rdx-fx wrote:

If anything, we have so many freedoms that people here forget what their responsibilities are
now, this^ is exactly what i'm talking about. even when humans have freedom to act like sencient beings, most still lack the capacity to do so.

Last edited by Shahter (2010-09-12 11:17:08)

if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6755
that pessimism is pretty frightening, though. it's that sort of ultra-despondent and resignatory attitude that casually accepts totalitarianism.

just because not everybody can handle their complete human responsibilities, doesn't mean they should be deprived of them by default.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/

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