Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6689|North Carolina
So crazy pastor Terry Jones has dropped his re-enactment of Fahrenheit 451 with Qurans only to have the Westboro Baptist Church fill in for him.  I'm sure more talk among the Obama administration will fester as the usual suspects among the politically correct (especially the thin-skinned CAIR) will mention things about how troops will be endangered by the repercussions of this burning.

Yet....  where was all the chatter when the Abu Ghraib pictures were released?  An even more serious breach of safety for our troops was made more recently thanks to Julian Assange's Wikileaks treasure trove -- including unedited reports that the Taliban showed their gratitude for by threatening and attacking many of our allies among tribal leaders in Afghanistan.

However, for some reason, there was less uproar about that.  We certainly didn't hear the uproar coming from Islamic groups and their concerns for our troops.  Yet, when a Quran burning is front page news...  it's almost at the same level of screaming as when the Mohammed cartoons were printed.

Seems strange, doesn't it?  People's concerns for the troops' safety is very conditional, isn't it?
Phrozenbot
Member
+632|6900|do not disturb

Troops are endangered by burning Korans.

Troops are endangered by fighting questionable wars in the middle east.

Last edited by Phrozenbot (2010-09-09 17:07:02)

Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6689|North Carolina

Phrozenbot wrote:

Troops are engendered [sic] by burning Korans.

Troops are endangered by fighting questionable wars in the middle east.
I agree totally, but I just find it strange that the argument of endangering our troops is pulled out for burning Qurans and not for something much more directly related to their security.
Ticia
Member
+73|5620

Turquoise wrote:

So crazy pastor Terry Jones has dropped his re-enactment of Fahrenheit 451 with Qurans only to have the Westboro Baptist Church fill in for him.  I'm sure more talk among the Obama administration will fester as the usual suspects among the politically correct (especially the thin-skinned CAIR) will mention things about how troops will be endangered by the repercussions of this burning.

Yet....  where was all the chatter when the Abu Ghraib pictures were released?  An even more serious breach of safety for our troops was made more recently thanks to Julian Assange's Wikileaks treasure trove -- including unedited reports that the Taliban showed their gratitude for by threatening and attacking many of our allies among tribal leaders in Afghanistan.

However, for some reason, there was less uproar about that.  We certainly didn't hear the uproar coming from Islamic groups and their concerns for our troops.  Yet, when a Quran burning is front page news...  it's almost at the same level of screaming as when the Mohammed cartoons were printed.

Seems strange, doesn't it?  People's concerns for the troops' safety is very conditional, isn't it?
You can blame it on political correctness or on how the US want to clean its image worldwide.
Or we can all be real and admit the hypocrisy of it all and say how everyone is bowing to the Islamic fundamentalists.
Phrozenbot
Member
+632|6900|do not disturb

When you look at it from their perspective, the question is often asked, how many dead American soldiers is it worth to accomplish (fill in blank)? Is it some sort of purchase, just with American blood instead of USD?

So they say yes, but now you're adding unnecessarily to the body count. I can think of a lot the military does that is counter productive to troops overseas, and specifically to their mission. Drone attacks that kill innocent civilians creating anger amongst the populace? No, couldn't possibly be true at all.

Seems like an aversion attempt somewhat. So some donut wanted to burn Korans to celebrate 9-11 and mock Muslims. Unless we see a massive spike is retaliation against troops, it is hard to say what affect it might have.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6689|North Carolina

Ticia wrote:

You can blame it on political correctness or on how the US want to clean its image worldwide.
Or we can all be real and admit the hypocrisy of it all and say how everyone is bowing to the Islamic fundamentalists.
The thing that sucks is that what seems to govern free speech in a lot of the West nowadays is preventing radicals from blowing shit up.  Basically, censorship is being justified by worries of insane people hurting them.

Yet, to give in to these people legitimizes their fears and anger.

It's the same bullshit with the Islamic community center in NYC.

Rational people would connect the dots and realize that fundamentalists did 9/11, not the kind of Muslims that would attend this center.

By the same token, rational people don't kill or threaten others over a cartoon or book burning.

Basically, we need to offend certain people more often, so they'll stop going crazy and join the club of the rest of us in accepting getting offended sometimes.

Bunch of fucking babies, the whole lot of them...
Phrozenbot
Member
+632|6900|do not disturb

Freedom of speech, and they exercise it. Is it illegal to protest outside of Church grounds? I wouldn't mind seeing people call out the disease they preach and see how they like it.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6689|North Carolina

Phrozenbot wrote:

When you look at it from their perspective, the question is often asked, how many dead American soldiers is it worth to accomplish (fill in blank)? Is it some sort of purchase, just with American blood instead of USD?

So they say yes, but now you're adding unnecessarily to the body count. I can think of a lot the military does that is counter productive to troops overseas, and specifically to their mission. Drone attacks that kill innocent civilians creating anger amongst the populace? No, couldn't possibly be true at all.

Seems like an aversion attempt somewhat. So some donut wanted to burn Korans to celebrate 9-11 and mock Muslims. Unless we see a massive spike is retaliation against troops, it is hard to say what affect it might have.
Pretty much...  I just find the whole concern for the troops part of this to be very hollow.  These activist groups don't really give two shits about the safety of our soldiers.  I don't see how they actually would.

What they really want is to remove the right to offend them.
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6905|London, England
Nobodys freedom of speech was curtailed. The admistrations were just giving out warnings and shit, they gave out the same warnings about the wikileaks too. If they sent the SWAT team to go and arrest this guy, then that's curtailing freedom of speech. This guy stopped doing what he wanted to do all on his own.
Ticia
Member
+73|5620

Turquoise wrote:

Ticia wrote:

You can blame it on political correctness or on how the US want to clean its image worldwide.
Or we can all be real and admit the hypocrisy of it all and say how everyone is bowing to the Islamic fundamentalists.
The thing that sucks is that what seems to govern free speech in a lot of the West nowadays is preventing radicals from blowing shit up.  Basically, censorship is being justified by worries of insane people hurting them.

Yet, to give in to these people legitimizes their fears and anger.

It's the same bullshit with the Islamic community center in NYC.

Rational people would connect the dots and realize that fundamentalists did 9/11, not the kind of Muslims that would attend this center.

By the same token, rational people don't kill or threaten others over a cartoon or book burning.

Basically, we need to offend certain people more often, so they'll stop going crazy and join the club of the rest of us in accepting getting offended sometimes.

Bunch of fucking babies, the whole lot of them...
Well you guys are experts on being mocked. But you're right maybe someday they'll grow a sense of humor too but for that to happen we can't see them as the all powerful demons they're not,they thrive on it.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6689|North Carolina

Mekstizzle wrote:

Nobodys freedom of speech was curtailed. The admistrations were just giving out warnings and shit, they gave out the same warnings about the wikileaks too. If they sent the SWAT team to go and arrest this guy, then that's curtailing freedom of speech. This guy stopped doing what he wanted to do all on his own.
Well, here's the catch.  The threat of governmental action was discussed.  We were edging toward a slippery slope "national security" argument in blocking Jones's book burning.

We'll see if things escalate any further with the WBC now getting involved.

What bothers me about this is that it seems like Obama might be falling prey to political correctness in this situation.  So far, he hasn't crossed any lines, but I seriously hope he doesn't do anything to actually curtail the freedom of speech regarding this situation.
Phrozenbot
Member
+632|6900|do not disturb

Mekstizzle wrote:

Nobodys freedom of speech was curtailed. The admistrations were just giving out warnings and shit, they gave out the same warnings about the wikileaks too. If they sent the SWAT team to go and arrest this guy, then that's curtailing freedom of speech. This guy stopped doing what he wanted to do all on his own.
Of course, he knew it was a silly idea and eventually capitulated. Personally though, imagine if we just ignored this instead of putting so much media attention on it. How are Muslims not supposed to know about it?
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6689|North Carolina

Ticia wrote:

Well you guys are experts on being mocked. But you're right maybe someday they'll grow a sense of humor too but for that to happen we can't see them as the all powerful demons they're not,they thrive on it.
Absolutely...  less interventionism, more rationality.
Phrozenbot
Member
+632|6900|do not disturb

Turquoise wrote:

Mekstizzle wrote:

Nobodys freedom of speech was curtailed. The admistrations were just giving out warnings and shit, they gave out the same warnings about the wikileaks too. If they sent the SWAT team to go and arrest this guy, then that's curtailing freedom of speech. This guy stopped doing what he wanted to do all on his own.
Well, here's the catch.  The threat of governmental action was discussed.  We were edging toward a slippery slope "national security" argument in blocking Jones's book burning.

We'll see if things escalate any further with the WBC now getting involved.

What bothers me about this is that it seems like Obama might be falling prey to political correctness in this situation.  So far, he hasn't crossed any lines, but I seriously hope he doesn't do anything to actually curtail the freedom of speech regarding this situation.
I think Obama is a bit too outspoken. The mosque, if it is even that, seems more like an issue that should concern New Yorkers and the local population more than the rest of America. I mean really, do I or anyone outside really have a say, other than my opinion?
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5642|London, England

Phrozenbot wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Mekstizzle wrote:

Nobodys freedom of speech was curtailed. The admistrations were just giving out warnings and shit, they gave out the same warnings about the wikileaks too. If they sent the SWAT team to go and arrest this guy, then that's curtailing freedom of speech. This guy stopped doing what he wanted to do all on his own.
Well, here's the catch.  The threat of governmental action was discussed.  We were edging toward a slippery slope "national security" argument in blocking Jones's book burning.

We'll see if things escalate any further with the WBC now getting involved.

What bothers me about this is that it seems like Obama might be falling prey to political correctness in this situation.  So far, he hasn't crossed any lines, but I seriously hope he doesn't do anything to actually curtail the freedom of speech regarding this situation.
I think Obama is a bit too outspoken. The mosque, if it is even that, seems more like an issue that should concern New Yorkers and the local population more than the rest of America. I mean really, do I or anyone outside really have a say, other than my opinion?
Well, if he ignores it, he gives Fox ammunition. If he speaks out on the subject, he also gives Fox ammunition. He's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. They trapped him well with this bullshit.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6689|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:

Phrozenbot wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


Well, here's the catch.  The threat of governmental action was discussed.  We were edging toward a slippery slope "national security" argument in blocking Jones's book burning.

We'll see if things escalate any further with the WBC now getting involved.

What bothers me about this is that it seems like Obama might be falling prey to political correctness in this situation.  So far, he hasn't crossed any lines, but I seriously hope he doesn't do anything to actually curtail the freedom of speech regarding this situation.
I think Obama is a bit too outspoken. The mosque, if it is even that, seems more like an issue that should concern New Yorkers and the local population more than the rest of America. I mean really, do I or anyone outside really have a say, other than my opinion?
Well, if he ignores it, he gives Fox ammunition. If he speaks out on the subject, he also gives Fox ammunition. He's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. They trapped him well with this bullshit.
Yes, they did.  It's unfortunate that it works like that, but I would actually argue that he gives Fox less ammo if he's less outspoken.

He should basically just say things like "the community center is a local issue out of my jurisdiction" and "the Quran burning is a hateful thing to do, but it's within his freedom of speech."
jsnipy
...
+3,277|6807|...

To make it equal we need to burn equal measures of New Testament, Talmud, Taoteching, New Testament, Bagavad Gita, Analects, Upanishads, and Veda. This way everyone will be in danger.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,816|6390|eXtreme to the maX
Sending troops to fight unwinnable wars for no good reason has to be at the top of the list.
Second, sending them in without a coherent plan or exit strategy
Third, not providing them with the right eqpt. for the job, unarmoured Humvees etc.

Press freedom is waaaaaay down the list, and really should solve the above before it happens.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2010-09-09 17:54:29)

Fuck Israel
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6689|North Carolina

Dilbert_X wrote:

Sending troops to fight unwinnable wars for no good reason has to be at the top of the list.
Second, sending them in without a coherent plan or exit strategy
Third, not providing them with the right eqpt.

Press freedom is waaaaaay down the list.
No argument here, but I would still argue Wikileaks has done far more harm than any Quran burning could do.
Phrozenbot
Member
+632|6900|do not disturb

JohnG@lt wrote:

Well, if he ignores it, he gives Fox ammunition. If he speaks out on the subject, he also gives Fox ammunition. He's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. They trapped him well with this bullshit.
The last time Fox news was on, some lady filled in for Bill O'Reilly and was vehemently criticizing him. It is awful, I've never seen them put a Republican on the spot quite like what I saw.

Obama, however, was arrogant enough to convince us he could change things for the better. He inherited the economy, two wars, and various other issues to deal with full knowledge of what he was getting into.
Hunter/Jumper
Member
+117|6639

Dilbert_X wrote:

Sending troops to fight unwinnable wars ~
I don't feel that either war is Un-Winnable, Especially if we fought it like a War - i.e. with a reduced regard for non-allied casualties. We don't  and I applaud our people for it. Their restraint is to date Unprecedented

Any conflict has its horrors, wastes, sadness, abuses and destruction, There may never a War with a happy Ending for all. But Like it or not muslims have greatly benefited from our incursions around the globe so far. Conversely we are not fighting to win a traditional victory with a traditional goal. ( Like say securing or denying a safe a trade route or territorial conquest. ) This conflict Instead mirrored our Entrance to WWII. Many of or goals have already been met. Such as - Removing a Hostile government. Denying a monopoly on resources to belligerent governments and denying safe haven for possible enemy combatants. Disrupting the Enemy's infrastructure, command, and lines of safe communication.

Dilbert_X wrote:

for no good reason
Reasons ~ Good / maybe bad. On the most Basic level. I felt like we ( The U.S.A. alone ) had been attacked probably 10 times in the eight previous years leading up to 911.  Without any real insight into Intelligence available to our government ( and we probably won't know for another 30  years maybe more what intelligence was actually available ) Given the lack of any credible aggressive response since than, It seems logical that " We must have moved in the right places "


Dilbert_X wrote:

Second, sending them in without a coherent plan
Just from paying attention -  and they didn't send me Memos either I think the plan was 1. Remove Sadam and 2. the Threat of WMD 3. Disrupt Training, Safe haven and logistical support for enemy combatants. 4. Possibly send a message to others ( pick your own examples). If 4. Wasn't part of the " coherent plan " a message went out and some people got it anyway.


Dilbert_X wrote:

sending them in without an exit strategy
What was the " Exit strategy " for Nazi Germany or the Balkans, We are still there are we not. ? As far as I know There is No such thing ( above tactical hit and Run ) as an " Exit Strategy ",

I may be wrong. But the Marshall Plan was developed and implemented well after hostilities ended

( from the Don't Count Your Chickens Before they Hatch Dept )

As was the Berlin Air Lift

( from the "  You Play the Hand Your Dealt Dept." )

i.e. Some times the enemy just doesn't Cooperate.  After hostilities is called occupation. You basically become a police force till the next generation grows up nice, and its always dirty work. To my knowledge ( and I'm just winging it now ) Only the Carthage campaigns had the luxury of an exit strategy.


Dilbert_X wrote:

Third, not providing them with the right eqpt. for the job, unarmoured Humvees etc.
Well you don't shop for weapons the night before the War do you ? All our equipment has to be procured and approved by congress if the military is going to be able to purchase what they want. If we are truly being honest with each other. We all know who thinks defense spending is money well spent and who fights the military for every penny. Interestingly enough The same people who deny our military would rather spend money on a Crucifix floating in a jar of urine as "hi art " But that's another topic best avoided.


Dilbert_X wrote:

Press freedom is waaaaaay down the list, and really should solve the above before it happens.
I understand and from an emotional standpoint ( maybe patriotic ) I tend to agree. "Press freedom " I feel is tightly albeit complexly and delicately interwoven with the issue of propaganda in War. Its a difficult thing to address but it needs to be carefully monitored if not in some special cases controlled. If for some reason the Press is not concerned with its actions or deliberately endangers / exposes plans and details In some political maneuver. Then the harshest measures should be taken to upon those responsible prevent further abuse of their power and endangering of people already in harms way.
PS " Talking points " ? the Shame !
PpS I think obama is an adult male and should be able to preform with one Network that isn't fawning over him. Further O'Reilly is op-ed Kinda like " the View " shall we move on ?

Last edited by Hunter/Jumper (2010-09-12 23:09:24)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,816|6390|eXtreme to the maX

Hunter/Jumper wrote:

I don't feel that either war is Un-Winnable, Especially if we fought it like a War - i.e. with a reduced regard for non-allied casualties.
Didn't seem to work in Vietnam.

Reasons ~ Good / maybe bad. On the most Basic level. I felt like we ( The U.S.A. alone ) had been attacked probably 10 times in the eight previous years leading up to 911.  Without any real insight into Intelligence available to our government ( and we probably won't know for another 30  years maybe more what intelligence was actually available ) Given the lack of any credible aggressive response since than, It seems logical that " We must have moved in the right places "
You do know the plan was to sucker the US into a fight on AQs home turf, and widen the fight to other muslims? Mission accomplished - There was no reason to mount further attacks on the US.

Just from paying attention -  and they didn't send me Memos either I think the plan was 1. Remove Sadam 9sic) and 2. the Threat of WMD 3. Disrupt Training, Safe haven and logistical support for enemy combatants. 4. Possibly send a message to others ( pick your own examples). If 4. Wasn't part of the " coherent plan " a message went out and some people got it anyway.
If 1 or 4 is true then the US committed a war crime, and started a war unrelated to AQ attacks on the US.
Are you seriously saying the US really believed Saddam had WMD or any plans to hand them over to AQ?

What was the " Exit strategy " for Nazi Germany or the Balkans, We are still there are we not. ? As far as I know There is No such thing ( above tactical hit and Run ) as an " Exit Strategy "
The exit strategy was unconditional surrender, of the Germans and Japanese.

Dilbert_X wrote:

Well you don't shop for weapons the night before the War do you ?
Better to pick an alternative strategy based around the available equipment rather than send your guys in, watch them get cut to pieces and then still fail to put any effort into getting the right gear (see Rumsfeld).

I understand and from an emotional standpoint ( maybe patriotic ) I tend to agree. "Press freedom " I feel is tightly albeit complexly and delicately interwoven with the issue of propaganda in War. Its a difficult thing to address but it needs to be carefully monitored if not in some special cases controlled. If for some reason the Press is not concerned with its actions or deliberately endangers / exposes plans and details In some political maneuver.
The press needs to be monitored and controlled? Wow.
the harshest measures should be taken to upon those responsible prevent further abuse of their power and endangering of people already in harms way
I'd say that applies much more to the politicians than the press, and we need press freedom to ensure it happens.
I'm more concerned about unaccountable rednecks with nuclear command codes and messiah complexes than people with typewriters TBH.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2010-09-12 23:51:02)

Fuck Israel
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|7001
AQ hated Saddam and vice versa... Reason why OBL is pissed at America is that the Saudis wouldn't let him help in Gulf War 1 and infidels were on the holy land.
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Little BaBy JESUS
m8
+394|6433|'straya
While I believe in freedom of the press, I must say that if it came down to troops lives vs shutting up a media outlet, I would support shutting up the media outlet without hesitation.
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|7001

Little BaBy JESUS wrote:

While I believe in freedom of the press, I must say that if it came down to troops lives vs shutting up a media outlet, I would support shutting up the media outlet without hesitation.
What the aus gov does in regards to media about afghanistan is a pretty good policy tbh... the hungry beast interview with the soldier made a really good point about war journalism.
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