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2010-09-06 11:14:18
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|7001

Turquoise wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

I don't think Africa has many sweatshops to begin with... They gotta solve a shitload of conflicts first. Signing onto the WTO was a big hit for china because loads of companies started investing into china... things get taxed, better infrastructure is built etc... lots of poorer countries in SE asia are developing very nicely because of sweatshops... especially vietnam and thailand. money is never static. wealth gets created, lots of new entrepreneurs etc. i know this is how taiwan got its economy kicking up.
Well again, the countries that succeed are applying the money they earn effectively.  It's not just the fact that sweatshops have moved to these areas.

I guess what I'm getting at is that sweatshops can be a nice source of revenue, but they are a temporary stimulus for an economy.  What is more important is what is done with the money involved.
That is true. Asian business mind: white people pay me to make things. I make something later to sell to white people fucking gwai lao lulz. Most businessmen would reinvest the cash in their business too.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
2010-09-06 18:29:38
Ticia
Member
+73|5620

Turquoise wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

Ticia wrote:


Any business that administers forced and child labor, substandard wages, excessive overtime or hazardous working conditions can be super competitive too. Would you want to live there?
The real competition can only take place when is fair. Just like in boxing athletes are in the same weight range or in a race there’s a starting line for all.
Substandard compared to what? Hazardous compared to what? Local standards bro. Sure a lot of sweat shops are shitty compared to the shit you have in the west, but it is a lot better compared to local jobs, especially the pay. Lots of sweatshops aren't forced labour.
While it is true that Ticia's conclusion is somewhat idealistic and that standards are relative, the sweatshop model in the modern context is often very limited in its advantages for a poor country.
I'm talking about how the western world is willing to let go of basic human rights and labor laws in the name of competition. There's nothing shocking about sweatshops in China what is shocking is how we don't give a fuck.
2010-09-06 18:31:14
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6690|North Carolina

Ticia wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Cybargs wrote:


Substandard compared to what? Hazardous compared to what? Local standards bro. Sure a lot of sweat shops are shitty compared to the shit you have in the west, but it is a lot better compared to local jobs, especially the pay. Lots of sweatshops aren't forced labour.
While it is true that Ticia's conclusion is somewhat idealistic and that standards are relative, the sweatshop model in the modern context is often very limited in its advantages for a poor country.
I'm talking about how the western world is willing to let go of basic human rights and labor laws in the name of competition. There's nothing shocking about sweatshops in China what is shocking is how we don't give a fuck.
Well yeah.  Humans are ruthlessly practical by nature.  I'm not saying it makes it right, but a quick buck is a quick buck. (kind of like our prostitution discussion)
2010-09-06 18:35:54
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,816|6391|eXtreme to the maX

FEOS wrote:

Actually, when you're younger, you tend to know everything.

When you get older, you realize you don't and tend to understand others' thoughts on topics have merit.
The more I learn, the more I learn I know nothing
Fuck Israel
2010-09-06 19:33:37
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6696|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Actually, when you're younger, you tend to know everything.

When you get older, you realize you don't and tend to understand others' thoughts on topics have merit.
The more I learn, the more I learn I know nothing
Exactly.

This is what I was getting at, Turq.

When you're young, you are convinced (generally) that you know pretty much everything and have the world figured out. It's as you age and gain knowledge through education (both academic and real-world) that you realize you don't. And that opens one's mind. The open-mindedness you think you have as a youth is actually close-mindedness. It takes experience to open one's mind and learn critical thinking skills.

I am more than a little tired of the old saw that "open-mindedness is a liberal trait and close-mindedness is a conservative trait". That is simply hogwash--an attempt by liberal intelligentsia to make themselves appear "better" than their conservative counterparts. Open- or close-mindedness is agnostic of political affiliation. I have seen just as many close-minded liberals in my life as I have seen conservatives with the same trait. And I have seen just as many open-minded conservatives as I have seen open-minded liberals.

Both sides tend to become close-minded when they get a majority in the Congress.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2010-09-06 19:35:42
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6690|North Carolina

FEOS wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Actually, when you're younger, you tend to know everything.

When you get older, you realize you don't and tend to understand others' thoughts on topics have merit.
The more I learn, the more I learn I know nothing
Exactly.

This is what I was getting at, Turq.

When you're young, you are convinced (generally) that you know pretty much everything and have the world figured out. It's as you age and gain knowledge through education (both academic and real-world) that you realize you don't. And that opens one's mind. The open-mindedness you think you have as a youth is actually close-mindedness. It takes experience to open one's mind and learn critical thinking skills.

I am more than a little tired of the old saw that "open-mindedness is a liberal trait and close-mindedness is a conservative trait". That is simply hogwash--an attempt by liberal intelligentsia to make themselves appear "better" than their conservative counterparts. Open- or close-mindedness is agnostic of political affiliation. I have seen just as many close-minded liberals in my life as I have seen conservatives with the same trait. And I have seen just as many open-minded conservatives as I have seen open-minded liberals.

Both sides tend to become close-minded when they get a majority in the Congress.
I'll put it this way...  I wish I knew more older people that were open-minded.  Most of the open-minded people I know are younger.
2010-09-06 19:36:41
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6696|'Murka

My experience is the exact opposite.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2010-09-06 19:54:28
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6833|San Diego, CA, USA
I agree with almost everything you just said FEOS except the part about education.  Education no-a-days is not like it was 20-30 years ago.  Today I believe its more about indoctrination, especially at our universities.  Its basically spew out whatever the liberial professor wants to get your A.  If you are a Conservative in college today you're shunned and ostracized.
2010-09-06 21:06:44
Phrozenbot
Member
+632|6900|do not disturb

Weird, I've gotten the impression from everyone here at one point that they "know" everything.
2010-09-06 22:23:37
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6959|Canberra, AUS
Most open-minded people I've met are smarter. Not talking necessarily book intelligence but all-round intelligence.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2010-09-07 04:32:30
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6696|'Murka

Harmor wrote:

I agree with almost everything you just said FEOS except the part about education.  Education no-a-days is not like it was 20-30 years ago.  Today I believe its more about indoctrination, especially at our universities.  Its basically spew out whatever the liberial professor wants to get your A.  If you are a Conservative in college today you're shunned and ostracized.
Notice I said "both academic and real-world".
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2010-09-07 05:02:59
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,816|6391|eXtreme to the maX
I'm not sure its an age thing, people who are close-minded tend to stay that way, people who are open-minded tend to stay that way too.
Culturally the world has become more open and people more cynical and questioning, thats more likely to explain why previous generations seem more close minded.

It does seem to me that 'liberals' as a group have become steadily more close minded, to the point they seem just as intolerant as 'right-wingers'.
Could be my imagination, either way if you disgree you're wrong and not me.
Fuck Israel
2010-09-07 05:16:57
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|6966|Disaster Free Zone

Harmor wrote:

I agree with almost everything you just said FEOS except the part about education.  Education no-a-days is not like it was 20-30 years ago.  Today I believe its more about indoctrination, especially at our universities.  Its basically spew out whatever the liberial professor wants to get your A.  If you are a Conservative in college today you're shunned and ostracized.
Stop choosing liberal studies then.
2010-09-07 17:57:07
Ticia
Member
+73|5620

Dilbert_X wrote:

I'm not sure its an age thing, people who are close-minded tend to stay that way, people who are open-minded tend to stay that way too.
Culturally the world has become more open and people more cynical and questioning, thats more likely to explain why previous generations seem more close minded.

It does seem to me that 'liberals' as a group have become steadily more close minded, to the point they seem just as intolerant as 'right-wingers'.
Could be my imagination, either way if you disgree you're wrong and not me.
Although older people tend to be more patient and wise they're also harder to change their mind about…anything.
The real definition of an "open mind" should be willing to take in consideration arguments and ideas strictly on its merit and if that idea can be seen as correct change or expand our views, so usually the younger have if nothing else more time to go back and forward on different issues.
2010-09-07 18:46:27
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6696|'Murka

Ticia wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

I'm not sure its an age thing, people who are close-minded tend to stay that way, people who are open-minded tend to stay that way too.
Culturally the world has become more open and people more cynical and questioning, thats more likely to explain why previous generations seem more close minded.

It does seem to me that 'liberals' as a group have become steadily more close minded, to the point they seem just as intolerant as 'right-wingers'.
Could be my imagination, either way if you disgree you're wrong and not me.
Although older people tend to be more patient and wise they're also harder to change their mind about…anything.
The real definition of an "open mind" should be willing to take in consideration arguments and ideas strictly on its merit and if that idea can be seen as correct change or expand our views, so usually the younger have if nothing else more time to go back and forward on different issues.
And older people have more experience with which to temper their decision-making on those issues. Which could explain why they seem more "close-minded"...they can make their decisions faster.

Just a theory.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2010-09-07 18:52:05
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6690|North Carolina

Dilbert_X wrote:

I'm not sure its an age thing, people who are close-minded tend to stay that way, people who are open-minded tend to stay that way too.
Culturally the world has become more open and people more cynical and questioning, thats more likely to explain why previous generations seem more close minded.

It does seem to me that 'liberals' as a group have become steadily more close minded, to the point they seem just as intolerant as 'right-wingers'.
Could be my imagination, either way if you disgree you're wrong and not me.
For the most part I agree.  This seems like the most accurate summary of people.
2010-09-07 19:03:17
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6755
*liberals as an American group of people. i wouldn't say there's a worldwide trend in liberals like there is in right-wingers...
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2010-09-07 22:43:04
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,816|6391|eXtreme to the maX

Uzique wrote:

*liberals as an American group of people. i wouldn't say there's a worldwide trend in liberals like there is in right-wingers...
Thats what I meant, according to the American definition.
Liberals by definition are open-minded.

However there's a lot of ranting from the right wing 'liberals dare disagree with right wing theory > liberals are close-minded and intolerant'.
So its hard to sort fact from opinion.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2010-09-07 23:45:58)

Fuck Israel
2010-09-08 03:13:40
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|7001

Ticia wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Cybargs wrote:


Substandard compared to what? Hazardous compared to what? Local standards bro. Sure a lot of sweat shops are shitty compared to the shit you have in the west, but it is a lot better compared to local jobs, especially the pay. Lots of sweatshops aren't forced labour.
While it is true that Ticia's conclusion is somewhat idealistic and that standards are relative, the sweatshop model in the modern context is often very limited in its advantages for a poor country.
I'm talking about how the western world is willing to let go of basic human rights and labor laws in the name of competition. There's nothing shocking about sweatshops in China what is shocking is how we don't give a fuck.
better that than starving to death.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
2010-09-08 04:17:14
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6934

FEOS wrote:

Actually, when you're younger, you tend to know everything.

When you get older, you realize you don't and tend to understand others' thoughts on topics have merit.
Surely that's more than a little ironic coming from someone as stubborn as you?
2010-09-08 04:20:36
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6696|'Murka

ghettoperson wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Actually, when you're younger, you tend to know everything.

When you get older, you realize you don't and tend to understand others' thoughts on topics have merit.
Surely that's more than a little ironic coming from someone as stubborn as you?
There's a difference between being stubborn and being close-minded.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2010-09-08 06:38:30
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6690|North Carolina

Dilbert_X wrote:

Uzique wrote:

*liberals as an American group of people. i wouldn't say there's a worldwide trend in liberals like there is in right-wingers...
Thats what I meant, according to the American definition.
Liberals by definition are open-minded.

However there's a lot of ranting from the right wing 'liberals dare disagree with right wing theory > liberals are close-minded and intolerant'.
So its hard to sort fact from opinion.
No kidding...
2010-09-08 06:47:09
Ticia
Member
+73|5620

Cybargs wrote:

Ticia wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


While it is true that Ticia's conclusion is somewhat idealistic and that standards are relative, the sweatshop model in the modern context is often very limited in its advantages for a poor country.
I'm talking about how the western world is willing to let go of basic human rights and labor laws in the name of competition. There's nothing shocking about sweatshops in China what is shocking is how we don't give a fuck.
better that than starving to death.
Ah yes everything is subjective. They're as civilized as we are so let them be happy with the little they have,right?
2010-09-08 10:36:17
Hunter/Jumper
Member
+117|6639

Turquoise wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

The more I learn, the more I learn I know nothing
Exactly.

This is what I was getting at, Turq.

When you're young, you are convinced (generally) that you know pretty much everything and have the world figured out. It's as you age and gain knowledge through education (both academic and real-world) that you realize you don't. And that opens one's mind. The open-mindedness you think you have as a youth is actually close-mindedness. It takes experience to open one's mind and learn critical thinking skills.

I am more than a little tired of the old saw that "open-mindedness is a liberal trait and close-mindedness is a conservative trait". That is simply hogwash--an attempt by liberal intelligentsia to make themselves appear "better" than their conservative counterparts. Open- or close-mindedness is agnostic of political affiliation. I have seen just as many close-minded liberals in my life as I have seen conservatives with the same trait. And I have seen just as many open-minded conservatives as I have seen open-minded liberals.

Both sides tend to become close-minded when they get a majority in the Congress.
I'll put it this way...  I wish I knew more older people that were open-minded.  Most of the open-minded people I know are younger.
.   
                                             /\
                                              l
                                              l
                                              l

WOW talk about leaning into the Strike Zone   

Show me some one who knows it all and I'll show you someone who has stopped learning.
Never be afraid to ask a question if you want to know.

Last edited by Hunter/Jumper (2010-09-08 10:37:58)

2010-09-08 11:11:56
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6690|North Carolina

Hunter/Jumper wrote:

WOW talk about leaning into the Strike Zone   

Show me some one who knows it all and I'll show you someone who has stopped learning.
Never be afraid to ask a question if you want to know.
The majority of older people I know are very staunch about their opinions and slow to acknowledge alternative points of view -- even when confronted with substantial evidence.  The majority of older people I know are very set in their ways.

Now, I acknowledged that FEOS has apparently had the opposite experience.  Dilbert's argument is probably the most accurate in that open-mindedness seems to be more reflective of personality than of age.

 

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