BF2S Forums Would you die for your country?

JohnG@lt wrote:

Uzique wrote:

shifty how can you agree with that but then be so patriotic and aspire to join the military for nationalist reasons?

doesn't that classify you as a "madman" or a "sociopath"?

I think his patriotism is simply compensation for being an awkward teenager who has never really fit in.

Way to be an ass John, an incorrect ass.

OP: yes i would die for my country USA FTW marines ALL THE WAY

rdx-fx wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

You're just proving my point, blind unthinking allegiance.
And you have no idea what you're talking about when you refer to me.

Now explain how dying in Somalia is in any way a patriotic act.

All I have ever seen of you is trolling, anti-American spittle, and anti-Israeli drivel.
Give me an example of something you believe in, something you care about, that is not driven by fear or hate.
I have plenty of proof right here on these forums of my assertions - where is your proof to the contrary?

And, since you apparently didn't watch or didn't comprehend the point of the above video, I'll do something stereotypically American and sure to piss you off, by linking more of the same 'banal American pop Hollywood noise'.  Y'know, to further prove your point.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=781eSbj9oZY

Uzique wrote:

im sorry, but you're equating dying for brotherhood/comrades/social ties as the same as 'dying for your country'.

they are simply not the same.

if i died for my brother, i wouldn't be dying for merry olde england by proxy. not even part of the thought process.

You put on a uniform because that is your home, that is where your family lives, and (though it may have flaws) the ideals and principles of this country are worth preserving.  It's not perfect, but it's a whole hell of a lot better than most of the alternatives.

There is only one person on this planet that I would outright give my life for the slimmest chance of saving, and that's my daughter.
However, there are a good number of principles, ideals, and people I would risk my life for.

Any person that puts on a uniform for an ideal as obscure as nationalism is a tool. Nothing more.

rdx-fx wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

I think his patriotism is simply compensation for being an awkward teenager who has never really fit in. The camaraderie and instant respect generated by military service appeals to the type.

He's in for a rude shock when he gets to Basic, then.

Correct. I met many of the type and they were always fragile and generally the first ones to crack. Confidence bordering on arrogance (but never shown outwardly, never.) is the only thing that will get you through the rough parts in training.

Phrozenbot wrote:

Which branch?

?

-Sh1fty- wrote:

Of anybody on this forum I certainly hope you don't think I'm an "awkward teenager".

Doesn't matter what anyone thinks.  Everyone goes in for a mix of their own reasons.

You're young and enthusiastic, perhaps a touch of youthful naivety.
Uzique is young, cynical, sarcastic, and has the overconfidence of youth combined with the nihilistic narcissism of the overeducated.
I was somewhere in between, and am now the grumpy old man yelling "get off my lawn, punks!" while flying an American flag on my lawn for reasons the kids find silly and/or incomprehensible. 
You two may grow out of it, I probably won't

Regarding the military..
Some are ragbags looking for an easy out, some couldn't think of any other options, some believed the propaganda on the commercials.
Some believe in the goose-stepping nationalism, some listened to "God Bless the USA" one too many times.
Many went for the college fund.
You get out of it what you put into it, most of the time.  Bust ass, keep your nose clean, don't be an ego case, play well with others - and you might do well (though those same traits pay better as a civilian...).

On the off occasion when the politicians aren't using the military as their own personal PR tool and dick waving machine, military actually sometimes gets to do some good things. Most of these things you will never see on Fox or CNN or BBC.  Medics and Engineers get to do most of these good things.

John Galt summed it up well, "Correct. I met many of the type and they were always fragile and generally the first ones to crack. Confidence bordering on arrogance (but never shown outwardly, never.) is the only thing that will get you through the rough parts in training. "

Or, a Ron White quote, "There's a lot of Quit in that kid"
Don't be that kid.

Last edited by rdx-fx (2010-09-05 22:13:36)

rdx-fx wrote:

-Sh1fty- wrote:

Of anybody on this forum I certainly hope you don't think I'm an "awkward teenager".

Doesn't matter what anyone thinks.  Everyone goes in for a mix of their own reasons.

You're young and enthusiastic, perhaps a touch of youthful naivety.
Uzique is young, cynical, sarcastic, and has the overconfidence of youth combined with the nihilistic narcissism of the overeducated.
I was somewhere in between, and am now the grumpy old man yelling "get off my lawn, punks!" while flying an American flag on my lawn for reasons the kids find silly and/or incomprehensible. 
You two may grow out of it, I probably won't

Regarding the military..
Some are ragbags looking for an easy out, some couldn't think of any other options, some believed the propaganda on the commercials.
Some believe in the goose-stepping nationalism, some listened to "God Bless the USA" one too many times.
Many went for the college fund.
You get out of it what you put into it, most of the time.  Bust ass, keep your nose clean, don't be an ego case, play well with others - and you might do well (though those same traits pay better as a civilian...).

On the off occasion when the politicians aren't using the military as their own personal PR tool and dick waving machine, military actually sometimes gets to do some good things. Most of these things you will never see on Fox or CNN or BBC.  Medics and Engineers get to do most of these good things.

John Galt summed it up well, "Correct. I met many of the type and they were always fragile and generally the first ones to crack. Confidence bordering on arrogance (but never shown outwardly, never.) is the only thing that will get you through the rough parts in training. "

Right, but don't make the mistake of turning it into something it's not. It's nice to reflect back on the time you served and think of it as a noble sacrifice that you undertook so that others might remain free. All that is is whitewash. I never met a man who refused to cash his paycheck every other week. I never met a man that turned down the benefits offered by the military. I did, however, know quite a few that faked injuries in order to cash in on disability checks, shammed their way through work as much as possible, and wouldn't piss on their platoon mates if they were on fire.

This changes in combat to a certain extent due to sharing a common enemy but not nearly to the extent portrayed in the movies or in the stories that former soldiers like to tell civilians. Regaling the ignorant with stories of sacrifice sounds good and adds a good amount of reflected glory onto the storyteller if he himself served, but it is the extremely rare exception rather than the rule. There's been only one Alvin York and one Audie Murphy. One John Basilone. While there are certainly many examples of heroism and valiant deaths, they are outnumbered by the multitudes of people killed instantly or while cowering in terror.

Dilbert_X wrote:

Every major nation-threatening war has required conscription to defend it.
Think about that.

What does conscription have to do with anything?

Dilbert_X wrote:

Well the point is your/my fellow countrymen aren't so concerned about dying to defend country, let alone its 'principles and ideals', that they'll actually volunteer for it.

For the same reason the proletariat will never rise (as pointed out by Orwell), the vast majority of people would rather simply put their head down and plod through life. Who their master is doesn't matter to this type.

JohnG@lt wrote:

Right, but don't make the mistake of turning it into something it's not. It's nice to reflect back on the time you served and think of it as a noble sacrifice that you undertook so that others might remain free. All that is is whitewash. I never met a man who refused to cash his paycheck every other week. I never met a man that turned down the benefits offered by the military. I did, however, know quite a few that faked injuries in order to cash in on disability checks, shammed their way through work as much as possible, and wouldn't piss on their platoon mates if they were on fire.

This changes in combat to a certain extent due to sharing a common enemy but not nearly to the extent portrayed in the movies or in the stories that former soldiers like to tell civilians. Regaling the ignorant with stories of sacrifice sounds good and adds a good amount of reflected glory onto the storyteller if he himself served, but it is the extremely rare exception rather than the rule. There's been only one Alvin York and one Audie Murphy. One John Basilone. While there are certainly many examples of heroism and valiant deaths, they are outnumbered by the multitudes of people killed instantly or while cowering in terror.

"Glory" is illusion, bullshit, PR, and ego.  "Cool Guy" stories are usually wildly inflated.

Things you can remember when you're 90 years old, looking at yourself in the mirror, asking if you ever did anything worth a damn are things like; going to a foreign shithole and helping build facilities to make the people's lives a little better (makes you appreciate the embarrassment of riches we take for granted here), not pissing yourself and doing what needed to be done when someone was truly fucked up hurt, or continuing to call in an enemy position when you knew that position was going to kill you in the next 5 seconds.

But in case someone gets the mistaken impression it's all power chords, flag waving, and "Team America, fuck yeah!";

RDX-fX wrote:

On the off occasion when the politicians aren't using the military as their own personal PR tool and dick waving machine, military actually sometimes gets to do some good things. Most of these things you will never see on Fox or CNN or BBC.  Medics and Engineers get to do most of these good things.

JohnG@lt wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Well the point is your/my fellow countrymen aren't so concerned about dying to defend country, let alone its 'principles and ideals', that they'll actually volunteer for it.

For the same reason the proletariat will never rise (as pointed out by Orwell), the vast majority of people would rather simply put their head down and plod through life. Who their master is doesn't matter to this type.

The Russians, French, Mexicans, Cubans and obviously the mutinous Americans did.
If the French can do it anyone can.

well... let me put it this way: there are quite a bit of things i associate with the nation i live in that i find worth defending with my life - so, yes, i'd like to think that i'd be able to stand against anybody who tries to take those away. even though i dodged the conscription - i certanly have my own good idea of what to do with two years of my life beside building another dacha for some fucking general of whom there are probably more in russia then in several of wourd's strongest armies combined - i try be keep myself fit, i know how to handle firearms, i have many skills that might come handy if shit does hit the fan.
on the other hand politics, propaganda, laws and all that shit is so easily abused that one can never be sure if whatever he's fighting for is actually he real thing. that's why i always thought that it takes a special kind of dumbass to actually want to be in the military for the purposes of "defending his nation", especially when the nation is not really at any risk of being attacked.

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

It wasn't a rising so much as a prolonged riot headed by people who kept them moving around.

Are we talking about the Revolutionaries then or the Tea Partiers now?