Pages: 1 … 6 7 8 9 10

 

2010-09-05 11:27:46
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5643|London, England

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


Fair enough, but that sounds like a pretty sweet deal.  They pay less for care but still reap the benefits of our research.  The same goes for military protection.
Point is, their system is unsustainable without the individualist, capitalist, 'unfair', system we have here that you seem to despise so much. Reaping benefits without expending any effort is the cowards way to go through life. It's parasitic. It's also silly because the Western world has built a house of cards entirely dependent on our continued existence. If we collapse, or cave in to the demands of our own left, they're all going down with us.
No, no...  I think I understand it now.  Basically, as long as you continue to consume as much of the rest of the world's goods as possible and do as much research as possible, the rest of the world benefits.  It doesn't really matter in the long run how the average American fares in this -- it only matters that you stay afloat and keep doing your thing.  I can relate to that.

The only catch is...  that means that things are going to suck for the average American in the long run, as your system essentially just focuses on overall consumption and research without much consideration of cost of living.

Ideally, this means that the average person is best off in a country like Canada, where they can pay less for American advances and thrive off of the consumption of Americans for their businesses.  Also, America gets to do the heavy lifting of being the world's police.
My system? In my world the American government kills the military to the point that it is only big enough to defend our own borders and forces the rest of the world to fend for itself.

And what's all this crap about not caring how the average American fares? The quality of life in this country is outstanding and has everything to do with our capitalist economy.

But whatever, give up, move to Canada and become a parasite instead of thriving within the best and most meritocratic economic model on the planet.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-09-05 11:32:24
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6690|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:

My system? In my world the American government kills the military to the point that it is only big enough to defend our own borders and forces the rest of the world to fend for itself.
That wouldn't be very capitalistic of you...  We have a military industrial complex to maintain. 

JohnG@lt wrote:

And what's all this crap about not caring how the average American fares? The quality of life in this country is outstanding and has everything to do with our capitalist economy.
Of course, and nothing to do with public amenities... 

JohnG@lt wrote:

But whatever, give up, move to Canada and become a parasite instead of thriving within the best and most meritocratic economic model on the planet.
Wave that flag harder please.  U-S-A!!!!
2010-09-05 11:36:04
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5643|London, England

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

My system? In my world the American government kills the military to the point that it is only big enough to defend our own borders and forces the rest of the world to fend for itself.
That wouldn't be very capitalistic of you...  We have a military industrial complex to maintain. 
The MIC is a parasite of it's own dependent on public funding.

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

And what's all this crap about not caring how the average American fares? The quality of life in this country is outstanding and has everything to do with our capitalist economy.
Of course, and nothing to do with public amenities... 
There isn't a public amenity on the planet that can compete with a privately run one. Would I want the military run by a private corporation? No, but if it was private it would be run much more efficiently.

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

But whatever, give up, move to Canada and become a parasite instead of thriving within the best and most meritocratic economic model on the planet.
Wave that flag harder please.  U-S-A!!!!
It's got nothing to do with being a flag waver. If I was Canadian born I would try to move here as soon as possible because I agree with the economic system. You get out of it what you put into it. My goal in life is not mediocrity.

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-09-05 11:36:53)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-09-05 11:39:03
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6690|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

My system? In my world the American government kills the military to the point that it is only big enough to defend our own borders and forces the rest of the world to fend for itself.
That wouldn't be very capitalistic of you...  We have a military industrial complex to maintain. 
The MIC is a parasite of it's own dependent on public funding.
Well, at least we agree on that.

JohnG@lt wrote:

There isn't a public amenity on the planet that can compete with a privately run one. Would I want the military run by a private corporation? No, but if it was private it would be run much more efficiently.
Efficiency isn't everything.

JohnG@lt wrote:

It's got nothing to do with being a flag waver. If I was Canadian born I would try to move here as soon as possible because I agree with the economic system. You get out of it what you put into it.
I can't say I would.  It seems more like the system gets more out of you than anything else.
2010-09-05 11:46:39
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5643|London, England

Turquoise wrote:

Efficiency isn't everything.
I am an engineer. Efficiency is everything.

Turquoise wrote:

I can't say I would.  It seems more like the system gets more out of you than anything else.
For all the bitching that people do in this country, we still have some of the lowest tax rates in the developed world. Maybe it's my working class roots, but I take immense pride in a job well done. I don't mind working hard when I am compensated adequately. This means retaining the ability to set my own wage. When you remove the profit motive, you remove all motivation. When I got out of the military I could've settled for a nice cushy government job and consigned myself to a life of easy boredom. Instead, I have made the choice to test myself, better myself, and thrive or fail on my own merits. The system as designed is for competitive people.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-09-05 11:54:26
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6690|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Efficiency isn't everything.
I am an engineer. Efficiency is everything.
I'm an economist.  Net benefits and opportunity costs are everything. 

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

I can't say I would.  It seems more like the system gets more out of you than anything else.
For all the bitching that people do in this country, we still have some of the lowest tax rates in the developed world. Maybe it's my working class roots, but I take immense pride in a job well done. I don't mind working hard when I am compensated adequately. This means retaining the ability to set my own wage. When you remove the profit motive, you remove all motivation. When I got out of the military I could've settled for a nice cushy government job and consigned myself to a life of easy boredom. Instead, I have made the choice to test myself, better myself, and thrive or fail on my own merits. The system as designed is for competitive people.
...and that's not solely characteristic of the American system.
2010-09-05 11:56:48
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5643|London, England

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Efficiency isn't everything.
I am an engineer. Efficiency is everything.
I'm an economist.  Net benefits and opportunity costs are everything. 

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

I can't say I would.  It seems more like the system gets more out of you than anything else.
For all the bitching that people do in this country, we still have some of the lowest tax rates in the developed world. Maybe it's my working class roots, but I take immense pride in a job well done. I don't mind working hard when I am compensated adequately. This means retaining the ability to set my own wage. When you remove the profit motive, you remove all motivation. When I got out of the military I could've settled for a nice cushy government job and consigned myself to a life of easy boredom. Instead, I have made the choice to test myself, better myself, and thrive or fail on my own merits. The system as designed is for competitive people.
...and that's not solely characteristic of the American system.
Yes, it really is. Any time you institute things like price controls, massive regulations, and everything else designed to remove as much of the competitive nature of human beings from the system you end up with what I described earlier, the long slow death.

Why do you think American conservatives complain so much about leftist school doctrine in places like California that have gotten rid of grades, have made bullying a crime, and made ebonics an official school language? How are these kids going to survive, let alone thrive, in the real world where competition is king?

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-09-05 12:00:55)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-09-05 12:03:58
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6833|San Diego, CA, USA
They don't want them to strive or succeed.  I believe the ruling class wants them dependent (and thus loyal voters), to them.  Once you get 50%+1 of the people sucking at the teat of government you will rule forever.
2010-09-05 12:06:48
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5643|London, England

Harmor wrote:

They don't want them to strive or succeed.  I believe the ruling class wants them dependent (and thus loyal voters), to them.  Once you get 50%+1 of the people sucking at the teat of government you will rule forever.
No, I don't believe there is any vast conspiracy such as that. It's just a misguided attempt to soften life for these kids and the end result is going to be a massive crop of pussies in for a rude awakening.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-09-05 12:10:31
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6690|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:

Yes, it really is. Any time you institute things like price controls, massive regulations, and everything else designed to remove as much of the competitive nature of human beings from the system you end up with what I described earlier, the long slow death.

Why do you think American conservatives complain so much about leftist school doctrine in places like California that have gotten rid of grades, have made bullying a crime, and made ebonics an official school language? How are these kids going to survive, let alone thrive, in the real world where competition is king?
I think the "long slow death" has more to do with the dysfunctional nature of a society that goes far too much in the individualist direction.
2010-09-05 12:12:55
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5643|London, England

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Yes, it really is. Any time you institute things like price controls, massive regulations, and everything else designed to remove as much of the competitive nature of human beings from the system you end up with what I described earlier, the long slow death.

Why do you think American conservatives complain so much about leftist school doctrine in places like California that have gotten rid of grades, have made bullying a crime, and made ebonics an official school language? How are these kids going to survive, let alone thrive, in the real world where competition is king?
I think the "long slow death" has more to do with the dysfunctional nature of a society that goes far too much in the individualist direction.
"Out of chaos, brilliant stars are born."
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-09-05 16:17:59
Ticia
Member
+73|5620

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Efficiency isn't everything.
I am an engineer. Efficiency is everything.

Turquoise wrote:

I can't say I would.  It seems more like the system gets more out of you than anything else.
For all the bitching that people do in this country, we still have some of the lowest tax rates in the developed world. Maybe it's my working class roots, but I take immense pride in a job well done. I don't mind working hard when I am compensated adequately. This means retaining the ability to set my own wage. When you remove the profit motive, you remove all motivation. When I got out of the military I could've settled for a nice cushy government job and consigned myself to a life of easy boredom. Instead, I have made the choice to test myself, better myself, and thrive or fail on my own merits. The system as designed is for competitive people.
Don't make the mistake of confusing wanting to better yourself with just being greedy.

I hear the re-made Wall Street is coming out soon,must check it.
Greed is good! Greed is right! Greed works! Greed will save the USA!


JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

...and that's not solely characteristic of the American system.
Yes, it really is. Any time you institute things like price controls, massive regulations, and everything else designed to remove as much of the competitive nature of human beings from the system you end up with what I described earlier, the long slow death.

Why do you think American conservatives complain so much about leftist school doctrine in places like California that have gotten rid of grades, have made bullying a crime, and made ebonics an official school language? How are these kids going to survive, let alone thrive, in the real world where competition is king?
Nah,competition needs rules like everything else. If you're praising human nature then prepare yourself for a "don't blink 'cause you'll miss it death" instead.
2010-09-05 16:30:44
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5643|London, England

Ticia wrote:

Don't make the mistake of confusing wanting to better yourself with just being greedy.

I hear the re-made Wall Street is coming out soon,must check it.
Greed is good! Greed is right! Greed works! Greed will save the USA!
They are the same.

Ticia wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Yes, it really is. Any time you institute things like price controls, massive regulations, and everything else designed to remove as much of the competitive nature of human beings from the system you end up with what I described earlier, the long slow death.

Why do you think American conservatives complain so much about leftist school doctrine in places like California that have gotten rid of grades, have made bullying a crime, and made ebonics an official school language? How are these kids going to survive, let alone thrive, in the real world where competition is king?
Nah,competition needs rules like everything else. If you're praising human nature then prepare yourself for a "don't blink 'cause you'll miss it death" instead.
Hindered competition is why we end up with non-competitive businesses.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-09-06 07:19:59
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6696|'Murka

Turquoise wrote:

Hunter/Jumper wrote:

ghettoperson wrote:

To be fair, if you got 10,000 50+ year olds from any political background together I wouldn't expect there to be much litter.
True most liberals are younger - than comes - experience, success, responsibility, reality, wisdom and change.
...or complacency and rigidity of thought.
Actually, when you're younger, you tend to know everything.

When you get older, you realize you don't and tend to understand others' thoughts on topics have merit.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2010-09-06 09:08:32
Ticia
Member
+73|5620

JohnG@lt wrote:

Ticia wrote:

Don't make the mistake of confusing wanting to better yourself with just being greedy.

I hear the re-made Wall Street is coming out soon,must check it.
Greed is good! Greed is right! Greed works! Greed will save the USA!
They are the same.

Ticia wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Yes, it really is. Any time you institute things like price controls, massive regulations, and everything else designed to remove as much of the competitive nature of human beings from the system you end up with what I described earlier, the long slow death.

Why do you think American conservatives complain so much about leftist school doctrine in places like California that have gotten rid of grades, have made bullying a crime, and made ebonics an official school language? How are these kids going to survive, let alone thrive, in the real world where competition is king?
Nah,competition needs rules like everything else. If you're praising human nature then prepare yourself for a "don't blink 'cause you'll miss it death" instead.
Hindered competition is why we end up with non-competitive businesses.
Any business that administers forced and child labor, substandard wages, excessive overtime or hazardous working conditions can be super competitive too. Would you want to live there?
The real competition can only take place when is fair. Just like in boxing athletes are in the same weight range or in a race there’s a starting line for all.
2010-09-06 10:24:45
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6690|North Carolina

FEOS wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Hunter/Jumper wrote:


True most liberals are younger - than comes - experience, success, responsibility, reality, wisdom and change.
...or complacency and rigidity of thought.
Actually, when you're younger, you tend to know everything.

When you get older, you realize you don't and tend to understand others' thoughts on topics have merit.
It's been my personal experience that older people tend to be more set in their ways -- hence, rigidity of thought.  By contrast, younger people are more adaptable.

Understanding other's thoughts have merit is actually more of a liberal trait -- open-mindedness in general is more liberal in nature.  Granted, as with any ideology, there are dogmatic idiots.
2010-09-06 10:28:00
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6690|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:

Ticia wrote:

Don't make the mistake of confusing wanting to better yourself with just being greedy.

I hear the re-made Wall Street is coming out soon,must check it.
Greed is good! Greed is right! Greed works! Greed will save the USA!
They are the same.
Greed and ambition may sometimes overlap.  That doesn't mean they are the same.

JohnG@lt wrote:

Ticia wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Yes, it really is. Any time you institute things like price controls, massive regulations, and everything else designed to remove as much of the competitive nature of human beings from the system you end up with what I described earlier, the long slow death.

Why do you think American conservatives complain so much about leftist school doctrine in places like California that have gotten rid of grades, have made bullying a crime, and made ebonics an official school language? How are these kids going to survive, let alone thrive, in the real world where competition is king?
Nah,competition needs rules like everything else. If you're praising human nature then prepare yourself for a "don't blink 'cause you'll miss it death" instead.
Hindered competition is why we end up with non-competitive businesses.
Hindered competition is just as often a result of governmental intervention as it is natural barriers to entry for a given market.
2010-09-06 10:31:33
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|7001

Ticia wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Ticia wrote:

Don't make the mistake of confusing wanting to better yourself with just being greedy.

I hear the re-made Wall Street is coming out soon,must check it.
Greed is good! Greed is right! Greed works! Greed will save the USA!
They are the same.

Ticia wrote:


Nah,competition needs rules like everything else. If you're praising human nature then prepare yourself for a "don't blink 'cause you'll miss it death" instead.
Hindered competition is why we end up with non-competitive businesses.
Any business that administers forced and child labor, substandard wages, excessive overtime or hazardous working conditions can be super competitive too. Would you want to live there?
The real competition can only take place when is fair. Just like in boxing athletes are in the same weight range or in a race there’s a starting line for all.
Substandard compared to what? Hazardous compared to what? Local standards bro. Sure a lot of sweat shops are shitty compared to the shit you have in the west, but it is a lot better compared to local jobs, especially the pay. Lots of sweatshops aren't forced labour.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
2010-09-06 10:36:26
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6690|North Carolina

Cybargs wrote:

Ticia wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Ticia wrote:

Don't make the mistake of confusing wanting to better yourself with just being greedy.

I hear the re-made Wall Street is coming out soon,must check it.
Greed is good! Greed is right! Greed works! Greed will save the USA!
They are the same.


Hindered competition is why we end up with non-competitive businesses.
Any business that administers forced and child labor, substandard wages, excessive overtime or hazardous working conditions can be super competitive too. Would you want to live there?
The real competition can only take place when is fair. Just like in boxing athletes are in the same weight range or in a race there’s a starting line for all.
Substandard compared to what? Hazardous compared to what? Local standards bro. Sure a lot of sweat shops are shitty compared to the shit you have in the west, but it is a lot better compared to local jobs, especially the pay. Lots of sweatshops aren't forced labour.
While it is true that Ticia's conclusion is somewhat idealistic and that standards are relative, the sweatshop model in the modern context is often very limited in its advantages for a poor country.

Nike is a high profile company that will start up sweatshops in poor countries and stay just long enough that a local economy becomes dependent on their facilities, only to have them leave in a few years when wages become slightly higher than in poorer areas with labor opportunities.

In short, timing is everything.  The sweatshop model of business may or may not be forced, but in the long run, it will often only provide temporary benefits to a poor country.  This does not necessarily advance the given country economically in any meaningful sense, because of the dependency that arises with the company.
2010-09-06 10:36:41
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5544|foggy bottom
the nike factories in vietnam pay more than the local doctors get
Tu Stultus Es
2010-09-06 10:38:39
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6690|North Carolina

eleven bravo wrote:

the nike factories in vietnam pay more than the local doctors get
Yes, but the question is how long will they remain there?

If they were to leave today, what effect would that have on the local economy?
2010-09-06 10:57:27
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|7001

Turquoise wrote:

eleven bravo wrote:

the nike factories in vietnam pay more than the local doctors get
Yes, but the question is how long will they remain there?

If they were to leave today, what effect would that have on the local economy?
when it becomes too expensive to remain there... china is booming now and they have people starting their own business. usually what happens is not only job that gets into a country, but a lot of training and entrepreneurship as well. nike just doesn't come and build a factory, factories already existed and huge companies outsource work to said factories. when it gets expensive the owner of that same factory will probably try to start their own brand or get contracts from other companies.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
2010-09-06 11:02:07
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6690|North Carolina

Cybargs wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

eleven bravo wrote:

the nike factories in vietnam pay more than the local doctors get
Yes, but the question is how long will they remain there?

If they were to leave today, what effect would that have on the local economy?
when it becomes too expensive to remain there... china is booming now and they have people starting their own business. usually what happens is not only job that gets into a country, but a lot of training and entrepreneurship as well. nike just doesn't come and build a factory, factories already existed and huge companies outsource work to said factories. when it gets expensive the owner of that same factory will probably try to start their own brand or get contracts from other companies.
While it is true that China has several sweatshops and that some have since left for cheaper labor, China's success is not solely tied to sweatshops.

What makes or breaks a developing economy that has sweatshops is reinvestment in infrastructure.  China wisely has reinvested in its infrastructure and diversified its economy while it was one of the cheapest sources of labor.  Now that this is changing, China is shifting more in an industrialized direction.

In short, it wasn't the sweatshops alone that progressed China's economy -- it was what they did (both privately and governmentally) with the money they earned.

Unfortunately, many poorer countries do not successfully apply the money they earn towards greater industrialization.  Much of Africa has failed in this respect.
2010-09-06 11:07:40
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|7001

Turquoise wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


Yes, but the question is how long will they remain there?

If they were to leave today, what effect would that have on the local economy?
when it becomes too expensive to remain there... china is booming now and they have people starting their own business. usually what happens is not only job that gets into a country, but a lot of training and entrepreneurship as well. nike just doesn't come and build a factory, factories already existed and huge companies outsource work to said factories. when it gets expensive the owner of that same factory will probably try to start their own brand or get contracts from other companies.
While it is true that China has several sweatshops and that some have since left for cheaper labor, China's success is not solely tied to sweatshops.

What makes or breaks a developing economy that has sweatshops is reinvestment in infrastructure.  China wisely has reinvested in its infrastructure and diversified its economy while it was one of the cheapest sources of labor.  Now that this is changing, China is shifting more in an industrialized direction.

In short, it wasn't the sweatshops alone that progressed China's economy -- it was what they did (both privately and governmentally) with the money they earned.

Unfortunately, many poorer countries do not successfully apply the money they earn towards greater industrialization.  Much of Africa has failed in this respect.
I don't think Africa has many sweatshops to begin with... They gotta solve a shitload of conflicts first. Signing onto the WTO was a big hit for china because loads of companies started investing into china... things get taxed, better infrastructure is built etc... lots of poorer countries in SE asia are developing very nicely because of sweatshops... especially vietnam and thailand. money is never static. wealth gets created, lots of new entrepreneurs etc. i know this is how taiwan got its economy kicking up.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
2010-09-06 11:11:13
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6690|North Carolina

Cybargs wrote:

I don't think Africa has many sweatshops to begin with... They gotta solve a shitload of conflicts first. Signing onto the WTO was a big hit for china because loads of companies started investing into china... things get taxed, better infrastructure is built etc... lots of poorer countries in SE asia are developing very nicely because of sweatshops... especially vietnam and thailand. money is never static. wealth gets created, lots of new entrepreneurs etc. i know this is how taiwan got its economy kicking up.
Well again, the countries that succeed are applying the money they earn effectively.  It's not just the fact that sweatshops have moved to these areas.

I guess what I'm getting at is that sweatshops can be a nice source of revenue, but they are a temporary stimulus for an economy.  What is more important is what is done with the money involved.

Last edited by Turquoise (2010-09-06 11:11:47)

 

Pages: 1 … 6 7 8 9 10

Board footer

Privacy Policy - © 2025 Jeff Minard