I suppose if the us and uk commited all their military force and intelligence agencies and then some to create an afgan big brother society we might be able to win that way. Massively impractical and expensive though and will never happen. Stupid suggestion tbh.
Doesn't look any different from all the other war documentaries ever done. The enemy is always the other side.
The highlighted portion speaks to the vast chasm of difference between the two situations...and thus, perspectives on the situation.Shahter wrote:
orly? how then did soviets manage to subdue and control all those asian republics, like uzbekistan, tajikistan and all the other fucking -stan's? those were exactly like afghanistan - shitholes populated by barbarians stuck in the stone age and tearing at each others throats before soviets came and imposed order on them, and they are quickly falling back now that they are left to themselves.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Don't bitch when this happens.
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
of course. but, perspectives or not, soviets had results, and you only managed to kick the wasp nest and get yourself and everybody else around it stung. when you get any results - come back to me, we'll discuss this further.FEOS wrote:
The highlighted portion speaks to the vast chasm of difference between the two situations...and thus, perspectives on the situation.Shahter wrote:
orly? how then did soviets manage to subdue and control all those asian republics, like uzbekistan, tajikistan and all the other fucking -stan's? those were exactly like afghanistan - shitholes populated by barbarians stuck in the stone age and tearing at each others throats before soviets came and imposed order on them, and they are quickly falling back now that they are left to themselves.
@ the rest of teh free and the brave - and to enlightened and civilized too: you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. most of you have never been to russia, chechnia, any "-stan" and certailny never even spoken without a translator to a single person who lived, done business, or even sat with a cup o'chai with those of whom you are so quickly claim to know so much. me - i spent fucking 34 years living in this country, i vitnessed with my own eyes everything that you've only seen on TV doctored and filled with propaganda of worst description. and you are telling me what it was like, how it all was a "shithole", and how you will make it all better? you played a certain role in destroying ussr, yeah, i'll give you that, but who the fuck are you to claim to know how to fix what's been broken? you, who never fixed anything of the sort before, you, who used the very same fucking methods you now so readily condemn yourself in the past when faced by the same problems we now have in the middle east - you telling me, a person, who actually experienced both worlds for himself, how it works and how it doesn't? xcuse me, but are you on crack, gentlemen?
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
You play the propaganda card too much. "Everyones brainwashed but me", its getting tiresome. Living in russia has no bearing on your knowledge of afghanistan, people don't need to live near a country to have an informed opinion. Give it a rest with trying to dismiss everyone with propaganda.
There are people here that have a closed mind, ill informed opinions and believe whatever they are spoon fed. Those people are:
Harmor
Stingray
Lowing
Hunter/jumper
And few others, so you can stop assuming about everyone else.
There are people here that have a closed mind, ill informed opinions and believe whatever they are spoon fed. Those people are:
Harmor
Stingray
Lowing
Hunter/jumper
And few others, so you can stop assuming about everyone else.
capitalist propagandajord wrote:
You play the propaganda card too much. "Everyones brainwashed but me", its getting tiresome. Living in russia has no bearing on your knowledge of afghanistan, people don't need to live near a country to have an informed opinion. Give it a rest with trying to dismiss everyone with propaganda.
There are people here that have a closed mind, ill informed opinions and believe whatever they are spoon fed. Those people are:
Harmor
Stingray
Lowing
Hunter/jumper
And few others, so you can stop assuming about everyone else.
Here, I fixed it. Don't want you to think I was focusing on the "Soviet" bit...Shahter wrote:
of course. but, perspectives or not, soviets had results, and you only managed to kick the wasp nest and get yourself and everybody else around it stung. when you get any results - come back to me, we'll discuss this further.FEOS wrote:
The highlighted portion speaks to the vast chasm of difference between the two situations...and thus, perspectives on the situation.Shahter wrote:
orly? how then did soviets manage to subdue and control all those asian republics, like uzbekistan, tajikistan and all the other fucking -stan's? those were exactly like afghanistan - shitholes populated by barbarians stuck in the stone age and tearing at each others throats before soviets came and imposed order on them, and they are quickly falling back now that they are left to themselves.
That's the vast chasm of difference I was talking about. You're focused on subduing and controlling, thinking that's the way you do it. That approach has worked well for the Soviets thus far in their own counterinsurgencies, hasn't it?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Chechen_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chechen_War
Or not.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
this thread is now in wildly shitty territory as fucking americans and former-soviets argue how to best 'subdue' a country.
at this point im going to be a well-mannered and gentrified european and step out of this rather ridiculous discourse.
whoever 'wins' this USA vs. USSR contest over fucking up small states... congratulations in advance
at this point im going to be a well-mannered and gentrified european and step out of this rather ridiculous discourse.
whoever 'wins' this USA vs. USSR contest over fucking up small states... congratulations in advance
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Trying to keep the Taliban from running Afghanistan--ie, letting the people of Afghanistan decide their own fate democratically--is "fucking up small states".
Way to totally miss the point of the discussion, Zique.
Way to totally miss the point of the discussion, Zique.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
the tribal culture of afghanistan worked with the taliban, tbh. im with shahter on that one.
local tribal lords negotiated with taliban representatives and kept their small, decentralized powers and cultures.
your mention of democracy is essentially 'the process of forcing western styles of government upon non-western peoples'
local tribal lords negotiated with taliban representatives and kept their small, decentralized powers and cultures.
your mention of democracy is essentially 'the process of forcing western styles of government upon non-western peoples'
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Not necessarily. You assume westernized democracy. When I say democracy, I merely mean representative government. Afghanistan's government still consists of jirghas, which incorporates their tribal customs.Uzique wrote:
the tribal culture of afghanistan worked with the taliban, tbh. im with shahter on that one.
local tribal lords negotiated with taliban representatives and kept their small, decentralized powers and cultures.
your mention of democracy is essentially 'the process of forcing western styles of government upon non-western peoples'
Probably ought to read up on the situation a bit before you wade into the argument. Shouldn't be an issue for you, since you like to read so much.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
what's not 'representative' about local tribal leaders working with a centralized government authority?
im touched that you take such interest in my own hobbies, btw!
im touched that you take such interest in my own hobbies, btw!
Last edited by Uzique (2010-09-02 20:00:48)
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
clever boy.Uzique wrote:
at this point im going to be a well-mannered and gentrified european and step out
that's the only way that ever worked.FEOS wrote:
You're focused on subduing and controlling, thinking that's the way you do it.
yes. they managed to impose order on otherwise completely lawless regions, then build them up.That approach has worked well for the Soviets thus far in their own counterinsurgencies, hasn't it?
ended in a failure because it wasn't against afghanis alone.Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan
at the time there wasn't ussr anymore. ussr de-facto collapsed shortly after gorbachev got into power, what happened in 1991 was simply a final nail in the coffin. at stalin's time there wouldn't have been any chechen war at all (obviously).First_Chechen_War
Second_Chechen_War
so, yeah, soviets did very well against "insurgencies". extremely well i'd say.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
the new white man's burden, eh?Uzique wrote:
the tribal culture of afghanistan worked with the taliban, tbh. im with shahter on that one.
local tribal lords negotiated with taliban representatives and kept their small, decentralized powers and cultures.
your mention of democracy is essentially 'the process of forcing western styles of government upon non-western peoples'
Your "logic" is astounding.Shahter wrote:
clever boy.Uzique wrote:
at this point im going to be a well-mannered and gentrified european and step outthat's the only way that ever worked.FEOS wrote:
You're focused on subduing and controlling, thinking that's the way you do it.yes. they managed to impose order on otherwise completely lawless regions, then build them up.That approach has worked well for the Soviets thus far in their own counterinsurgencies, hasn't it?ended in a failure because it wasn't against afghanis alone.Soviet_war_in_Afghanistanat the time there wasn't ussr anymore. ussr de-facto collapsed shortly after gorbachev got into power, what happened in 1991 was simply a final nail in the coffin. at stalin's time there wouldn't have been any chechen war at all (obviously).First_Chechen_War
Second_Chechen_War
so, yeah, soviets did very well against "insurgencies". extremely well i'd say.
I guess Vietnam wasn't a failure for the US because it wasn't against the Vietnamese alone, then. Right. Makes perfect sense.
Failure is failure. The Soviets failed in Afghanistan. It was a counterinsurgency that they tried to fight by using overwhelming force. And they failed. Hence, a failed counterinsurgency using the strategy and tactics you say didn't fail.
Chechen Wars. Doesn't matter whether the USSR existed or not. It was the same military strategy executed by the same military against insurgents. And it failed. Again.
Yet you say those three gems weren't failures. Somehow. Truly mind-boggling. If those "worked", I'd truly hate to see what "doesn't work".
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
I should point out the British did pretty well 'subduing' most of the world for a good while, maybe the US and USSR should take note.Uzique wrote:
this thread is now in wildly shitty territory as fucking americans and former-soviets argue how to best 'subdue' a country.
at this point im going to be a well-mannered and gentrified european and step out of this rather ridiculous discourse.
whoever 'wins' this USA vs. USSR contest over fucking up small states... congratulations in advance
Fuck Israel
That's like asking 'What's not representative about vichy France working with Nazi Germany', except it makes less sense.Uzique wrote:
what's not 'representative' about local tribal leaders working with a centralized government authority?
Though by his attitude and moral relativism, I can perfectly see someone like Uzique working for the Nazis in Vichy France, muttering something about 'Troublesome peasants, why can't they just work with the centralized government authority in Berlin?'
If you cannot explain how the Taliban, or Soviet-style domination, isn't a 'representative' government, your parents should ask for a very large refund from the ostensibly very expensive private prep school you attended, Uzique.
If you may recall, the "fucking Americans" helped the "well-mannered and gentrified Europeans" keep the Soviets from turning more of Europe into a Soviet satellite state for over 50 years. Do you remember why the Americans were helping against the Soviets, way back in ancient history, 20 years ago?Uzique wrote:
this thread is now in wildly shitty territory as fucking americans and former-soviets argue how to best 'subdue' a country.
And the 'wildly shitty territory' you're lifting your nose at, is the American efforts to get willing cooperation from the Afghani population, over the Sovet viewpoint of 'forced' cooperation at the threat of mass bombings, over the Taliban viewpoint of 'Do exactly as we say, or Allah will have us visit genocide on you'.
Soviet occupation may be a step up from the Taliban's rule, but it is still a far cry from a truly representative government.
But thank fuck for Uzique stopping by, with the 'Gentrified European' perspective. Without the 'Nobles' lifting their noses at anything remotely American, while staring at their perfectly manicured fingernails horrified at the thought of getting any dirt or blood under them, the US would not be the Superpower it is today. So, "Thanks!" - you let the labor become the management.
This is the same lesson the Islamic Fundamentalists are trying to teach us, too; 'fight to defend what you have built, or we will fight to remake it to our ideals'
So, again, which is it; Chamberlain or Churchill?
It did start with the US saying to the Taliban "Do exactly as we say, or Uncle Sam will have us visit genocide on you", which is exactly what then happened.And the 'wildly shitty territory' you're lifting your nose at, is the American efforts to get willing cooperation from the Afghani population, over the Sovet viewpoint of 'forced' cooperation at the threat of mass bombings, over the Taliban viewpoint of 'Do exactly as we say, or Allah will have us visit genocide on you'.
'Representative government' is an alien concept to the middle east, its essentially a waste of time.
Fuck Israel
No democracy is not an alien concept in the ME. That's the ignorant mindset of many westerners. wtf is with the shit thinking only white people can be in a democracy?Dilbert_X wrote:
It did start with the US saying to the Taliban "Do exactly as we say, or Uncle Sam will have us visit genocide on you", which is exactly what then happened.And the 'wildly shitty territory' you're lifting your nose at, is the American efforts to get willing cooperation from the Afghani population, over the Sovet viewpoint of 'forced' cooperation at the threat of mass bombings, over the Taliban viewpoint of 'Do exactly as we say, or Allah will have us visit genocide on you'.
'Representative government' is an alien concept to the middle east, its essentially a waste of time.
US Style representative government simply doesn't work in Africa or the ME, its that simple.
Fuck Israel
Western Democracy there would be a waste of time, true.Dilbert_X wrote:
'Representative government' is an alien concept to the middle east, its essentially a waste of time.
It would look like a bad caricature of Mexican Democracy in short order.
A parliamentary system, though, is workable.
If they are all going to be lumped into the arbitrary boundaries of the nation of Afghanistan (and there's the flawed premise from the word 'Go'...), then to maintain a peace, the different tribal and ethnic factions need to have their voice heard and their territories respected.
Regardless, the form of government will be decided by the Afghanis.
Afghani - you can speak at them until you're blue in the face, but you can't tell them a damn thing.
And don't mistake a simple people for a dumb people. They can be clever to the point of making self-satisfied westerners look like drooling idiots.
A government representative of the Afghani people, no matter the eventual form, will be a noisy beast of a government. But, hopefully, it will be a more equitable, peaceful government than the Taliban.
And, Dilbert, your other assertion was so silly a troll, it wasn't worth quoting.
'Evicted from power' isn't 'genocide'.
Last edited by rdx-fx (2010-09-04 02:22:15)
I don't think strapping rebel leaders to cannons would give us such a great world image nowadays.Dilbert_X wrote:
I should point out the British did pretty well 'subduing' most of the world for a good while, maybe the US and USSR should take note.Uzique wrote:
this thread is now in wildly shitty territory as fucking americans and former-soviets argue how to best 'subdue' a country.
at this point im going to be a well-mannered and gentrified european and step out of this rather ridiculous discourse.
whoever 'wins' this USA vs. USSR contest over fucking up small states... congratulations in advance
There you have it, trying to turn the various tribal lands of the ME into the United States of Arabia is simply a non-starter - better to forget it and try something which has a chance of working.rdx-fx wrote:
and there's the flawed premise from the word 'Go'...
Whats the matter, don't like what you see in the mirror?And, Dilbert, your other assertion was so silly a troll, it wasn't worth quoting.
Fuck Israel
ffs, try reading what i posted. ussr failed in afghanistan. does it mean the methods they employed do not work? no, it doesn't, they used the same methods to conquer other similar central asian republics in the past. it DID work. that's not to say how many times the same methods have been used to great effect by others.FEOS wrote:
Your "logic" is astounding.
I guess Vietnam wasn't a failure for the US because it wasn't against the Vietnamese alone, then. Right. Makes perfect sense.
Failure is failure. The Soviets failed in Afghanistan. It was a counterinsurgency that they tried to fight by using overwhelming force. And they failed. Hence, a failed counterinsurgency using the strategy and tactics you say didn't fail.
it absolutely does matter. as i said, chechen wars wouldn't have been possible in stalin's time. at all.FEOS wrote:
Chechen Wars. Doesn't matter whether the USSR existed or not.
you don't know much about chechen wars, do you? "same military", pfffft.FEOS wrote:
It was the same military strategy executed by the same military against insurgents. And it failed. Again.
they were. and i said so myself on numerous occasions. does that prove that methods used by soviets (and coutless others, including the free, the brave and the enlightened) do not work? absolutely not and there's a tonne of evidence supporting this - the whole bloody history of human civilization is one enormous piece of evidence.FEOS wrote:
Yet you say those three gems weren't failures.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.