pancake bunnyjord wrote:
Its a bit ironic because someone said it to you, you're saying it to me, and ill see it to pace. Its generic, technology evolves and the life of humans will keep getting easier and easier until people can work from their beds and do whatever they want. Its tedious.11 Bravo wrote:
whats wrong with that? things change. back in my day we didnt have the internet. thats a fact.jord wrote:
His point still stands. I hope I don't carry it on though, "back in my day" ugh.
To be honest joining for the career, pay and benefits the military has is a lot better reason than some skewed, misguided sense of post 9/11 patriotism. People who join to get out of a criminal life and change can make the best soldiers.Trotskygrad wrote:
pssh, my point was that the consensus was that too many people are joining the armed forces because they think it looks cool and for the pay, and that these people have a skewed view of what war is actually like (due to Games, TV, whatever).
Point is that these people probably will have less respect (s3v3n mentioned that they saw it as a big joke) for their DIs and the formalities in the Corps, and probably are less prepared for the realities of combat, so they will probably crack easier.
there's a lot of assumptions being made here, correct me if I'm wrong
Last edited by jord (2010-08-28 16:09:51)
Its a pointless never ending phrase. How's that?11 Bravo wrote:
pancake bunnyjord wrote:
Its a bit ironic because someone said it to you, you're saying it to me, and ill see it to pace. Its generic, technology evolves and the life of humans will keep getting easier and easier until people can work from their beds and do whatever they want. Its tedious.11 Bravo wrote:
whats wrong with that? things change. back in my day we didnt have the internet. thats a fact.
well...JohnG@lt wrote:
I fail to see how it is any different from previous generations that grew up on Howdie Doodie and John Wayne movies. I'd say kids are MORE prepared now than they were in the past, especially with the ridiculously graphic movies that have come out over the past twenty years. Just really dumb generalizations throughout the second half of this thread.Trotskygrad wrote:
pssh, my point was that the consensus was that too many people are joining the armed forces because they think it looks cool and for the pay, and that these people have a skewed view of what war is actually like (due to Games, TV, whatever).
Point is that these people probably will have less respect (s3v3n mentioned that they saw it as a big joke) for their DIs and the formalities in the Corps, and probably are less prepared for the realities of combat, so they will probably crack easier.
there's a lot of assumptions being made here, correct me if I'm wrong
I can make a point regarding that.
part my point is that they think the casualties in war are a lot more "faceless" and inhuman. When someone dies in a game's SP, you never REALLY care. In the movies, they try pretty damn hard to MAKE you care.
The only thing that might be true is kids these days are in worse shape physically then other generations, but that is a decline in everyone's health, including older generations. Why'd they let themselves go, and pass on bad traits to their kids, hmmm?
lolJohnG@lt wrote:
[Edit - Ahh, so you're a child of the 70s. That awkward in between stage between full blown hippiehood and the weird 80s. Do you miss your tye-dye, bell bottoms and pompadour?
Last edited by Phrozenbot (2010-08-28 16:11:38)
I think it's more a stratification.Phrozenbot wrote:
The only thing that might be true is kids these days are in worse shape physically then other generations, but that is a decline in everyone's health, including older generations. Why'd they let themselves go, and pass on bad traits to their kids, hmmm?
there's the really fit kids (people seem to care a LOT more about working out now, correct me if I'm wrong)
and the rest of the unfit kids. Unfit makes up the majority and brings down the average.
Isn't that a good thing? Sucks having your buddy die next to you but if you dehumanize the process it allows you to Charlie Mike. My gripe with the entertainment industry is that they try to attach such ridiculous standards to peoples behavior in combat that people feel there must be something wrong with them, that they must be suffering from PTSD if they don't react the exact same way that Hollywood actors do when they take a life on film. Real life isn't shooting someone and then taking an hour to sort through your grief over harming some poor soul with a wife, six kids and a mortgage payment. If anything has made people soft, it isn't video games, it's the goddamn movie industry and their faux intellectual psychology bullshit.Trotskygrad wrote:
well...JohnG@lt wrote:
I fail to see how it is any different from previous generations that grew up on Howdie Doodie and John Wayne movies. I'd say kids are MORE prepared now than they were in the past, especially with the ridiculously graphic movies that have come out over the past twenty years. Just really dumb generalizations throughout the second half of this thread.Trotskygrad wrote:
pssh, my point was that the consensus was that too many people are joining the armed forces because they think it looks cool and for the pay, and that these people have a skewed view of what war is actually like (due to Games, TV, whatever).
Point is that these people probably will have less respect (s3v3n mentioned that they saw it as a big joke) for their DIs and the formalities in the Corps, and probably are less prepared for the realities of combat, so they will probably crack easier.
there's a lot of assumptions being made here, correct me if I'm wrong
I can make a point regarding that.
part my point is that they think the casualties in war are a lot more "faceless" and inhuman. When someone dies in a game's SP, you never REALLY care. In the movies, they try pretty damn hard to MAKE you care.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
rdx-fx wrote:
Nothing to do with my generation versus their generation again.
I really don't give a shit how much you wish I was making this a "In my day, we walked uphill both ways in the snow" thing. I am not.
and yet again (that's three times now, for those playing at home);JohnG@lt wrote:
It's not my fault that you're an old retard glorifying his own childhood while putting down the generation in front of him. It's old hat. Your parents denigrated your generation, said they were soft because they didn't have to live through the Depression, you proved them right by rebelling, fucking up the country, incurring massive debt that you're passing onto my generation and my kids generation, and whining about how your taxes are too high. Am I hitting the mark here? People call my generation the 'selfish generation' and all I can do is
1) Fuck off and learn to read. Instead of skimming and assuming, try reading and comprehension. Jackass.
I reiterate;
"I really don't give a shit how much you wish I was making this a "In my day, we walked uphill both ways in the snow" thing. I am not."
There is a disingenious debating technique called the "Straw Man". Whether by intentional trolling, or unintentional assumptions, you've done exactly that.
And your rolling off on a tangent misattributing my generation (Gen X) with the excessess, greed, debauchery, lazyness, and overall spoiled brat nature of the Boomer generation is yet another (wait for it) misguided assumption. The Boomers, more than anyone, have pissed away all that their parents (The Greatest Generation, or the WW-II generation) gave them, and sold off all that they were supposed to pass on to their children. But that has nothing to do with the current thread.
Now, I don't know what generation you are part of, nor do I care.
Your contribution to this thread seems to consist solely of pissing and moaning about (mis)perceived slights to your generation's fragile ego, derailment by Straw Man, and false assumptions about things you read but failed to comprehend.
crap yeah, I was making an argument regarding how video games are affecting policy makers or whatever. But the way I was thinking about it is that games make people not realize how easy it is to actually die in a war, thus providing a further shock to people who are entering combat. (whether the DIs' lectures on this topic are of any effect is anyone's guess)JohnG@lt wrote:
Isn't that a good thing? Sucks having your buddy die next to you but if you dehumanize the process it allows you to Charlie Mike. My gripe with the entertainment industry is that they try to attach such ridiculous standards to peoples behavior in combat that people feel there must be something wrong with them, that they must be suffering from PTSD if they don't react the exact same way that Hollywood actors do when they take a life on film. Real life isn't shooting someone and then taking an hour to sort through your grief over harming some poor soul with a wife, six kids and a mortgage payment. If anything has made people soft, it isn't video games, it's the goddamn movie industry and their faux intellectual psychology bullshit.Trotskygrad wrote:
well...JohnG@lt wrote:
I fail to see how it is any different from previous generations that grew up on Howdie Doodie and John Wayne movies. I'd say kids are MORE prepared now than they were in the past, especially with the ridiculously graphic movies that have come out over the past twenty years. Just really dumb generalizations throughout the second half of this thread.
I can make a point regarding that.
part my point is that they think the casualties in war are a lot more "faceless" and inhuman. When someone dies in a game's SP, you never REALLY care. In the movies, they try pretty damn hard to MAKE you care.
blah so
point #2 is that video games that are the most popular (MW2, cough, cough) don't emphasize teamwork in combat, and it makes it a harder job for DIs to train this skill (But that's irrelevant to the main point, so...)
I'm lost, what was the actual point then.
the actual point is whether video games have any effect on the ability of the current generation to contract PTSD.Phrozenbot wrote:
I'm lost, what was the actual point then.
Yar.
Not all kids learn team work solely from video games. Maybe a few do, and sadly for them, it isn't just an issue in the military, it's a life skill they lack and will be apparent everywhere they go. People learn eventually though, and if they don't then they simply won't hack it.Trotskygrad wrote:
point #2 is that video games that are the most popular (MW2, cough, cough) don't emphasize teamwork in combat, and it makes it a harder job for DIs to train this skill (But that's irrelevant to the main point, so...)
Trotskygrad wrote:
part my point is that they think the casualties in war are a lot more "faceless" and inhuman. When someone dies in a game's SP, you never REALLY care. In the movies, they try pretty damn hard to MAKE you care.
Don't know that dehumanizing is the best solution. Stuff it in a corner for the moment, do what you need to do for the moment, then deal with it when you have the time and space to do so. Don't have to be Hollywood waterworks, just have to get your head 'straight' sooner than later. Don't deal with it when you're awake, you'll see it again when you're asleep...JohnG@lt wrote:
Isn't that a good thing? Sucks having your buddy die next to you but if you dehumanize the process it allows you to Charlie Mike. My gripe with the entertainment industry is that they try to attach such ridiculous standards to peoples behavior in combat that people feel there must be something wrong with them, that they must be suffering from PTSD if they don't react the exact same way that Hollywood actors do when they take a life on film. Real life isn't shooting someone and then taking an hour to sort through your grief over harming some poor soul with a wife, six kids and a mortgage payment. If anything has made people soft, it isn't video games, it's the goddamn movie industry and their faux intellectual psychology bullshit.
(And, Galt, I'm agreeing with your general point, while disagreeing with an ancillary detail of it.)
Reposted from above;
Note: "Mo-Tard" : concatenation of "Motivational" and "retard". Used to describe bullshit hollow motovational PR crap, that's generally long on chest pounding, yet short on meaningful content. See Also - recruiting commercials.RDX-fX wrote:
There are, in my opinion, a few key traits needed for a healthy soldier (or medical civilians)
- In an emergency, "Do what needs to be done right now. Twitch, cry, grieve, drink, shake, smoke later." Don't forget the later
- Think about what you may have to do long before you do it. After you pull the trigger, and you can't take it back, is not the time to be asking "God, what have I done?". Mo-tard hoorah brainwashing may get someone to pull a trigger - but it won't keep their head on straight if they have no real perspective.
- Need to be rational, well grounded, stable personalities. Kind of people that adversity just "rolls off their backs, like water off a duck". Not the psychotic sociopaths that have no perception of morality or ethics.
- Need to be capable of dialing up the violence when needed, and the self-control to stick within orders or ROE. Well trained guard dog Rottweilers, not slobbering crazy pit dogs.
- Perspective. Always keep perspective. If you can't get perspective on something, keep working on it. Some shit doesn't have a Why, and has to be filed under It Just Is. Don't have to like it, but have to accept it to keep your sanity.The whole "grant me the serenity to accept the things I can't change, courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference" mantra.
Last edited by rdx-fx (2010-08-28 16:42:15)
not that, it just makes it seem like teamwork is not that important a skill in combat, so people who are intensely anti-social (ragers in MW2 anyone?) might actually consider joining the military (Even though they probably will not get through, it's still more shit to process)Phrozenbot wrote:
Not all kids learn team work solely from video games. Maybe a few do, and sadly for them, it isn't just an issue in the military, it's a life skill they lack and will be apparent everywhere they go. People learn eventually though, and if they don't then they simply won't hack it.Trotskygrad wrote:
point #2 is that video games that are the most popular (MW2, cough, cough) don't emphasize teamwork in combat, and it makes it a harder job for DIs to train this skill (But that's irrelevant to the main point, so...)
Whatever dude, I just called you out on your gross generalizations. You were calling kids today soft. I don't really see how they're any softer than I was. Fatter, yes, less inclined to go outside and breathe fresh air, yes, but that's all fixed in basic training anyway. BCT has always had a fat camp for those that couldn't handle the physical fitness. Nothing has changed.rdx-fx wrote:
rdx-fx wrote:
Nothing to do with my generation versus their generation again.
I really don't give a shit how much you wish I was making this a "In my day, we walked uphill both ways in the snow" thing. I am not.and yet again (that's three times now, for those playing at home);JohnG@lt wrote:
It's not my fault that you're an old retard glorifying his own childhood while putting down the generation in front of him. It's old hat. Your parents denigrated your generation, said they were soft because they didn't have to live through the Depression, you proved them right by rebelling, fucking up the country, incurring massive debt that you're passing onto my generation and my kids generation, and whining about how your taxes are too high. Am I hitting the mark here? People call my generation the 'selfish generation' and all I can do is
1) Fuck off and learn to read. Instead of skimming and assuming, try reading and comprehension. Jackass.
I reiterate;
"I really don't give a shit how much you wish I was making this a "In my day, we walked uphill both ways in the snow" thing. I am not."
There is a disingenious debating technique called the "Straw Man". Whether by intentional trolling, or unintentional assumptions, you've done exactly that.
And your rolling off on a tangent misattributing my generation (Gen X) with the excessess, greed, debauchery, lazyness, and overall spoiled brat nature of the Boomer generation is yet another (wait for it) misguided assumption. The Boomers, more than anyone, have pissed away all that their parents (The Greatest Generation, or the WW-II generation) gave them, and sold off all that they were supposed to pass on to their children. But that has nothing to do with the current thread.
Now, I don't know what generation you are part of, nor do I care.
Your contribution to this thread seems to consist solely of pissing and moaning about (mis)perceived slights to your generation's fragile ego, derailment by Straw Man, and false assumptions about things you read but failed to comprehend.
And frankly, I have no idea what generation I belong to. I was born in 1981 and I'm some weird in between age between Gen X, the Pepsi Generation, and whatever else is after it. Gen Y I suppose. Fuck, who cares? The entire point is that kids today really aren't much different from those in the past and yes, you can make a giant long winded list about their supposed faults but the same could be said for any generation. You're the one that started this shit, and you're the one that started the personal attacks, so seriously, go fuck yourself and eat a fucking dick.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
@Trot
You're not supposed to take videos games like that seriously. Anyone who does is bound to have conflicts between their perception of what the military is really like and reality.
You're not supposed to take videos games like that seriously. Anyone who does is bound to have conflicts between their perception of what the military is really like and reality.
Last edited by Phrozenbot (2010-08-28 16:48:23)
There's a million other ways that teamwork is learned though... whether it's group projects in class, playing for a sports team, or even getting assigned to a team in gym class. Kids that end up joining the military aren't usually the fat loners who sat against the wall in gym class.Trotskygrad wrote:
crap yeah, I was making an argument regarding how video games are affecting policy makers or whatever. But the way I was thinking about it is that games make people not realize how easy it is to actually die in a war, thus providing a further shock to people who are entering combat. (whether the DIs' lectures on this topic are of any effect is anyone's guess)JohnG@lt wrote:
Isn't that a good thing? Sucks having your buddy die next to you but if you dehumanize the process it allows you to Charlie Mike. My gripe with the entertainment industry is that they try to attach such ridiculous standards to peoples behavior in combat that people feel there must be something wrong with them, that they must be suffering from PTSD if they don't react the exact same way that Hollywood actors do when they take a life on film. Real life isn't shooting someone and then taking an hour to sort through your grief over harming some poor soul with a wife, six kids and a mortgage payment. If anything has made people soft, it isn't video games, it's the goddamn movie industry and their faux intellectual psychology bullshit.Trotskygrad wrote:
well...
I can make a point regarding that.
part my point is that they think the casualties in war are a lot more "faceless" and inhuman. When someone dies in a game's SP, you never REALLY care. In the movies, they try pretty damn hard to MAKE you care.
blah so
point #2 is that video games that are the most popular (MW2, cough, cough) don't emphasize teamwork in combat, and it makes it a harder job for DIs to train this skill (But that's irrelevant to the main point, so...)
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
I don't, it's just that a lot of people I know do (and it REALLY creeps me out)Phrozenbot wrote:
@Trot
You're not supposed to take videos games like that seriously. Anyone who does is bound to have conflicts between their perception of what the military is really like and reality.
That wouldn't extend to just the military. Basement dwellers in general have a difficult time coping with any form of reality.Phrozenbot wrote:
@Trot
You're not supposed to take videos games like that seriously. Anyone who does is bound to have conflicts between their perception of what the military is really like and reality.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
again, that's semi-irrelevantJohnG@lt wrote:
There's a million other ways that teamwork is learned though... whether it's group projects in class, playing for a sports team, or even getting assigned to a team in gym class. Kids that end up joining the military aren't usually the fat loners who sat against the wall in gym class.Trotskygrad wrote:
crap yeah, I was making an argument regarding how video games are affecting policy makers or whatever. But the way I was thinking about it is that games make people not realize how easy it is to actually die in a war, thus providing a further shock to people who are entering combat. (whether the DIs' lectures on this topic are of any effect is anyone's guess)JohnG@lt wrote:
Isn't that a good thing? Sucks having your buddy die next to you but if you dehumanize the process it allows you to Charlie Mike. My gripe with the entertainment industry is that they try to attach such ridiculous standards to peoples behavior in combat that people feel there must be something wrong with them, that they must be suffering from PTSD if they don't react the exact same way that Hollywood actors do when they take a life on film. Real life isn't shooting someone and then taking an hour to sort through your grief over harming some poor soul with a wife, six kids and a mortgage payment. If anything has made people soft, it isn't video games, it's the goddamn movie industry and their faux intellectual psychology bullshit.
blah so
point #2 is that video games that are the most popular (MW2, cough, cough) don't emphasize teamwork in combat, and it makes it a harder job for DIs to train this skill (But that's irrelevant to the main point, so...)
yes, I know there are other ways that teamwork is learned. I didn't learn teamwork from games.
Point is, some people dislike having to work with other people, but they seem to like playing MW2, so they think that warfare is not a team activity. Or one that involves a lot of cooperation. So they decide to join the military, or they think about it.
They call it tactical realism. Anyways, they'll learn some way or another, hopefully.Trotskygrad wrote:
I don't, it's just that a lot of people I know do (and it REALLY creeps me out)Phrozenbot wrote:
@Trot
You're not supposed to take videos games like that seriously. Anyone who does is bound to have conflicts between their perception of what the military is really like and reality.
touche!JohnG@lt wrote:
That wouldn't extend to just the military. Basement dwellers in general have a difficult time coping with any form of reality.
Last edited by Phrozenbot (2010-08-28 16:56:07)
I don't think the games are a cause. More of an indicator, perhaps.Trotskygrad wrote:
point #2 is that video games that are the most popular (MW2, cough, cough) don't emphasize teamwork in combat, and it makes it a harder job for DIs to train this skill (But that's irrelevant to the main point, so...)
Soloist people tend towards games where being a soloist is rewarded (MW2).
Teamwork oriented people tend towards games where teamwork is rewarded (IL-2, ArmA, Silent Hunter, Civilization)
And these people that have problems adapting to the structured environment of the military, that's also not a generational issue.
More to the point, it's an issue with the blatantly bullshit PR lines being thrown at an already cynical population.
Look at the recruiting commercials - a pile of mo-tard bullshit propaganda that even Michael Bay would look at and ask "oh, WTF?! who'd belive that shit?!"
Now, you're going to ask people to truly believe in an institution that presents itself like that?
Then you run into their already cynical nature, which disregards as propaganda any effort to "sell" them on the values of duty, sacrifice, country, patriotism. And if they aren't laughing after that, then when you try to convince them that there are more important things than themselves, and that the world will keep on spinning long after they're gone... that will have them doubled over in fits of laughter.
lolrdx-fx wrote:
I don't think the games are a cause. More of an indicator, perhaps.Trotskygrad wrote:
point #2 is that video games that are the most popular (MW2, cough, cough) don't emphasize teamwork in combat, and it makes it a harder job for DIs to train this skill (But that's irrelevant to the main point, so...)
Soloist people tend towards games where being a soloist is rewarded (MW2).
Teamwork oriented people tend towards games where teamwork is rewarded (IL-2, ArmA, Silent Hunter, Civilization)
And these people that have problems adapting to the structured environment of the military, that's also not a generational issue.
More to the point, it's an issue with the blatantly bullshit PR lines being thrown at an already cynical population.
Look at the recruiting commercials - a pile of mo-tard bullshit propaganda that even Michael Bay would look at and ask "oh, WTF?! who'd belive that shit?!"
Now, you're going to ask people to truly believe in an institution that presents itself like that?
Then you run into their already cynical nature, which disregards as propaganda any effort to "sell" them on the values of duty, sacrifice, country, patriotism. And if they aren't laughing after that, then when you try to convince them that there are more important things than themselves, and that the world will keep on spinning long after they're gone... that will have them doubled over in fits of laughter.
the recruitment campaigns of ALL branches of the military have problems
except perhaps the Coast Guard, cause they're looking for lifers.
I don't see why that's an issue at all though. It's supposed to be the recruiters job to weed them out, and if they get by the recruiter, the drill sergeants will damn well chase them out. Out of any basic training class, a good 1/4 or so will quit, be kicked out, or find some other way to get out like faking asthma. My BCT platoon had half of a squad do the fake asthma thingTrotskygrad wrote:
again, that's semi-irrelevantJohnG@lt wrote:
There's a million other ways that teamwork is learned though... whether it's group projects in class, playing for a sports team, or even getting assigned to a team in gym class. Kids that end up joining the military aren't usually the fat loners who sat against the wall in gym class.Trotskygrad wrote:
crap yeah, I was making an argument regarding how video games are affecting policy makers or whatever. But the way I was thinking about it is that games make people not realize how easy it is to actually die in a war, thus providing a further shock to people who are entering combat. (whether the DIs' lectures on this topic are of any effect is anyone's guess)
blah so
point #2 is that video games that are the most popular (MW2, cough, cough) don't emphasize teamwork in combat, and it makes it a harder job for DIs to train this skill (But that's irrelevant to the main point, so...)
yes, I know there are other ways that teamwork is learned. I didn't learn teamwork from games.
Point is, some people dislike having to work with other people, but they seem to like playing MW2, so they think that warfare is not a team activity. Or one that involves a lot of cooperation. So they decide to join the military, or they think about it.
You want to know the most effective way drill sergeants teach teamwork? I fucking hated it too. Mass punishment. One person fucks up, everyone does pushups and runs laps. Nothing is an individual thing. For the first six weeks of basic I swear to god I spent a good four hours a day on my face doing pushups because someone else fucked up. If shit like that doesn't teach the kid that 'we're all in this together and completely dependent on each other' nothing will.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
Surely you have teamwork tests in selection?
And surely it gets drilled in at basic.
And surely it gets drilled in at basic.