The Wounded Platoon.

2010-08-26 10:28:20

#1

Uzique: dasein.; +2,865|6755

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/woundedplatoon/

Since the Iraq War began, 17 US soldiers based at Fort Carson, Colorado, have been charged or convicted in 14 murders, manslaughters and attempted murders. Many of these crimes involved men who had served in the same battalion in Iraq, and three of them came from a single platoon.

The Wounded Platoon tells the dark tale of the modern-day 'Band of Brothers', and how the war followed them home. It is a story of heroism, grief, combat, drugs, alcohol and brutal murder, and a shocking portrait of what multiple tours and post-traumatic stress are doing to a generation of American soldiers.

so, after watching this documentary recently i have got thinking and want to ask a question of you ex-veterans, in particular:

do you think you could kill again? do you think you have an increased propensity for violence or behaviour termed 'illegal' in civilian society, which is otherwise allowed by the laws and conduct of the military lifestyle? if it isn't too personal-- what do you think of yourself, psychologically, post-war? this is a topic that i find very interesting, and im glad that modern-day understandings in psychology have allowed us to better understand ailments related to war. i also find it very interesting how the civilian law and in particular judicial decisions go about dealing with soldiers who, to all effect, have been doctored and conditioned to find killing 'easier'.

_{libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual}. _{http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/}

2010-08-26 17:19:55

#2

13rin: Member; +977|6764

I didn't ignore this, I just couldn't add anything to it. I read the guys bios... War's fuck up beyond my imagination.

I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.

2010-08-26 17:52:12

#3

Uzique: dasein.; +2,865|6755

yah i understand the thread is limited in 'scope'.

perhaps i could extend it:

what do you think about ex-soldiers being sentenced by civilian courts and tried as 'reasonable' innocent citizens? bearing in mind they are all coping with psychological trauma of some sort; PTSD for most of them, severe clinical depression for others, and all on a concoction of anti-depressants, sleeping medication and illicit drugs. im not sure it's 'fair', but i understand the need to preserve judicial equality. there just seems to be something wrong about sending off a young man on behalf of the state's military, to then psychologically traumatize him and throw him in jail for life when he comes home and continues behaving in a 'troubled' manner. it seems like a harsh neglection.

_{libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual}. _{http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/}

2010-08-26 17:55:40

#4

eleven bravo: Member; +1,399|5544|foggy bottom

reminds me a lot of the incident I had with the sheriffs dept and how the court tried to fuck me over.

Tu Stultus Es

2010-08-26 18:14:55

#5

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,816|6391|eXtreme to the maX

all on a concoction of anti-depressants, sleeping medication and illicit drugs

Thats well beyond a stretch, a fraction of them maybe, I only saw two in the top row.
You're projecting there.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2010-08-26 18:22:58)

Fuck Israel

2010-08-26 18:19:23

#6

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5643|London, England

What's the expression you brits use? Bunch of sodding whingers.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2010-08-26 19:26:53

#7

Uzique: dasein.; +2,865|6755

JohnG@lt wrote:
What's the expression you brits use? Bunch of sodding whingers.

apparently that particular regiment saw the height of the action in baghdad; they were exposed to 'more than normal' amounts of battle.

almost all of them were on sleeping medication that had 'dangerous' side-effects, and half were on anti-psychotics (PTSD, paranoia) or anti-depressants. that's no exaggeration. im not talking about every single soldier that is deployed into the theatre of war-- im talking about the unit(s) in question in the documentary. they were exposed to 'x' conditions and they ended up with 'y' problems. hence the civilian crimes and harsh sentencing.

_{libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual}. _{http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/}

2010-08-26 19:35:38

#8

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5643|London, England

Uzique wrote:
JohnG@lt wrote:
What's the expression you brits use? Bunch of sodding whingers.
apparently that particular regiment saw the height of the action in baghdad; they were exposed to 'more than normal' amounts of battle.

almost all of them were on sleeping medication that had 'dangerous' side-effects, and half were on anti-psychotics (PTSD, paranoia) or anti-depressants. that's no exaggeration. im not talking about every single soldier that is deployed into the theatre of war-- im talking about the unit(s) in question in the documentary. they were exposed to 'x' conditions and they ended up with 'y' problems. hence the civilian crimes and harsh sentencing.

Right. And? Millions of soldiers served in the World Wars, thousands more served in Vietnam. Aside from the Vietnam vets that got hooked on drugs while overseas, the rest put their head down, didn't whine, and got on with their lives. The bs PTSD diagnosis just opened the floodgates for vets to do a bunch of stupid shit, get hooked on drugs etc with a built-in excuse. Life sucks, it's hard a lot of the time, and we don't need Freudians concocting bullshit excuses for people to grasp onto.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2010-08-26 19:39:02

#9

Uzique: dasein.; +2,865|6755

so you really think modern advancements in psychology just provide an excuse? an excuse for what, exactly? most of the guys that offended after their military service got maximum sentences and are behind bars for the rest of their life; they're not getting away with any major legal defenses or being committed to psychiatric hospitals for 'treatment'. they're just being treated as what they are: people that have turned to drugs or crime out of a bad traumatic experience. not exactly let off the hook for anything.

i don't have an opinion, because i know hardly anything about it.

although, i must say, that i do think the increased awareness of PTSD and so on just comes from better medical/psychological advances and steps-forward in classification and diagnosis. there were vague notions of 'shell shock' and 'trauma' in the great war, although the term 'trauma' was used in its original greek-context and was very open ended. diagnosis and treatment has just got more advanced as the century has passed on. i dont think it's particularly to do with soldiers nowadays being "whinging pussies".

_{libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual}. _{http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/}

2010-08-26 19:46:36

#10

eleven bravo: Member; +1,399|5544|foggy bottom

some people should never have been in combat.

Tu Stultus Es

2010-08-26 19:47:53

#11

Cybargs: Moderated; +2,285|7001

I remember Se7en writing about something like this... Need to find the post =/

https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png

2010-08-26 19:48:59

#12

Uzique: dasein.; +2,865|6755

yeah one of the troops that murdered another soldier and stabbed a woman back in america had a criminal record...

not a small one, either. he killed a childhood friend when he was a teenager. really messed up.

but the documentary shows the commanders/people-in-charge saying that when the political demand for troops goes up, they have to satisfy that demand from the recruit-pool that they have. thus, people with prior offences and people with ongoing legal proceedings get sent out on deployment and have everything postponed/waived. just a practicality of war, i guess.

_{libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual}. _{http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/}

2010-08-26 19:49:43

#13

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5643|London, England

Uzique wrote:
so you really think modern advancements in psychology just provide an excuse? an excuse for what, exactly? most of the guys that offended after their military service got maximum sentences and are behind bars for the rest of their life; they're not getting away with any major legal defenses or being committed to psychiatric hospitals for 'treatment'. they're just being treated as what they are: people that have turned to drugs or crime out of a bad traumatic experience. not exactly let off the hook for anything.

i don't have an opinion, because i know hardly anything about it.

although, i must say, that i do think the increased awareness of PTSD and so on just comes from better medical/psychological advances and steps-forward in classification and diagnosis. there were vague notions of 'shell shock' and 'trauma' in the great war, although the term 'trauma' was used in its original greek-context and was very open ended. diagnosis and treatment has just got more advanced as the century has passed on. i dont think it's particularly to do with soldiers nowadays being "whinging pussies".

The increased awareness of PTSD is a manifestation of modern society where psychologists try to classify everything and everyone while fitting them into neat categories. It's gotten to the point that every single person on the planet could 'credibly' be diagnosed with some form of personality disorder. Whether it's trauma they suffered as a child, or something they saw in Iraq or Afghanistan, everyone has baggage. The fact that the 'symptoms' of PTSD are so wide ranging, it's essentially a catch-all diagnosis. "I can't adjust to life, I have PTSD" No, you just got used to living in a world where every second of your day was scheduled out for you. I will of course admit that there are real cases out there, as you said, shell shock and battle fatigue were prevalent, but not widespread back in those wars. Maybe it's a lack of pride today, or over-zealous medical officers treating everyone with the same broad brush, but I guarantee there are many more claimants than there are actual people with the disorder.

Heck, I got screened four times for PTSD before my contract was up. Once when leaving Iraq, once when outprocessing from active duty, once when I went to a VA hospital and the last time when I went in for a medical checkup a few months before my contract expired.

Lastly, all medical conditions of veterans are vastly overblown. I'd say a good half of the people that serve end up on disability of some sort. Many of these are simply claiming injuries that are hard to prove because they know it's a free monthly paycheck for life. Fraudulent disability claims are rampant so the numbers are skewed.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2010-08-26 19:51:03

#14

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5643|London, England

Uzique wrote:
yeah one of the troops that murdered another soldier and stabbed a woman back in america had a criminal record...

not a small one, either. he killed a childhood friend when he was a teenager. really messed up.

but the documentary shows the commanders/people-in-charge saying that when the political demand for troops goes up, they have to satisfy that demand from the recruit-pool that they have. thus, people with prior offences and people with ongoing legal proceedings get sent out on deployment and have everything postponed/waived. just a practicality of war, i guess.

There is a waiting list over a year long to join the military right now. They aren't just picking scum up off the street, they're so overloaded that they're being highly selective.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2010-08-26 19:55:13

#15

Uzique: dasein.; +2,865|6755

JohnG@lt wrote:
Uzique wrote:
yeah one of the troops that murdered another soldier and stabbed a woman back in america had a criminal record...

not a small one, either. he killed a childhood friend when he was a teenager. really messed up.

but the documentary shows the commanders/people-in-charge saying that when the political demand for troops goes up, they have to satisfy that demand from the recruit-pool that they have. thus, people with prior offences and people with ongoing legal proceedings get sent out on deployment and have everything postponed/waived. just a practicality of war, i guess.
There is a waiting list over a year long to join the military right now. They aren't just picking scum up off the street, they're so overloaded that they're being highly selective.

im just quoting examples verbatim from the documentary. as i said, it was during the height of the iraq campaign- and during the later "surge" operation where they flooded troops/resources into a determined iraqi effort. the documentary explicitly says that the reserves and recruit pools were low at the time post fall-of-baghdad and so they waived a bunch of 'ineligibles' to get them deployed quickly.

_{libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual}. _{http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/}

2010-08-26 19:57:57

#16

eleven bravo: Member; +1,399|5544|foggy bottom

Uzique wrote:
yeah one of the troops that murdered another soldier and stabbed a woman back in america had a criminal record...

not a small one, either. he killed a childhood friend when he was a teenager. really messed up.

but the documentary shows the commanders/people-in-charge saying that when the political demand for troops goes up, they have to satisfy that demand from the recruit-pool that they have. thus, people with prior offences and people with ongoing legal proceedings get sent out on deployment and have everything postponed/waived. just a practicality of war, i guess.

I dont necessarily mean criminal record. some people in my unit were fucked up in the head before we ever deployed.

Tu Stultus Es

2010-08-26 19:58:45

#17

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5643|London, England

eleven bravo wrote:
Uzique wrote:
yeah one of the troops that murdered another soldier and stabbed a woman back in america had a criminal record...

not a small one, either. he killed a childhood friend when he was a teenager. really messed up.

but the documentary shows the commanders/people-in-charge saying that when the political demand for troops goes up, they have to satisfy that demand from the recruit-pool that they have. thus, people with prior offences and people with ongoing legal proceedings get sent out on deployment and have everything postponed/waived. just a practicality of war, i guess.
I dont necessarily mean criminal record. some people in my unit were fucked up in the head before we ever deployed.

Some? Half my unit probably qualified as legally insane

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2010-08-26 20:06:49

#18

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,816|6391|eXtreme to the maX

Life is hard, anyone who believes different is headed for a mental disorder.

Fuck Israel

2010-08-26 20:07:00

#19

13rin: Member; +977|6764

My Friend gave me an Afghanistan coin.

I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.

2010-08-26 20:07:20

#20

eleven bravo: Member; +1,399|5544|foggy bottom

we had guys freeze up and had to be taken out of the line. I had a friend freak out when he at home on r&r and got sent to the top floor of darnell. had another buddy who killed some civilians accidentally and ended up going nuts after that and getting medically discharged. just a couple I could remember right now.

Tu Stultus Es

2010-08-26 20:09:09

#21

Uzique: dasein.; +2,865|6755

interesting anecdotes... thanks for sharing

_{libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual}. _{http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/}

2010-08-26 20:09:12

#22

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,816|6391|eXtreme to the maX

I worked with a bloke who was put in the crows nest of a ship in the Falklands and told to shoot down Skyhawks with an SLR.
He was a bit of a mess.

Fuck Israel

2010-08-26 20:11:24

#23

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5643|London, England

eleven bravo wrote:
we had guys freeze up and had to be taken out of the line. I had a friend freak out when he at home on r&r and got sent to the top floor of darnell. had another buddy who killed some civilians accidentally and ended up going nuts after that and getting medically discharged. just a couple I could remember right now.

We had one guy that got drunk on firewater (he was an indian) and decided to do a drive by on Camp Victory. He shot up a bunch of trailers and hit a Colonel in the ass. Then he drove the HMMWV into a concrete barrier and totaled it. Last I heard he was in a jail cell in Kuwait facing attempted murder charges.

My company used to send people to the top floor at Darnell pretty regularly. There were 4-5 people that were constantly in and out of there.

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-08-26 20:14:17)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2010-08-26 20:21:33

#24

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5643|London, England

Drug use was pretty rampant as well. They used to give us piss tests right before everyone went on leave for Christmas, two years before we deployed 15 people pissed hot for coke and then the following year 11 pissed hot for weed and/or E. Then of course there were the multitude of alcoholics as well.

So Uzique, as you can see, most of these people coming home with 'PTSD' had issues long before they deployed. Their deployments just compounded them, especially when they came home, because then they had access to all the toys they had been deprived of for the past year.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2010-08-26 20:22:41

#25

eleven bravo: Member; +1,399|5544|foggy bottom

JohnG@lt wrote:
Drug use was pretty rampant as well. They used to give us piss tests right before everyone went on leave for Christmas, two years before we deployed 15 people pissed hot for coke and then the following year 11 pissed hot for weed and/or E. Then of course there were the multitude of alcoholics as well.

thats pretty typical

how big was your company

Last edited by eleven bravo (2010-08-26 20:23:10)

Tu Stultus Es

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JohnG@lt wrote:

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