Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7095|Nårvei

A tiny spin-off from the Milton Friedman thread ...

Seeing as one of the most important economic principles says don't spend more than you earn I thought it to be a good debate as to where that line goes ... what do you need to borrow money to finance and what do you save up money to buy?

Varegg wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:

Varegg wrote:

don't spend more than you earn is a good economic principle and it applies to both personal and government economy ...
how would you buy a house or car?
Possibly the only two exceptions ...
^^And even those two imo must be financed with care ...

How big a house do you need or to twist it around how much money can you afford to borrow ... do you plan ahead saving money to buy a new fridge, washing machine, TV, stereo etc etc or do you just use the credit card when the time comes?

Consumer Credit: The Next Crisis
article from Harvard Business Review - 2009

A furniture company offers 0% financing and no payments for a year. Consumers gladly take this free credit. Sales skyrocket. Buoyed by rising revenues, the company takes out a loan and opens a second store, expecting to pay its employees, its suppliers, and its bank with future revenues.

Unfortunately, this isn’t the only financing the company’s current and potential customers are using. Rather than pay off their credit card bills every month, more and more people are leaving balances, and those balances are growing larger. People are taking out 72-month loans to finance their new cars. They’re just starting to make payments on the home appliances they bought 12 months ago with those other buy-now-pay-later deals. They’re tapping into home-equity lines of credit to go on vacation.

As more and more of their disposable income is going to pay off their debts, new purchasing slows abruptly. Some people start defaulting on their cards altogether, turning past purchases into present bad debt.

Sales slow dramatically at the furniture store, and it closes the second store, laying off workers. This has an impact not just on the retailer but also on its suppliers and its financers, some of whom don’t survive. Other companies that do business with those unfortunate suppliers and former employees find their operations affected as well.

Scale up this scenario even a little bit, and it starts to be clear that the degree to which consumers have come to depend on easy, inexpensive credit is a far bigger threat to the economy than most people realize. Few companies are immune to the risks. Consumers are using record levels of debt to purchase goods and services, leaving the corporations selling to them greatly exposed, sometimes fatally.

But thankfully, this corporation killer can be diagnosed, analyzed, and managed. Analysis of simple ratios can help you identify the warning signs of consumer leverage exposure (CLE) and take action to forestall much of the crippling impact it could have on your company. Managers who ignore the warning signs and leave their companies vulnerable will have only themselves to blame.

What Is Consumer Leverage Exposure?
Just as a finance manager would measure corporate leverage as a ratio of debt to income, we measure consumer leverage as the ratio of total household debt to total personal disposable income. Specifically, it’s a measure of how much money American consumers have tied up in credit card debt, mortgages, home-equity loans, auto loans, and education loans compared with their ability to pay off this debt. As the exhibit “Consumers’ Mounting Debt” shows, the ratio stands at 1.30, slightly off record highs of 1.33 in the first quarter of 2008.


And for the record this is not an attack on US consumers, it's more an open question to the forum members ...

Is there really something like free credit?
How do you interpret the term free credit?
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
Jenspm
penis
+1,716|7017|St. Andrews / Oslo

I paid for BF2 on an 18-month down payment
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/26774/flickricon.png https://twitter.com/phoenix/favicon.ico
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6755
A creditor is worse than a slave-owner; for the master owns only your person, but a creditor owns your dignity, and can command it.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5643|London, England

Uzique wrote:

A creditor is worse than a slave-owner; for the master owns only your person, but a creditor owns your dignity, and can command it.
So don't borrow money? Rather simple concept, and one that won't lead to pogroms and holocausts...
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
cpt.fass1
The Cap'n Can Make it Hap'n
+329|6981|NJ

JohnG@lt wrote:

Uzique wrote:

A creditor is worse than a slave-owner; for the master owns only your person, but a creditor owns your dignity, and can command it.
So don't borrow money? Rather simple concept, and one that won't lead to pogroms and holocausts...
We have a credit system that you have to borrow money. You like to own or rent a place right? Have a job right? All of these are based on credit.  If you don't have any debt you can't prove your trust.
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|7001

cpt.fass1 wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Uzique wrote:

A creditor is worse than a slave-owner; for the master owns only your person, but a creditor owns your dignity, and can command it.
So don't borrow money? Rather simple concept, and one that won't lead to pogroms and holocausts...
We have a credit system that you have to borrow money. You like to own or rent a place right? Have a job right? All of these are based on credit.  If you don't have any debt you can't prove your trust.
Be responsible with your debt lolz?
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5643|London, England

cpt.fass1 wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Uzique wrote:

A creditor is worse than a slave-owner; for the master owns only your person, but a creditor owns your dignity, and can command it.
So don't borrow money? Rather simple concept, and one that won't lead to pogroms and holocausts...
We have a credit system that you have to borrow money. You like to own or rent a place right? Have a job right? All of these are based on credit.  If you don't have any debt you can't prove your trust.
I got a lease without any problems and I don't own any credit cards (though I have in the past). You don't need credit in order to make a purchase.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
cpt.fass1
The Cap'n Can Make it Hap'n
+329|6981|NJ
Well a car lease is different it's an asset, one that they will reclaim with failure to pay. Also if you do fail to pay they will reclaim it and stick you with the difference.

But you had credit cards, which means you've established credit and they're probably still open.

At cybargs, being responsible with your credit is very important but there are other factors out there. You could literally be responsible for a good portion of  your life, but then end up losing a job, taking a pay cut or just not having any work. That's what is in play now, so many responsible people out there just don't have the money they used to, to be able to pay the bills(raise in gas prices, food cost, ext..). So what's the first to go out the window when it's eat or pay a bill?

Then that can fuck up your future jobs and any ability to get future credit.

Last edited by cpt.fass1 (2010-08-23 08:55:23)

SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6415|North Tonawanda, NY

JohnG@lt wrote:

cpt.fass1 wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

So don't borrow money? Rather simple concept, and one that won't lead to pogroms and holocausts...
We have a credit system that you have to borrow money. You like to own or rent a place right? Have a job right? All of these are based on credit.  If you don't have any debt you can't prove your trust.
I got a lease without any problems and I don't own any credit cards (though I have in the past). You don't need credit in order to make a purchase.
Yep.  It depends on where you are living--when I lived in a large apartment complex, I was credit checked for a lease.  Where I live now, I rent from a couple that owns a few properties and there was no credit check.  Also, there was no credit check for my job, though I have heard of that before.  Of course...my job sucks, so I don't see why a credit check would be needed.

Last edited by SenorToenails (2010-08-23 08:56:24)

Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5643|London, England

cpt.fass1 wrote:

Well a car lease is different it's an asset, one that they will reclaim with failure to pay. Also if you do fail to pay they will reclaim it and stick you with the difference.

But you had credit cards, which means you've established credit and they're probably still open.

At cybargs, being responsible with your credit is very important but there are other factors out there. You could literally be responsible for a good portion of  your life, but then end up losing a job, taking a pay cut or just not having any work. That's what is in play now, so many responsible people out there just don't have the money they used to, to be able to pay the bills(raise in gas prices, food cost, ext..). So what's the first to go out the window when it's eat or pay a bill?

Then that can fuck up your future jobs and any ability to get future credit.
Should've planned for the future better, stayed further within their means, and avoided credit cards at all costs, even if it meant a decrease in the lifestyle they were used to. People get caught up in trying to hold onto whatever social status they've attained. If they consider themselves to be middle class they sure as shit aren't going to sell their nice car for a beater, even though that is the reality of where they now sit on the social ladder.

I don't plan on ever spending more than 50% of my income simply because saving for the future and making cash purchases, rather than enriching a financier, is important to me. Purchasing anything on credit just means you are paying significantly more for the item in exchange for convenience. I'm patient.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
cpt.fass1
The Cap'n Can Make it Hap'n
+329|6981|NJ
Yes John, it's really so perfectly planed. Are you saving up for your divorce costs, or are you counting on both you and your girlfriends money for life?
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|6966|Disaster Free Zone
Buy everything I possibly can on credit. Saves me money.

Don't pay any interest though, except the home loan.
cpt.fass1
The Cap'n Can Make it Hap'n
+329|6981|NJ
How does it save you money?
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7095|Nårvei

DrunkFace wrote:

Buy everything I possibly can on credit. Saves me money.

Don't pay any interest though, except the home loan.
There is always interest on credit, why don't you pay interest?
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6415|North Tonawanda, NY
If you buy on a credit card to get rewards or cashback and then pay it off during the grace period, you don't pay interest and you actually get something out of it.
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7095|Nårvei

SenorToenails wrote:

If you buy on a credit card to get rewards or cashback and then pay it off during the grace period, you don't pay interest and you actually get something out of it.


Sounds like a sweet deal if you are able to plan ahead, sounds like a fucking nightmare if you loose control ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6415|North Tonawanda, NY

Varegg wrote:

SenorToenails wrote:

If you buy on a credit card to get rewards or cashback and then pay it off during the grace period, you don't pay interest and you actually get something out of it.


Sounds like a sweet deal if you are able to plan ahead, sounds like a fucking nightmare if you loose control ...
Yes, that is the risk.  I think I made like $50 -100 one year by charging crap I needed anyway, and then paying it off during the grace period.  I don't do that anymore because I don't like having a CC for anything but emergencies.

Last edited by SenorToenails (2010-08-23 10:06:31)

Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7095|Nårvei

SenorToenails wrote:

Varegg wrote:

SenorToenails wrote:

If you buy on a credit card to get rewards or cashback and then pay it off during the grace period, you don't pay interest and you actually get something out of it.


Sounds like a sweet deal if you are able to plan ahead, sounds like a fucking nightmare if you loose control ...
Yes, that is the risk.  I think I made like $50 -100 one year by charging crap I needed anyway, and then paying it off during the grace period.  I don't do that anymore because I don't like having a CC for anything but emergencies.
Guess they wouldn't offer such a deal if most people had control, that's for sure ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
cpt.fass1
The Cap'n Can Make it Hap'n
+329|6981|NJ
That's the truth, I've had good credit for the majority of my life. The bubbles have popped for me and various other reason I'm in the settling market right now. I had it under control but when I took the paycut of 65k down to 24k(unemployment) it was almost next to impossible for me to keep up. I did however but didn't really hit the principle, then the unemployment and savings ran out and I could only find a job making 12 an hour..

Still barely made the bills, but I've been working my way back up after getting into an other field. So yeah it's hard and shit does happen. We're also not talking about a crazy amount of debt, it was around 12,000k.
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|6966|Disaster Free Zone

Varegg wrote:

DrunkFace wrote:

Buy everything I possibly can on credit. Saves me money.

Don't pay any interest though, except the home loan.
There is always interest on credit, why don't you pay interest?
Toenails has hinted on what I do.

Firstly, all my wages go directly into my home loan, which offsets interest as its calculated daily but charged monthly. I also have a redraw facility (basically like an overdraft) on the home loan so I can withdraw money when I need it.
For all my purchases I use credit cards with interest free periods of 60-90 days. So while my cash is saving me interest on my home loan I'm using the banks money to live off. Then just before a credit card bill is due, I withdraw the money from my home loan and pay it off. In effect I am saving about 6% by using credit cards over buying stuff in cash. Then there are all the bonuses and flybys and free shit on top of that.
Phrozenbot
Member
+632|6900|do not disturb

No there is no such thing as free credit. Free credit would suggest you have a right to credit, or in other words, someone elses money to spend for your own needs. It is a service to provide you with money to purchase something in the future that you would otherwise have to save to obtain. It shouldn't be unlimited and it shouldn't be free. Central banks that artificially lower interest rates just encourage everyone to over extend themselves.

I don't have a credit card, only a debit card and it's mainly for online transactions. I pay in full when I get my bill. Other than that, I always pay in cash. I don't feel sorry for people who have to default for trying to live much more expensive lives then they ought to. Sometimes having more is less, and having less is more.
cpt.fass1
The Cap'n Can Make it Hap'n
+329|6981|NJ
Ahh I got ya, I actually have two Excell spreadsheets that will help  you out with it. Also I paid to work for this company.

http://www.wealthbuilderlive.com/presentation

But if you're interested in the spreadsheets, PM me. If you want to pay 1,995 on the webthing I'll just send you the spreadsheets.
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5522|Cleveland, Ohio

Varegg wrote:

SenorToenails wrote:

Varegg wrote:




Sounds like a sweet deal if you are able to plan ahead, sounds like a fucking nightmare if you loose control ...
Yes, that is the risk.  I think I made like $50 -100 one year by charging crap I needed anyway, and then paying it off during the grace period.  I don't do that anymore because I don't like having a CC for anything but emergencies.
Guess they wouldn't offer such a deal if most people had control, that's for sure ...
everyone has that offer but most people cant pay it off...
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7095|Nårvei

11 Bravo wrote:

Varegg wrote:

SenorToenails wrote:


Yes, that is the risk.  I think I made like $50 -100 one year by charging crap I needed anyway, and then paying it off during the grace period.  I don't do that anymore because I don't like having a CC for anything but emergencies.
Guess they wouldn't offer such a deal if most people had control, that's for sure ...
everyone has that offer but most people cant pay it off...
Yeah ... sounds like a honey-trap or whatever it's called in English ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|6966|Disaster Free Zone

Varegg wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:

Varegg wrote:


Guess they wouldn't offer such a deal if most people had control, that's for sure ...
everyone has that offer but most people cant pay it off...
Yeah ... sounds like a honey-trap or whatever it's called in English ...
It can be, and it's definitely what the banks are betting on. But there are rewards for those who have control and can manage their money.

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