But with Justice, why are protecting the weaker of the two? Didn't the stronger already make the punishment?
Ask him... M3THOD! No more lurking! WHERE ARE YOU???? Turq demands answers!Turquoise wrote:
Well, a lot of people (Christians included) would sympathize with killing their wife/husband if she/he cheated on them.DBBrinson1 wrote:
Hmmm... Not for a Muslim, which M3th happens to be...Turquoise wrote:
Well, I think that's going a bit far....
I think that has less to do with religion and more to do with emotions. Granted, I can totally understand how angry someone can get in that situation.
If Missus cheated on me? Divorce, custody battle, protect/defend assets (sell everything to brother/best friend for a dollar)... I'd be crushed, but would like to believe I'd be able to move forward with my life.
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
I think you're confusing Justice with tyranny.cpt.fass1 wrote:
But with Justice, why are protecting the weaker of the two? Didn't the stronger already make the punishment?
True... I think a lot of people would do the right thing and move on. However, there are numerous cases across the world where someone finds their wife or husband in bed with someone else and kills them right there. In other cases, they premeditatedly do it.DBBrinson1 wrote:
Ask him... M3THOD! No more lurking! WHERE ARE YOU???? Turq demands answers!Turquoise wrote:
Well, a lot of people (Christians included) would sympathize with killing their wife/husband if she/he cheated on them.DBBrinson1 wrote:
Hmmm... Not for a Muslim, which M3th happens to be...
I think that has less to do with religion and more to do with emotions. Granted, I can totally understand how angry someone can get in that situation.
If Missus cheated on me? Divorce, custody battle, protect/defend assets (sell everything to brother/best friend for a dollar)... I'd be crushed, but would like to believe I'd be able to move forward with my life.
Again, I think that's more of a universal human nature issue than a religious one. I'm sure even some atheists have done this.
But why? It's really doesn't say what happened very clearly. Just that one man was paralyzed and the other is going to be. It's not tyranny without knowing what lead up to the assult, I don't know about you but I've never looked at someone and just hit them with a cleaver before.Turquoise wrote:
I think you're confusing Justice with tyranny.cpt.fass1 wrote:
But with Justice, why are protecting the weaker of the two? Didn't the stronger already make the punishment?
Crime of passion is better than murder 1 (if you're the jilted hubby).
Edit: I'd really love to hear M3thod's answer though.
Edit: I'd really love to hear M3thod's answer though.
Last edited by DBBrinson1 (2010-08-20 14:55:35)
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
Well, I'll agree with you in one respect. We don't know the circumstances or the motivation for the cleaver attack.cpt.fass1 wrote:
But why? It's really doesn't say what happened very clearly. Just that one man was paralyzed and the other is going to be. It's not tyranny without knowing what lead up to the assult, I don't know about you but I've never looked at someone and just hit them with a cleaver before.Turquoise wrote:
I think you're confusing Justice with tyranny.cpt.fass1 wrote:
But with Justice, why are protecting the weaker of the two? Didn't the stronger already make the punishment?
However, it is neither logical to assume that the man with the cleaver attacked unprovoked nor was defending himself until we know more about the circumstances.
The posts I've made so far were with the understanding that the conviction itself was an indication that the man with the cleaver was in the wrong. However, if the conviction was not a fair one with a fair trial, then he could very well have been just defending himself.
In other words, you may be right that the man was in the right actually, but your reasoning is incorrect, because might doesn't make right -- at least not in this context. You could argue might makes right during wartime, but that's an entirely different discussion.
Last edited by Turquoise (2010-08-20 15:03:01)
I understand wanting justice. I do. But this really isn't justice.
A flogging is whatever. Permanent damage to the guy for something he really didn't intend to do is fucked up.
The victim should be ashamed of himself.
A flogging is whatever. Permanent damage to the guy for something he really didn't intend to do is fucked up.
The victim should be ashamed of himself.
Well I'm sure the trial wasn't fair, I'm sure it was a pretty bad circumstance. But to be the devils advocate to all the "punishment in good" people, I raise a very valid point. Even if it was tried in a court of law, they're getting two sides of a story but not what actually happened. To punish by what the victim wants is morally wrong and a part of most problems in all societies. An even better punishment would have to be to make the attacker have to make up for the victims loss of legs.
Well moral of the story is You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Asia" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line"!
Well moral of the story is You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Asia" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line"!
Last edited by cpt.fass1 (2010-08-20 15:30:11)
A true justice system, and not one based on organized vengeance would be one where doing the right thing would be rewarded. Our current system predates republican ideals and the idea that a man is not born into slavery to whatever powers that be. No, because we have the right to life and liberty by default, these in themselves are not a just reward for living a life free of crime. What we have now is binary with the baseline being nothingness. You're either guilty or innocent and receive nothing for your innocence that you weren't already granted at birth.Bertster7 wrote:
No it isn't.JohnG@lt wrote:
Then what is justice? Is it not a reaction to a negative action taken by another?Bertster7 wrote:
No it isn't.
It's about fairness, impartiality and harmony. Read some Plato - that explains it far better than I could ever hope to.In many ways I agree with this. Modern justice systems are less about justice and more about having a deterent in place to reduce crime. Not just a system of organised vengeance. They are a tool of the state, not something for the victim.JohnG@lt wrote:
The Western system of 'justice' is entirely a misnomer. I don't remember the last time a judge patted someone on the back and told them how wonderful of a human being they were and handed them a reward. See, in a true justice system, the good would be rewarded and the bad would be punished.
So, unless the coin flips both ways, with innocence and crime being rewarded in similar manner, what we have is a system of justice in name only.
Let's dream up a different kind of system. If, upon your 18th birthday, you were rewarded $1 per day that you stay out of trouble (including even parking tickets, seat belt tickets etc.), so at the end of the year you get a check for $365. Year two comes around and you get $2 per day for staying out of trouble, or $730. Essentially, you would get rewarded for good behavior throughout your life and I believe it would, even though it is nothing more than a token, do far more towards keeping people honest than a system of harsh punishment ever will. I call it a token because even if you lived until you were 118 years old, you'd still receive only $36,500 for that year. In comparison, how much do we spend to keep someone in prison on a life sentence? Imagine this as a 'perfect attendance award'.
Oh, and before anyone bitches about taxation etc, the money would come from the fines levied on people breaking the law. Besides, even if it was taxation, you're getting your own money back anyway.
Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-08-20 15:46:40)
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
what was the intentions of a person with a meat cleaver?Poseidon wrote:
I understand wanting justice. I do. But this really isn't justice.
A flogging is whatever. Permanent damage to the guy for something he really didn't intend to do is fucked up.
The victim should be ashamed of himself.
There's the obvious flaw that the majority of crimes go unnoticed and organised criminals will still be getting the money.JohnG@lt wrote:
A true justice system, and not one based on organized vengeance would be one where doing the right thing would be rewarded. Our current system predates republican ideals and the idea that a man is not born into slavery to whatever powers that be. No, because we have the right to life and liberty by default, these in themselves are not a just reward for living a life free of crime. What we have now is binary with the baseline being nothingness. You're either guilty or innocent and receive nothing for your innocence that you weren't already granted at birth.Bertster7 wrote:
No it isn't.JohnG@lt wrote:
Then what is justice? Is it not a reaction to a negative action taken by another?
It's about fairness, impartiality and harmony. Read some Plato - that explains it far better than I could ever hope to.In many ways I agree with this. Modern justice systems are less about justice and more about having a deterent in place to reduce crime. Not just a system of organised vengeance. They are a tool of the state, not something for the victim.JohnG@lt wrote:
The Western system of 'justice' is entirely a misnomer. I don't remember the last time a judge patted someone on the back and told them how wonderful of a human being they were and handed them a reward. See, in a true justice system, the good would be rewarded and the bad would be punished.
So, unless the coin flips both ways, with innocence and crime being rewarded in similar manner, what we have is a system of justice in name only.
Let's dream up a different kind of system. If, upon your 18th birthday, you were rewarded $1 per day that you stay out of trouble (including even parking tickets, seat belt tickets etc.), so at the end of the year you get a check for $365. Year two comes around and you get $2 per day for staying out of trouble, or $730. Essentially, you would get rewarded for good behavior throughout your life and I believe it would, even though it is nothing more than a token, do far more towards keeping people honest than a system of harsh punishment ever will. I call it a token because even if you lived until you were 118 years old, you'd still receive only $36,500 for that year. In comparison, how much do we spend to keep someone in prison on a life sentence? Imagine this as a 'perfect attendance award'.
Oh, and before anyone bitches about taxation etc, the money would come from the fines levied on people breaking the law. Besides, even if it was taxation, you're getting your own money back anyway.
A better punishment would be to force the offender to undertake - and complete - a medical degree, specialising in paralysis recovery, along with a lengthy post-graduate sentence consisting of community service in areas which the offender is highly skilled. Such as paralysis recovery.
Last edited by Pubic (2010-08-21 04:43:28)
Once they do get caught, assuming it's not just a speeding ticket or something similar, you would backdate it based on the investigation. Besides, people who are members of organized crime tend to get picked up repeatedly throughout their lives anyway.jord wrote:
There's the obvious flaw that the majority of crimes go unnoticed and organised criminals will still be getting the money.JohnG@lt wrote:
A true justice system, and not one based on organized vengeance would be one where doing the right thing would be rewarded. Our current system predates republican ideals and the idea that a man is not born into slavery to whatever powers that be. No, because we have the right to life and liberty by default, these in themselves are not a just reward for living a life free of crime. What we have now is binary with the baseline being nothingness. You're either guilty or innocent and receive nothing for your innocence that you weren't already granted at birth.Bertster7 wrote:
No it isn't.JohnG@lt wrote:
Then what is justice? Is it not a reaction to a negative action taken by another?
It's about fairness, impartiality and harmony. Read some Plato - that explains it far better than I could ever hope to.
In many ways I agree with this. Modern justice systems are less about justice and more about having a deterent in place to reduce crime. Not just a system of organised vengeance. They are a tool of the state, not something for the victim.
So, unless the coin flips both ways, with innocence and crime being rewarded in similar manner, what we have is a system of justice in name only.
Let's dream up a different kind of system. If, upon your 18th birthday, you were rewarded $1 per day that you stay out of trouble (including even parking tickets, seat belt tickets etc.), so at the end of the year you get a check for $365. Year two comes around and you get $2 per day for staying out of trouble, or $730. Essentially, you would get rewarded for good behavior throughout your life and I believe it would, even though it is nothing more than a token, do far more towards keeping people honest than a system of harsh punishment ever will. I call it a token because even if you lived until you were 118 years old, you'd still receive only $36,500 for that year. In comparison, how much do we spend to keep someone in prison on a life sentence? Imagine this as a 'perfect attendance award'.
Oh, and before anyone bitches about taxation etc, the money would come from the fines levied on people breaking the law. Besides, even if it was taxation, you're getting your own money back anyway.
Regardless, this was just a rough idea to sketch out what a true system of justice, rather than a system of vengeance, would look like.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
Its barbaric, screw Saudi Arabia - they're as bad as Iran.
Re the discussion on crime, detection and enforcement needs to be jacked up across the board.
Re the discussion on crime, detection and enforcement needs to be jacked up across the board.
Last edited by Dilbert_X (2010-08-21 06:23:26)
Fuck Israel
Thailand has best laws and it works
Death penalty and long prison sentances for recreational drug users and a police force that regularly abuses their power and are overwelmingly corrupt..Sup wrote:
Thailand has best laws and it works
I'll pass.
he was trying to give him a hug!11 Bravo wrote:
what was the intentions of a person with a meat cleaver?Poseidon wrote:
I understand wanting justice. I do. But this really isn't justice.
A flogging is whatever. Permanent damage to the guy for something he really didn't intend to do is fucked up.
The victim should be ashamed of himself.
ooooooo..... well ok then. lolkrazed wrote:
he was trying to give him a hug!11 Bravo wrote:
what was the intentions of a person with a meat cleaver?Poseidon wrote:
I understand wanting justice. I do. But this really isn't justice.
A flogging is whatever. Permanent damage to the guy for something he really didn't intend to do is fucked up.
The victim should be ashamed of himself.
go there and see for yourself. Leave your car or house unlocked and nothing will get stolenjord wrote:
Death penalty and long prison sentances for recreational drug users and a police force that regularly abuses their power and are overwelmingly corrupt..Sup wrote:
Thailand has best laws and it works
I'll pass.
Have you been to Thailand? Is that where you've been all this time?.Sup wrote:
go there and see for yourself. Leave your car or house unlocked and nothing will get stolenjord wrote:
Death penalty and long prison sentances for recreational drug users and a police force that regularly abuses their power and are overwelmingly corrupt..Sup wrote:
Thailand has best laws and it works
I'll pass.
I wouldn't want to risk 10 years getting raped by a guy called nik nak in prison because some corrupt cop tried to bribe an easy target tourist with drug possesion..Sup wrote:
go there and see for yourself. Leave your car or house unlocked and nothing will get stolenjord wrote:
Death penalty and long prison sentances for recreational drug users and a police force that regularly abuses their power and are overwelmingly corrupt..Sup wrote:
Thailand has best laws and it works
I'll pass.
you can do that in like 60% of america also. thats really not an indicator tbh..Sup wrote:
go there and see for yourself. Leave your car or house unlocked and nothing will get stolenjord wrote:
Death penalty and long prison sentances for recreational drug users and a police force that regularly abuses their power and are overwelmingly corrupt..Sup wrote:
Thailand has best laws and it works
I'll pass.
It's just a pointless risk anyway.11 Bravo wrote:
you can do that in like 60% of america also. thats really not an indicator tbh..Sup wrote:
go there and see for yourself. Leave your car or house unlocked and nothing will get stolenjord wrote:
Death penalty and long prison sentances for recreational drug users and a police force that regularly abuses their power and are overwelmingly corrupt.
I'll pass.
Hey look at me flaunting how safe my area is! OH WAIT SHIT MY CAR.
Takes 5 seconds to lock a door.
Last edited by jord (2010-08-21 12:39:33)
Oh, yes, Saudi Arabian laws are just wonderful... As long as you're a Arab Muslim male adult of Saudi Arabian citizenship.
Otherwise, if officer Abu Ali Babba so much as looks at you, you're screwed.
If an Arab Muslim adult male steals from you, or assaults you, or claims you've done either to him - you're screwed.
In short, your status is somewhere between that of a Jew in 1943 Germany, and a Negro in 1913 America.
Don't go there alone.
Otherwise, if officer Abu Ali Babba so much as looks at you, you're screwed.
If an Arab Muslim adult male steals from you, or assaults you, or claims you've done either to him - you're screwed.
In short, your status is somewhere between that of a Jew in 1943 Germany, and a Negro in 1913 America.
Don't go there alone.