BF2S Forums The fruits of Equal Opportunity

Pug wrote:

lowing wrote:

Pug wrote:

Ummm, no, I've explained he isn't getting a free pass from me already.

Now that we are making head way here, let us wipe the slate clean and pick up fresh.



We agree MLK's accomplishments was that of a protester, and a leader. Is his character relevant to these accomplishments or not.?

Have you been sniffing glue?

I've already said yes.

To be perfectly clear.....is his character relevant to his (already agreed upon accomplishment) leadership? 

yes or no?

Pug wrote:

yes, like i've already said.

the issue has always been about a difference in opinion on the result of "yes"

Ok well then if his character is relevant to his leadership and the the only thing he is known for is his leadership, and we agree his leadership was steeped in lies.............Whatelse is left for MLK?

ummmm....what he accomplished when he was a leader is left over, no?

lowing wrote:

SenorToenails wrote:

lowing wrote:

SO what are you tell me? He was a good leader because he was skillful enough to keep his hypocrisy from the public eye?

No, what I'm saying is that as everyone perceived him at the time he was a great leader, and his personal issues never showed through to taint that.  It does not excuse him, and I did not said it did.  If he had crashed and burned while he was alive, I'm sure his image would be very different.  One could say that it is unfortunate that he never had to face his crimes in the court of public opinion...but then, he was assassinated.

I made this argument early on and it was rejected by Pug....Image and character are 2 different things. His image wasa lie, his character is what is relevant.

His perceived image at the time led to the good works he did.  You keep saying that his character issues completely overpower anything else he's ever done, and Pug and I have been disagreeing with you on that.

Pug wrote:

ummmm....what he accomplished when he was a leader is left over, no?

Circles again? Was he a good leader?

SenorToenails wrote:

lowing wrote:

So, you maintain that he was a good leader because he was skillful enough to hide his betrayals......I do not think that is the mark of a good leader. Do you? really?

That's not what I said, nor was it implied.

lowing wrote:

What I am saying is the TRUTH of the matter is, MLK was a fraud. Whatever good he did was done under false pretences and would have destroyed him if it had been found out while he was alive..Regardess of not being exposed, this does not make him a good leader.

MLK did what he did, and that's what everyone has to judge him on.  Apparently, most people think his good deeds outweigh the bad ones.

lowing wrote:

In other words if not for his "percieved image" he would not have accomlished shit.

We'll never know, will we?  History didn't play out that way so all anyone can do is guess...and it would be pure fiction.

Then hoew is you maintain he was good leader if not because he didn't get caught in his lies?

We went over this, he was a protester and a leader, what good deeds did he accomplish?

Is it really that hard to conclude, based on every other public figure that has been busted?

lowing wrote:

SenorToenails wrote:

lowing wrote:

So, you maintain that he was a good leader because he was skillful enough to hide his betrayals......I do not think that is the mark of a good leader. Do you? really?

That's not what I said, nor was it implied.

lowing wrote:

What I am saying is the TRUTH of the matter is, MLK was a fraud. Whatever good he did was done under false pretences and would have destroyed him if it had been found out while he was alive..Regardess of not being exposed, this does not make him a good leader.

MLK did what he did, and that's what everyone has to judge him on.  Apparently, most people think his good deeds outweigh the bad ones.

lowing wrote:

In other words if not for his "percieved image" he would not have accomlished shit.

We'll never know, will we?  History didn't play out that way so all anyone can do is guess...and it would be pure fiction.

Then hoew is you maintain he was good leader if not because he didn't get caught in his lies?

We went over this, he was a protester and a leader, what good deeds did he accomplish?

Is it really that hard to conclude, based on every other public figure that has been busted?

The result of his leadership was good.

The use of non-violence and civil disobedience as a method to obtain equal rights.

Apparently it's not as simple as you seem to think it is.

lowing wrote:

the result would have been the same since he was killed and the civil rights movement went forward just fine without him. Not conjecture..FACT

Palin does the same thing, where is her kudos? remember? She is not accomplished in your eyes.

Yer right it isn't that simple, who else has been excused from their immoral behavior because of their deceit?

But lowing, you don't know that it would have moved along like it did if he hadn't been there filling his role.

She's accomplished--just not as much as MLK.  When her impact on American life reaches a level anywhere near MLK's, then she'll get a kudos from me.

Who said anything about excused?  His good works overpower his negative qualities.

Pug wrote:

lowing wrote:

Pug wrote:

ummmm....what he accomplished when he was a leader is left over, no?

Circles again? Was he a good leader?

Yes.

And?

Ok so you do not need integrity, a sound moral compass, honesty or a sense of fairness to be a good leader, all you need to be is a good liar....Ok case closed.

Last edited by lowing (2010-08-05 16:36:14)

Pug wrote:

lowing wrote:

Pug wrote:

Yes.

And?

Ok so you do not need integrity, a sound moral compass, honesty or a sense of fairness to be a good leader, all you need to be is a good liar....Ok case closed.

Really?  I had no idea it was that simple.

Tell me exactly what you proved

Nothing, you win, MLK is a good leader who possesses no leadership qualities. I understand. He accomplished nothing honestly and fairly but that is ok because everyone PERCEIVED him as doing so...What a great guy!!! Was there anything else. Oh yeah Palin is a piece of shit, have no idea why she has not been shown to be a cheater or a liar or a thief, but MLK was a better leader and person than she is. Now, was there anything else?

Pug wrote:

Oh, so that's what you proved in your mind.

Like I said up front, we never disagreed on the issues, just the results.

So in other words, his work is for naught in your eyes because you believe sleeping around dominates everything else in someone's life.

His work which amounts to speeches, was a lie first stolen by others, second because he did not practice what he preached. His credibilty as a leader is shot because of the very issues we agree upon. His character is that of a piece of shit, for those same reasons,  his image is a lie although it is that of a savior. MLK's legacy is a lie and a fraud, just like the man.

Pug wrote:

And like I said before, you are in the minority in that you believe MLK didn't do anything notable because of sleeping around.

Never said he did nothing notable, I said what he did accomplish was done so through lies, theft, dishonesty and a lack of integrity.

I wonder howe many honorary degrees he woud have recieved if the truth were known that he was an academic cheat?

I wonder how many God fearing Christian followers he would have through his speeches of honesty integrity, morality and fairness, if it were known he routinely cheated on his wife and kids. Everything he REALLY was would have washed away anything he SAID he stood for if the truth was known. MLK was a joke, it just so happens no one got it at the time.

I also do not believe his de-throning at the time would affect the civil rights movement. America was changing, its attitude was changing before MLK, and nothing MLK was going to do, good or bad, was going to affect the eventual outcome, unless you really believe without MLK we would still be drinking out of "whites only" water fountains. I seriously doubt it my self.

Last edited by lowing (2010-08-07 12:10:20)