Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5643|London, England
There once was a king named Christopher who liked to live the good life. Times were good and he decided to throw a celebration that would last for three full days. Now, there had been reports over the years that a rival king was planning an assault upon Christophers domains but the people reporting these negative tidings were generally ignored and labeled fear mongers. Christopher decided that the sentries, scouts and guards that he had in place on the day of the feast would give enough warning of any attack so he decided to throw the party anyway.

The day of the feast soon arrived. He invited all of his best men, his greatest warriors, and his most renowned councilors to feast with him. The food was plentiful and the spirits abundant. Everyone was having a good time.

On the third day of the feast, everyone was still partying with only a few signs that the revelers were finally getting ready to crash. A man named Gregorius who worked for one of the minor lords seated at the kings table decided that the party couldn't last forever and he decided to start placing bets on which of the kings men would pass out drunk first. He had a knack for picking the correct person and proceeded to make a not insignificant, but not great either, sum of money.

Well, throughout the party people had been slipping outside and passing food and drink to the sentries, guards and scouts as well. Eventually everyone associated with the party was lured into a deep contented sleep. They'd gorged themselves famously. This is when the rival king struck. He came in, killed many of the kings best warriors, stole the most beautiful women and robbed the revelers, even of the clothes off their backs, they were left with nothing.

The king was incensed! Not only could he not figure out how such a tragedy could occur, but he was forced to take money out of his own treasury to pay for the sudden poverty unleashed on his people! This made him angry. Now, he knew in his heart that he was the cause of the fiasco but he could never admit it publicly or his own men might leave him. He had to find a scapegoat.

So the witch hunt began to find answers and the inquiry finally came around to Gregorius. They blamed him for betting against the partiers and thus, indirectly, against the king himself. How dare he make money in a time when everyone else was poverty stricken! The king seized his meager winnings to offset the cost laid out by his own treasury.

The king felt good about himself, he'd found a scapegoat. Now he began planning his next party...

THE END
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,816|6391|eXtreme to the maX
The US economy is a bit of a rollercoaster TBH.

To be more apt:

The king gave all the drunk sleepy guards a big fat loan, to be repaid some time before they next got drunk.
The little guys who lost their homes and businesses - they got nothing except more taxes to pay the sleepy guards their bonuses.

The Kings father, who was responsible for telling the populace they should party every day and worry about tomorrow when it came, retired to his ranch. A statue of him riding his horse towards a windmill was erected to commemorate his warrior skills, next to the statue of his father riding his horse towards a windmill.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2010-08-03 07:03:19)

Fuck Israel
jord
Member
+2,382|6963|The North, beyond the wall.
I see what you did,thar.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5643|London, England
Now, I wrote that out because I read a pretty disturbing story in the WSJ today. If anyone has read The Big Short you'll remember Greg Lippmann as one of the primary characters that bet against the housing bubble and made his clients rich in the process. Well, he was one trader that worked for Deutschebank among many but he was one of the few that actually saw the crash happening before anyone else. So, the rest of his company was 'long' on the housing market, meaning they were still buying mortgage backed securities, while he was on the other end 'shorting' them. i.e. betting against them.

The Federal Government is still looking for scapegoats for the housing crisis. They went after Goldman Sachs already but they want more blood. So now they're going after one of the guys that had the balls to bet against the bubble because, obviously, he's the reason the bubble collapsed. How dare he spread bad vibes! The underlying foundation was so strong! It was going to last forever!

Here's the article:

Federal probes of the collapsed mortgage-bond boom are shedding light on how Wall Street firms sometimes created securities and sold them to one set of investors, while advising others to bet against them.

One firm that was a major player in mortgage securities, Deutsche Bank AG, illustrates a pattern investigators are looking at. While creating and selling mortgage securities to some of its clients, the big German bank was not only advising other clients to bet the other way, but also sometimes doing so itself.

A Deutsche trader helped create an index that made it easy to bet against housing, and the bank itself then used the index to do just that.

After the collapse of mortgage securities led to a costly bailout of the firm that insured many such securities—American International Group Inc.—some of the federal cash that was sunk into AIG flowed to Deutsche, to cover bearish bets by its hedge-fund clients.

Deutsche's actions are a vivid example of potential conflicts on Wall Street—the way big financial firms play both sides of the fence with investors. The issue became more extreme during the mortgage bubble and subsequent bust because of the size of the bets on Wall Street and subsequent losses on Main Street.

Regulators now are grappling with whether the business-as-usual conduct at financial firms merely looks bad in hindsight, or whether there were misrepresentations or other legal issues that need to be further investigated and guarded against in the future. "This is a gray area that we need more investigation into," says Andrew Lo, a finance professor at Massachusetts Institute of Technology and a hedge-fund manager.

Deutsche says that helping investors bet either way—either for or against an asset—is part of doing business for a securities firm.

"Some clients sought more exposure to the housing market, while others sought less," a spokesman for Deutsche said. "We served clients whatever their investment objective, but only after being satisfied that they had arrived at their view after thorough consideration."

As for betting against housing with its own money, Deutsche, while acknowledging having made tens of millions of dollars doing that, says that overall, it "maintained a net long position in the housing market and ultimately suffered billions in losses, even after factoring in our hedges and offsetting positions."

Deutsche is just one of a number of financial firms whose roles in the mortgage boom and bust are being examined by the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, the Justice Department or the Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission set up by Congress.

In mid-July, the SEC reached a $550 million settlement with Goldman Sachs Group Inc. of civil charges that Goldman misled investors in a mortgage security, failing to tell them a bearish hedge fund had helped design the security and was betting against it. Citigroup Inc. last week agreed to pay $75 million to settle SEC charges of understating its subprime exposure in reports to investors.

Deutsche says it has been cooperating with a variety of mortgage-related inquiries but hasn't been told it is a target of any investigations. Deutsche recently settled charges by an industry self-regulatory group, the Financial Industry Regulatory Authority, that it misrepresented delinquency data in issuing subprime securities. In agreeing to a $7.5 million penalty, the bank neither admitted nor denied the charges.

Deutsche's disparate dealings with two investor clients in February 2007 illustrate how it played both sides of the mortgage-securities market.

That month, a time when the U.S. housing and mortgage markets were beginning to crack, Deutsche was helping put together bond deals backed by subprime mortgages.

They included loans originated by NovaStar Financial Inc., a Missouri subprime lender that Deutsche had financed. A promotional flier from NovaStar in 2003 said, "Ignore the Rules and Qualify More Borrowers with our Credit Score Override Program!" As housing boomed, NovaStar thrived.

But on Feb. 20, 2007, NovaStar reported a quarterly loss and said it was tightening the spigot on new loans. It was another piece of evidence the long-rising housing market was headed the other way. That evening, a senior Deutsche trader received an email from a hedge-fund manager with the subject line "Novastar" and the message: "It is like the plague."

The Deutsche trader, Greg Lippmann, encouraged the email writer to bet against subprime bonds, telling him "you should get some [courage] and do some shorts," because "these bonds are going much much lower....."

Deutsche, however, continued to market new mortgage-bond deals predicated on the mortgage-securities market staying strong. The very next day, M&T Bank Corp. of Buffalo, N.Y., poured $82 million into a Deutsche deal known as Gemstone VII.

Within 10 months, M&T lost 98% of its investment, according to a lawsuit it has filed against Deutsche.

By that time, NovaStar was out of the lending business.

"Some of our employees were bearish on the housing market," a Deutsche spokesman said, "but they were transparent with their views and spoke at dozens of conferences and client meetings and published more than a dozen research reports which were distributed to thousands of institutional investors." There's no indication Mr. Lippmann was among those at Deutsche encouraging others to buy.

Deutsche is fighting M&T's fraud-and-misrepresentation suit in a New York state court. A Deutsche spokesman described M&T as "an extremely sophisticated investor" and active player in the mortgage market.

Deutsche, founded in Berlin in 1870, and occupying a skyscraper at 60 Wall Street in recent years, had a major role in the frothy rise and later crumbling of the U.S. housing market. In 2007, a peak year for production of mortgage deals known as collateralized debt obligations, or CDOs, Deutsche arranged about $42 billion of them, compared with $25 billion by Goldman, according to Thomson Reuters.

Signing off on the deals were lawyers supervised by Robert Khuzami, who ran Deutsche's U.S. legal division. He is now the SEC's enforcement chief and has vowed to pursue any financial wrongdoing by financial firms in areas such as mortgage securities, recusing himself if any matters relate to his old employer. The SEC said Mr. Khuzami declined to comment.

Deutsche analysts also were among the first to flag weaknesses in the market, as early as 2005. In a June 2006 research report, a Deutsche analyst recommended that investors reduce their exposure to subprime mortgage securities.

The bank, however, continued to build its mortgage-securities machine. It was a reliable assembly line, beginning with lenders like NovaStar, based in Kansas City, Mo. Deutsche agreed to provide a credit line to NovaStar in 2003, the year the home lender touted its "credit score override program." A co-founder of the lender says that it sought "to underwrite loans with a focus on ensuring the borrower could repay his or her debt."

As U.S. lenders churned out home loans, Deutsche bundled them into mortgage-backed bonds. It assembled these into CDOs, and built other CDOs out of derivatives that served as insurance on the bonds. Deutsche marketed the deals to conservative investors, such as insurers and banks, that had a positive view of the housing market.

Meanwhile, for hedge funds or other investors that wanted to bet on a housing downturn, Deutsche in 2005 and 2006 created a half-dozen deals that were collectively known as START.

One created in late 2005 was underpinned by about 100 home-mortgage bonds whose ratings were low investment grade. Deutsche put investors on notice that it "may deal in" any mortgage bond in the pool—that is, Deutsche might trade them itself.

Deutsche set up one 2005 START deal partly to facilitate bearish bets by Paulson & Co., the same hedge-fund firm whose role Goldman was accused of insufficiently disclosing, according to people familiar with the matter.

Paulson & Co. helped select assets that went into the Deutsche CDO and then bet against the assets, the people said. That was a role similar to the role Paulson played at Goldman.

Deutsche, like Goldman, didn't tell investors in its CDO that Paulson had helped pick the assets and was making a bearish bet.

A key difference: Goldman told investors that the assets were picked by an independent third party; Deutsche didn't use a third party or give its investors such assurances.

A spokesman for Deutsche said, "Both long and short investors were given the opportunity to select the specific collateral to which they were seeking exposure and mutually agreed on the CDO portfolio."

In the complicated START deals, Deutsche agreed to sell investors protection on mortgage securities, and then shielded itself by purchasing protection on those same securities. On two 2005 deals, including the one that helped facilitate Paulson's bets, the provider of the insurance was AIG.

For those deals, about $800 million of the federal bailout money given to AIG in 2008 was set aside to be paid to Deutsche as defaults occur. (In all, Deutsche received at least $8.5 billion from AIG, much of it for commercial real-estate deals.)

Conventional wisdom among investors had long held that it was difficult to short housing, that is, bet against it. But a new index called the ABX.HE made this much easier. It was created in January 2006 by Deutsche's Mr. Lippmann and bankers from 15 other big firms.

At a September 2006 dinner with hedge-fund clients at a Palm restaurant in New York, Mr. Lippmann said subprime-mortgage bonds were poised to fall.

By the end of 2006, Deutsche was using the ABX to make its own bearish housing bets.

The bank's finance chief told investors that as housing weakened in the first quarter of 2007, Deutsche avoided a net loss in part because of "a trading position, which was put on in...late 2006, shorting the ABX index, because our traders felt that the U.S. mortgage market was probably overheating and was potentially going to soften," according to a transcript of the May 2007 earnings conference call.

Deutsche's mortgage trading desk assembled other instruments that were tailor-made for betting on housing, either for or against. These were complex CDOs made up of derivatives linked to the performance of mortgage bonds plus some part of the ABX index.

Deutsche took the bearish side of these deals and sought to sell the bullish side of them to U.S. and European investors. The bank says the instruments weren't designed to enable it to short housing.

Not all investors who were pitched the bullish side were impressed. "My quick analysis of the portfolio suggests this is the biggest crock of s— I've seen yet!" one London trader who got the pitch responded by email to Deutsche. He added, "I won't be spending any more time on it, but wish you luck in moving some paper."

The client later was sent a new portfolio and found it improved, according to what one Deutsche employee told another one.

Then on Feb. 20, 2007, came word of the setbacks at NovaStar, the Kansas City subprime lender. In an email reply to hedge-fund manager Steve Eisman of FrontPoint Partners—the man who had described the worsening situation as "like the plague"—Deutsche's Mr. Lippmann encouraged Mr. Eisman to rev up his bets against mortgage bonds.

When Mr. Eisman asked for some recommendations, Mr. Lippmann wrote that he would have another bank employee send some.

"On CDOs, we think they are going much much wider," Mr. Lippmann wrote, referring to the already-widening cost of credit protection on mortgage bonds.

He said he was having trouble staying "short" housing because of a dwindling pipeline of mortgage products to bet against.

Mr. Eisman's bearish bets were lucrative for his hedge fund, which is owned by Morgan Stanley.

During this time, Deutsche continued trying to get other investors to go "long" the housing market—that is, it continued trying to sell them products likely to prosper if housing did.

M&T, the bank that agreed during this time to invest in a new Deutsche mortgage deal, alleges in its suit that a week before the purchase, a Deutsche salesman told it by phone that the "underlying structures in these bonds are built to withstand" adverse conditions.

In late 2007, M&T wrote down the value of its $82 million investment to just $1.9 million, according to its suit.

Deutsche said documents for the product had clearly warned that the assets in the pool were of poor quality.

As NovaStar's troubles mounted, it hired Deutsche in 2007 to help the subprime lender sell its mortgage-servicing operation. In late 2007, NovaStar abandoned home lending altogether.

Two months ago, Deutsche's Mr. Lippmann, the trader who had advised the hedge-fund manager to short mortgage bonds while his bank continued to push them, left to help form a hedge fund himself, one aimed at profiting from the mortgage mess.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 … 82598.html

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-08-03 07:02:19)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,816|6391|eXtreme to the maX
The bottom line is Goldman Sachs were utter morons to sell the packaged mortgages, and absolute dimwits to accept the bets against them.
Greed is blinding.

It will be a travesty if this happens, so it probably will.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2010-08-03 07:06:44)

Fuck Israel
Ilocano
buuuurrrrrrppppp.......
+341|6952

Personally speaking, regardless of the benefits, I think shorting is "evil".  Yes, I do mean that in the literal term.
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|6966|Disaster Free Zone

Ilocano wrote:

Personally speaking, regardless of the benefits, I think shorting is "evil".  Yes, I do mean that in the literal term.
Also illegal in Australia.
Phrozenbot
Member
+632|6900|do not disturb

Would derivatives be included as a scapegoat?

JohnG@lt wrote:

The Federal Government is still looking for scapegoats for the housing crisis. They went after Goldman Sachs already but they want more blood. So now they're going after one of the guys that had the balls to bet against the bubble because, obviously, he's the reason the bubble collapsed. How dare he spread bad vibes! The underlying foundation was so strong! It was going to last forever!
There isn't anything wrong with profiting from a collapsing bubble. Wasn't GS, however, betting against their own clients? I thought that was the issue the SEC had with them.
cpt.fass1
The Cap'n Can Make it Hap'n
+329|6981|NJ
They're looking to blame everyone but themselves. The bubble wouldn't have collapsed so much, if the governments didn't have to get there money. Everything they can tax they have taxed, now the cig tax is giant and it's for our own good but that's less money a smoker can spend on goods and services.

If you're going to tax people greatly they're better be something provided to said people. The economy has collapsed because we have exported jobs, or have given tax exempt to bigger companies like wallmart and mcdonalds.  If we had a decent job market and they didn't raise every tax they could(property, goods and services, etc) we might have had a fighting chance. Now with the Market flooded unemployment based on a brighter past is the only real livable income.
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|7001

Ilocano wrote:

Personally speaking, regardless of the benefits, I think shorting is "evil".  Yes, I do mean that in the literal term.
Isn't short selling essentially betting against the market?
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
Ilocano
buuuurrrrrrppppp.......
+341|6952

Cybargs wrote:

Ilocano wrote:

Personally speaking, regardless of the benefits, I think shorting is "evil".  Yes, I do mean that in the literal term.
Isn't short selling essentially betting against the market?
In general, highly targeted to specific stocks or funds.  But can easily be manipulated by insiders.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5643|London, England

Ilocano wrote:

Personally speaking, regardless of the benefits, I think shorting is "evil".  Yes, I do mean that in the literal term.
Why on earth do you think it's evil? Unless they are spreading propaganda to purposely drive down the price there is nothing illegal or immoral about it.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5643|London, England

Phrozenbot wrote:

Would derivatives be included as a scapegoat.
Yep, that's included too, even though there is nothing wrong with derivatives either. Basically, Wall Street went to Congress and is trying to ban everything they lost money on. Wall Street gets upset when it can't completely manipulate and control the market while making money in an effortless manner.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Phrozenbot
Member
+632|6900|do not disturb

Derivatives make an excellent scapegoat because apparently no one really understands them, or so they say. In some ways, I feel derivative markets are giant crap games played with monopoly money with the intent to win real money and lose nothing when bets go horribly wrong. Irregardless, the new financial reform bill, as far as I know, does essentially nothing to regulate derivatives. Congress is well known for not reading bills they pass, but maybe they were trying to prove to main street that the law is protecting the weak from the strong with this bill. I don't know and don't care anymore.

On a side note, I lol at the people here at this forum who talk about MBS and derivatives. Heh, no one even knew what they were, let alone spoke about them here until much later into the recession. Now they feel so opinionated that derivatives are such a terrible thing and that we should regulate Wall Street, as if that is the only correct remedy.
Ilocano
buuuurrrrrrppppp.......
+341|6952

JohnG@lt wrote:

Ilocano wrote:

Personally speaking, regardless of the benefits, I think shorting is "evil".  Yes, I do mean that in the literal term.
Why on earth do you think it's evil? Unless they are spreading propaganda to purposely drive down the price there is nothing illegal or immoral about it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/13/busin … r=1&em

"Last month, the Securities and Exchange Commission and Congress began investigating how Goldman and other firms had created bundles of mortgages known as collateralized debt obligations, or C.D.O.’s, that were sold to investors at the same time that the banks had privately bet against the instruments. Some of these C.D.O.’s later fell in value, creating losses for those clients who bought them — and profits for Goldman."

Regarding Derivatives.  Yeah, risk transparent.  Sorry, shell games to fool non-insiders.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5643|London, England

Ilocano wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Ilocano wrote:

Personally speaking, regardless of the benefits, I think shorting is "evil".  Yes, I do mean that in the literal term.
Why on earth do you think it's evil? Unless they are spreading propaganda to purposely drive down the price there is nothing illegal or immoral about it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/13/busin … r=1&em

"Last month, the Securities and Exchange Commission and Congress began investigating how Goldman and other firms had created bundles of mortgages known as collateralized debt obligations, or C.D.O.’s, that were sold to investors at the same time that the banks had privately bet against the instruments. Some of these C.D.O.’s later fell in value, creating losses for those clients who bought them — and profits for Goldman."
Right, because CDOs were simply bundled batches of the unrated portion of mortgage backed securities. They were worthless but S&P and Moody's slapped AAA ratings on them.

The people that made bundles of money shorted the CDOs because they saw they were trash.

I fail to see how that makes your point about shorting or derivatives being evil.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Ilocano
buuuurrrrrrppppp.......
+341|6952

JohnG@lt wrote:

Ilocano wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:


Why on earth do you think it's evil? Unless they are spreading propaganda to purposely drive down the price there is nothing illegal or immoral about it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/13/busin … r=1&em

"Last month, the Securities and Exchange Commission and Congress began investigating how Goldman and other firms had created bundles of mortgages known as collateralized debt obligations, or C.D.O.’s, that were sold to investors at the same time that the banks had privately bet against the instruments. Some of these C.D.O.’s later fell in value, creating losses for those clients who bought them — and profits for Goldman."
Right, because CDOs were simply bundled batches of the unrated portion of mortgage backed securities. They were worthless but S&P and Moody's slapped AAA ratings on them.

The people that made bundles of money shorted the CDOs because they saw they were trash.

I fail to see how that makes your point about shorting or derivatives being evil.
Name some of those who made bundles of money shorting the CDO's?  I'm not saying no one made money.  I'm saying just who were the ones who made tons.

Obviously Moody's and the like had no conflict of interest...
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5643|London, England

Phrozenbot wrote:

Derivatives make an excellent scapegoat because apparently no one really understands them, or so they say. In some ways, I feel derivative markets are giant crap games played with monopoly money with the intent to win real money and lose nothing when bets go horribly wrong. Irregardless, the new financial reform bill, as far as I know, does essentially nothing to regulate derivatives. Congress is well known for not reading bills they pass, but maybe they were trying to prove to main street that the law is protecting the weak from the strong with this bill. I don't know and don't care anymore.

On a side note, I lol at the people here at this forum who talk about MBS and derivatives. Heh, no one even knew what they were, let alone spoke about them here until much later into the recession. Now they feel so opinionated that derivatives are such a terrible thing and that we should regulate Wall Street, as if that is the only correct remedy.
Derivatives are simply insurance. There's nothing inherently wrong with them at all. They just have a big scary name that is unfamiliar to anyone who hasn't read a book on securities in the past fifteen years.

If I'm a farmer and there's a chance that my crops will fail due to drought in any given year, I might take out a derivative to insure against the failure. I pay a monthly premium and if there is a drought the person that sold me the derivative pays me whatever the payout value was. If there is no drought then they make money off the premium I paid.

The only reason derivatives (or Credit Default Swaps in government parlance) get a bad rap is because they were the core business that Enron spawned. Nevermind that derivatives were above board and Enron failed for entirely different reasons...
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5643|London, England

Ilocano wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Ilocano wrote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/13/business/13goldman.html?_r=1&em

"Last month, the Securities and Exchange Commission and Congress began investigating how Goldman and other firms had created bundles of mortgages known as collateralized debt obligations, or C.D.O.’s, that were sold to investors at the same time that the banks had privately bet against the instruments. Some of these C.D.O.’s later fell in value, creating losses for those clients who bought them — and profits for Goldman."
Right, because CDOs were simply bundled batches of the unrated portion of mortgage backed securities. They were worthless but S&P and Moody's slapped AAA ratings on them.

The people that made bundles of money shorted the CDOs because they saw they were trash.

I fail to see how that makes your point about shorting or derivatives being evil.
Name some of those who made bundles of money shorting the CDO's?  I'm not saying no one made money.  I'm saying just who were the ones who made tons.

Obviously Moody's and the like had no conflict of interest...
Read this:
https://books.google.com/books?id=eParwQ0YdrcC&printsec=frontcover&img=1&zoom=1&l=180

I finished it in two days. Lewis is a fantastic author and makes it easy to understand. He also has the background to talk about it intelligently since he was a bond trader in the 80s at the firm that created the first MBS (and wrote about that in a book called Liar's Poker which was published in 1989).

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-08-03 13:55:21)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Ilocano
buuuurrrrrrppppp.......
+341|6952

JohnG@lt wrote:

Ilocano wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:


Right, because CDOs were simply bundled batches of the unrated portion of mortgage backed securities. They were worthless but S&P and Moody's slapped AAA ratings on them.

The people that made bundles of money shorted the CDOs because they saw they were trash.

I fail to see how that makes your point about shorting or derivatives being evil.
Name some of those who made bundles of money shorting the CDO's?  I'm not saying no one made money.  I'm saying just who were the ones who made tons.

Obviously Moody's and the like had no conflict of interest...
Read this:
http://books.google.com/books?id=eParwQ … &l=180

I finished it in two days. Lewis is a fantastic author and makes it easy to understand. He also has the background to talk about it intelligently since he was a bond trader in the 80s at the firm that created the first MBS (and wrote about that in a book called Liar's Poker which was published in 1989).
Will do, since you seem to highly recommend it.

Derivatives in it's infancy were like insurance, yes.  But of late, extremely complex that only insiders could fully comprehend the risk.  Not as simple as going to the farm and looking at the books.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5643|London, England

Ilocano wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Ilocano wrote:


Name some of those who made bundles of money shorting the CDO's?  I'm not saying no one made money.  I'm saying just who were the ones who made tons.

Obviously Moody's and the like had no conflict of interest...
Read this:
http://books.google.com/books?id=eParwQ … &l=180

I finished it in two days. Lewis is a fantastic author and makes it easy to understand. He also has the background to talk about it intelligently since he was a bond trader in the 80s at the firm that created the first MBS (and wrote about that in a book called Liar's Poker which was published in 1989).
Will do, since you seem to highly recommend it.

Derivatives in it's infancy were like insurance, yes.  But of late, extremely complex that only insiders could fully comprehend the risk.  Not as simple as going to the farm and looking at the books.
If you don't finish that book cheering on the people shorting Wall Street you have no heart
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,816|6391|eXtreme to the maX
There is nothing wrong with what Lippmann did, nobody was forced to take his bets after all.
Fuck Israel
Phrozenbot
Member
+632|6900|do not disturb

JohnG@lt wrote:

Phrozenbot wrote:

Derivatives make an excellent scapegoat because apparently no one really understands them, or so they say. In some ways, I feel derivative markets are giant crap games played with monopoly money with the intent to win real money and lose nothing when bets go horribly wrong. Irregardless, the new financial reform bill, as far as I know, does essentially nothing to regulate derivatives. Congress is well known for not reading bills they pass, but maybe they were trying to prove to main street that the law is protecting the weak from the strong with this bill. I don't know and don't care anymore.

On a side note, I lol at the people here at this forum who talk about MBS and derivatives. Heh, no one even knew what they were, let alone spoke about them here until much later into the recession. Now they feel so opinionated that derivatives are such a terrible thing and that we should regulate Wall Street, as if that is the only correct remedy.
Derivatives are simply insurance. There's nothing inherently wrong with them at all. They just have a big scary name that is unfamiliar to anyone who hasn't read a book on securities in the past fifteen years.

If I'm a farmer and there's a chance that my crops will fail due to drought in any given year, I might take out a derivative to insure against the failure. I pay a monthly premium and if there is a drought the person that sold me the derivative pays me whatever the payout value was. If there is no drought then they make money off the premium I paid.

The only reason derivatives (or Credit Default Swaps in government parlance) get a bad rap is because they were the core business that Enron spawned. Nevermind that derivatives were above board and Enron failed for entirely different reasons...
I understand. AIG was an insurer. The concern with derivatives is how the insurance can be layered and become an inverted pyramid so to speak. I say giant crap game because the notional value of derivatives is in the hundreds of trillions of dollars. What that means, I leave that to the individual. Bailouts, however, are out of the question.

I have not read The Big Short yet, but I'm currently reading Liar's Poker.
Dilbert_X
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I say giant crap game because the notional value of derivatives is in the hundreds of trillions of dollars.
No-one is forced to play, Goldman Sachs, AIG thought they were clever and were going to win.
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Dilbert_X wrote:

I say giant crap game because the notional value of derivatives is in the hundreds of trillions of dollars.
No-one is forced to play, Goldman Sachs, AIG thought they were clever and were going to win.
Non one was forced to play, but the playground they played on affected the entire US economy.

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